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  #101  
Old 11-21-2006, 05:44 AM
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I not think that royals have to be elegant in order to be royal. We can harly call Margrethe II, Elizabeth II, Beatrix, Fabiola, etc. elegant but they radiate a sense of royalty which is hard to miss IMO. Beatrix in real life and on film has a certain way of bearing which seems regal to me, the way she walks, dresses, talks etc. Not to be compared to any peasant woman that I ever saw anyway... To me her charisma seems strong as well, now but especially in the early days of her reign.

The Queen has had some image problems indeed, she was regarded as a CEO of the Royal Family Inc. instead of the mother of the nation, but that changed before the marriage of the PoO and before her widowhood. The Queen seems to have softened her public image