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  #161  
Old 12-02-2006, 04:35 PM
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Ysbel- Thanks for such a great response. You know- you and I follow royal for exactly the same reasons! I am also really drawn to the traditional structure and institution that IS the Royal Houses. Culture these days is a little too disposable for my liking, eventhough the energy of change can be wonderful.

You also really helped me think about what I define as "modern"- and sincerity is a major factor. When I think about "Traditional " princesses, I think of individuals who are removed from the people. Someone who is what Henri M. seems to favour- a silent woman who is there for appearances only and acts only as an image or figurehead. I think that's why I prefer our current Crown Princesses- these are all women who seem to connect with people, have passion for specific social causes and who get involved with real people.

I agree with you totally- Sincerity is not always what it seems. We will never know for certain, although there certainly are royals who are known to be less than kind and warm in private! Maybe sincerity is something that is truly only known over time. Because we all have individual opinions about who is sincere, maybe we never all fully agree! Maxima is one of the people who appears, to me, to be quite sincere. She is quite extroverted and wears her heart on her sleeve- it's maybe a little easier, because of her personality, to see her emotions and to evalute if she is sincere in a particular situation. In contrast, Mary (who I believe is much more introverted) is more difficult to read but, I think, just as sincere!

Oppie makes sucha great point and I toss out two questions for discussion-

1. Was there ever a time when princesses were expected to "Just shut up and be pretty" and there were not any expectations (social involvement, for example)?

2. Is sincerity something we all evaluate in a princess? How do we determine this? How does it change how we evaluate Maxima?

Thanks again, Ysbel. As a "modernist" (!) I realize we're in much closer agreement than I intially thought!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
....I also think there is a difference between people who are impressed by royals who appear intimate and approachable in public and people like myself who aren't necessarily impressed. I work with marketing and sales people and many people I met who were friendly and seemingly open when they were in front of a group of people for a short amount of time turned out to be extremely distant and noncommunicative when they were in a one on one situation or when they were with people over a long period of time. That doesn't mean that they're necessarily bad people or fake but it does mean I don't assume that if I knew one of these princesses privately, that they would appear as warm and friendly as they do on camera. ....

Thanks for bringing up the question. You made me think of things I haven't thought before.
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  #162  
Old 12-02-2006, 04:37 PM
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Thank you Maxie, you read my mind!
I disbelieve there are people which think that role of crown princess is something like you said. People, which thinks that moral code and etiquette from 14.th century is much more important than monarchy.

Everything chages. Oppinions too. So sorry if I should say this so, but I think someone overslept the century and still thinks that the most important thing in Monarchy is: "have blue blood and look like barbie doll. And man (prince) should do the work and be that most important."
Sorry but it makes me laugh
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  #163  
Old 12-02-2006, 05:08 PM
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Job description: shut up and be pretty

It is nice that so many posters do attach so many wonderful qualifications to Máxima.

But as I stated, there is no job description for a spouse to the Heir. There is nothing which states that she should be lovely, full of empathy, interested, have a heart for good causes and whatever more.

She is just 'the wife of'. No more, no less. The job description on the application form for becoming a caissière in a supermarket is more demanding! Diana Spencer, Camilla Shand and Mette-Marit Tjessem Hoiby are the proofs that you need nothing to become a Princess. Let us not forget the 19-years old Princess Emma zu Waldeck und Pyrmont who married the 62-years old King Willem III and became a Regentess for her daughter Queen Wilhelmina. Without any qualification, without any education and in a strange country.

Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti was lucky that the eye of The Prince of Orange felt on her, during the Feria de Abril in Sevilla, in 1999. This has made her one of the world's most privileged persons. So is the situation. No more, no less.

And now I happen to be one of those citizens in the Kingdom of the Netherlands who is watching how his future head of state is performing. Sometimes with his wife next to him. And I form my own opinion on them. Sometimes positive. Sometimes not positive.
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  #164  
Old 12-02-2006, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
1. Was there ever a time when princesses were expected to "Just shut up and be pretty" and there were not any expectations (social involvement, for example)?
There once was a female royal. She was the daughter of a King and she married a ruler of a smaller area within that kingdom. Not one for standing around and looking pretty she survived a murder attempt at the age of 15, she signed treaties on her husbands behalf (thus suggesting that she was more in control then her husband) and after her husbands death she countinued to rule for eight more years and is recorded in history as one of the best military leaders of the time.

Her name was Aethelfleda and she was born in 872 or 879, I don't think there was ever a time to stand around and look pretty.
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  #165  
Old 12-02-2006, 05:25 PM
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There are only two persons named in the Constitution and these are The King and the Heir Apparent.

Only these two do matter. The first one is the head of state, by birthright. The other is the future head of state, by birthright.

The spouses of a minister, of a governor, of a mayor (in the Netherlands we do not elect ministers, governors and mayors, by the way) may happen to accompany their spouses so now and then. They have no any other role than shut up and be pretty. That is no difference with Maria Shriver, the wife of Governor Schwarzenegger.

That many of these ladies do have their own careers or do a lot for charity. Wonderful. Applause to them. But if they have chosen to remain completely out of the limelight. Also okay. Also applause.

Now there happens to be a country in Northwest Europe, at the North Sea. When you marries their head of state, or their future head of state, you receive your very own independent budget. Believe it or not. Why? Just because you are 'the wife of'.

Do you need to buy dozens of couture? Eeerh... no.... Prince Claus or Prince Bernhard also did receive the same lavish sums. Year in, year out. They did it with the same costumes, shoes and ties. Even in the last 15 years, when Prince Claus was more in hospital than out and about. Or in the last 24 years, when Prince Bernhard was the spouse of an abdicated Queen. They received millions.

Why? Just because they happen to be 'the spouse of'.
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  #166  
Old 12-02-2006, 06:01 PM
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The point is not what they receive but what they do for recieving that money. Here in America ( the continent i mean) we pay governors to make their job. If i lived in a monarchical country, i would be very upset if royals would just shut up and show a smile in public acts, as if they were puppets.So they are not paid to spend their money in fashion, but as a means to work for their country,and that´s what Maxima does,pregnant, dishevelled, tired,exhausted or whatever she may look
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  #167  
Old 12-02-2006, 06:07 PM
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It's all very pretty that the only two people who are named in the constitution are the King and the Heir Apparent, but to get a Heir Apparent you need a certain (in this case) woman to function as -well, let's call it- womb. If that's not a qualification I don't know what it is! Receiving millions for doing nothing and just being the wife of? Ehm... It all seems so natural and logical: prince marries girl, girl gets pregnant, a whole country starts cheering etc. But what it's really like you get to see in cases like Masako's or Fabiola's when the woman isn't able to produce the wanted heir. Hopefully these ladies have a happy life with the money they got for doing nothing and being the wife of.

I think we can at least say we agree about one thing, albeit from a different point of view: this isn't a pretty system, is it?
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  #168  
Old 12-02-2006, 06:07 PM
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Good point. I know that if I were expected to be working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and every single move I made was reported by media and open to free public criticism, I would expect fair compensation. I would expect a few perks for what would be, essentially, giving up my freedom.

Henri- if only the the monarch and the heir apparent matter, why do you make such a big deal and go to such great lengths to criticise Maxima?
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  #169  
Old 12-02-2006, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.

The spouses of a minister, of a governor, of a mayor (in the Netherlands we do not elect ministers, governors and mayors, by the way) may happen to accompany their spouses so now and then. They have no any other role than shut up and be pretty. That is no difference with Maria Shriver, the wife of Governor Schwarzenegger.
is that the image you want maxima to have? just someone who shuts up and look pretty? that's a rather chauvinistic and "old" way of thinking. i really support that maxima, mathide, rania or all the other female royals who stand up for their countries in conferences around the world to support not just charity but ambitious projects. it really shows how clever they are.

i'd definetely wouldn't like maxima to stand next to willem and be pretty. that's just not modern and not productive at all. as you said, if you pay someone lavish quantities of money, i'd at least ask for someone who speaks for helself...
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  #170  
Old 12-02-2006, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azile
You also really helped me think about what I define as "modern"- and sincerity is a major factor. When I think about "Traditional " princesses, I think of individuals who are removed from the people. Someone who is what Henri M. seems to favour- a silent woman who is there for appearances only and acts only as an image or figurehead. I think that's why I prefer our current Crown Princesses- these are all women who seem to connect with people, have passion for specific social causes and who get involved with real people.

I agree with you totally- Sincerity is not always what it seems. We will never know for certain, although there certainly are royals who are known to be less than kind and warm in private! Maybe sincerity is something that is truly only known over time. Because we all have individual opinions about who is sincere, maybe we never all fully agree! Maxima is one of the people who appears, to me, to be quite sincere. She is quite extroverted and wears her heart on her sleeve- it's maybe a little easier, because of her personality, to see her emotions and to evalute if she is sincere in a particular situation. In contrast, Mary (who I believe is much more introverted) is more difficult to read but, I think, just as sincere!

Oppie makes sucha great point and I toss out two questions for discussion-

1. Was there ever a time when princesses were expected to "Just shut up and be pretty" and there were not any expectations (social involvement, for example)?

2. Is sincerity something we all evaluate in a princess? How do we determine this? How does it change how we evaluate Maxima?

Thanks again, Ysbel. As a "modernist" (!) I realize we're in much closer agreement than I intially thought!
azile, another great point and two great questions!

Well to pose my humble answers:

To number 1, were princesses ever expected to be pretty? Well when princes were expected to marry royal princesses, they didn't have any guarantee that the royal princess would be pretty, just that she would be royal. Some princes got lucky, like Edward VII (husband of the beautiful Queen Alexandra) or the Emperor of Austria, (husband of the enchanting Empress Sisi) but more often they were like Henry VIII when he married Anne of Cleves sight unseen. I'm sure she was a lovely person but Anne of Cleves was a bit dowdy.

Actually it can be said that royal consorts had more influence and power in previous days because they often stood in the place of their husbands who were absolute rulers. When the husband was away or incapitated, he often left his wife in charge as regent. That meant she ruled the kingdom. Henry VIII appointed his Queen, Catherine of Aragon as regent when he went to compete in the Field of the Cloth of Gold, and he later appointed his sixth Queen, Katharine Parr, as regent when he went off to war in Europe. Charles V le Sage of France named his Queen as regent in case he died before his heir came of age although she died before him. These men did not see their wives as just window dressing IMO.

Marie of Guise, dowager Queen of Scotland and Anne of Austria, dowager Queen of France both ruled their prospective countries after their husbands died leaving a child as heir.

and to your question number 2, how do we define sincerity.

Sincerity, to me, means that a person gives off the same impression as they really are. That doesn't necessarily mean that I like them; somebody could look like a nasty person and really be nasty (that's sincerity but not nice) but still I wouldn't like them.

Actually I think Queen Beatrix gives off incredible sincerity. She is the inheritor of the House of Orange and she is aware of the importance of the institution and her role in preserving it. At the same time, she cares greatly about people. She cares about her family, she was sincerely devastated when her beloved husband died and she seems to care about other people. Her care for both the institution and for individual people is what makes me believe in her sincerity. The needs of the institution and the needs of the individual are often at odds and I can see her going back and forth between the two; honoring the institution and caring for the individual and trying to figure out how to make it all work; much the same as does a mother does between two children who are very different but she adores equally.

Does she always make the right decision? That would be impossible but I believe she is sincere in her choices and sincere in her dedication to both her heritage and her family and the people around her.
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  #171  
Old 12-02-2006, 07:22 PM
Henri M.'s Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosana
The point is not what they receive but what they do for recieving that money. Here in America ( the continent i mean) we pay governors to make their job. If i lived in a monarchical country, i would be very upset if royals would just shut up and show a smile in public acts, as if they were puppets.So they are not paid to spend their money in fashion, but as a means to work for their country,and that´s what Maxima does,pregnant, dishevelled, tired,exhausted or whatever she may look
Yes you pay governors. Do you pay for their wives too?
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  #172  
Old 12-02-2006, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxie
Receiving millions for doing nothing and just being the wife of? Ehm... It all seems so natural and logical: prince marries girl, girl gets pregnant, a whole country starts cheering etc.

I think we can at least say we agree about one thing, albeit from a different point of view: this isn't a pretty system, is it?
No it isn't a pretty system. It is an expensive studfarm for royals. The whole point was that the Government thinks it is "undesirable" that the spouse of the King or the Heir Apparent does depend on others for his/her income. He/she should not even rely on the The King or the Heir-Apparent.

Anyway, I only ask Máxima to be a grand Princess of Orange. And she can do it. There is no other royal lady in Europe, except for Camilla, who has the chance to glitz, glam and ooh and aah so much as the Princess of Orange.
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  #173  
Old 12-02-2006, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azile
Henri- if only the the monarch and the heir apparent matter, why do you make such a big deal and go to such great lengths to criticise Maxima?
Because, apart from her undoubtedly grand days, she has declined in her royal class act and appearance. And there is no any need for that.
A sort of sleaze has crawled in the way Máxima performs now. I wished she would look to her mother-in-law or her aunt Princess Margriet who manages it to remain perfectionistic and take everything with exceptional seriousness.
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  #174  
Old 12-02-2006, 08:20 PM
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Henri, you are entitled to your opinion but it is not appropriate to use the word "sleaze" in association with any royal on this forum.

According to the Miriam-Webster dictionary, the definition of sleazy is :

1 a : lacking firmness of texture : FLIMSY b : carelessly made of inferior materials : SHODDY
2 a : marked by low character or quality <sleazy tabloids> b : SQUALID, DILAPIDATED <sleazy bars>

Using this word may thus be taken as an attack on Maxima's character and this is not OK.
Since your opinions seem to be rooted in your commentary on Maxima's appearance and not her character, I suggest you find a different word.
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  #175  
Old 12-02-2006, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azile
Henri, you are entitled to your opinion but it is not appropriate to use the word "sleaze" in association with any royal on this forum.

According to the Miriam-Webster dictionary, the definition of sleazy is :

1 a : lacking firmness of texture : FLIMSY b : carelessly made of inferior materials : SHODDY
2 a : marked by low character or quality <sleazy tabloids> b : SQUALID, DILAPIDATED <sleazy bars>

Using this word may thus be taken as an attack on Maxima's character and this is not OK.
Since your opinions seem to be rooted in your commentary on Maxima's appearance and not her character, I suggest you find a different word.
I would go for meaning 1a and 1b. And of course on her royal appearance. There is no way I find Máxima inferior or sleazy of character. I'm sure she has a much better character than I have.

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  #176  
Old 12-02-2006, 09:21 PM
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Now there happens to be a country in Northwest Europe, at the North Sea. When you marries their head of state, or their future head of state, you receive your very own independent budget. Believe it or not. Why? Just because you are 'the wife of'.
So does the First Lady of the United States.
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  #177  
Old 12-02-2006, 09:36 PM
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I believe Henri M's points are valid though it is also easy to see why some might disagree. It all depends on whether we want our monarchies to continue and with such spouses is this going to result in promoting celebrity status or maintaining the political systems that are in place. Will the downgrading of monarchies to apparently go with the modern flow not result in the population ultimately asking why we have to pay for "celebs" when in actual fact celebrities usually work for their money themselves. In the past, money came into the royal houses with the marriages - now it seems to go out.
Maxima was vibrant though with a calmer appeal to begin with, but things have changed- perhaps she feels confident; she has done her job and is now prepared to laugh all the way to the bank.
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  #178  
Old 12-02-2006, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
Yes you pay governors. Do you pay for their wives too?
We do, here in Mexico they also work!!
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  #179  
Old 12-02-2006, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
Yes you pay governors. Do you pay for their wives too?
No, because they are citizens like anyone else and are allowed to work. It´s not the case with Maxima; it´s understandable that she receives a sum of money to fulfill her duties, although i find it exaggerated.But the same happens with other monarchies; in Spain e.x. this is a common argument among republicans: the excessive cost to maintain the Royal House.
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  #180  
Old 12-03-2006, 02:31 AM
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Here, when we are paying taxes, they are going on our gouvernment. And we can't wait that First Lady, or wife of prime minister would buy their dress in their own, from their own money. So taxes go for wifes too.

That's the charm of fairytale, which makes monarchy. When you live in republic, no one cares for homeless, no one higlights important things. In monarchies, you are paying for royal family, which makes your country better. It's simple- isn't it.

As I'm reading your posts Henri, I'm getting feel, that you just dislike wife of someone, because she doesn't match to your ideal of royal wife. Times when woman could only smile are in the past. Princess Diana started this waterfall of working european princess. Also not only european, but also some womans in Asia (especially q. Rania) are working for charities, they are higlithing people in need, they are making on conferences about finacies.

Because (if you like it or not) woman is always catching eye more. And they are using the public interest for good thing. W-A is maybe royal by blood, but Máxima isn't. She became a princess from day to day and now she has to work for everyone. She can do nothing. But then people will hate her.
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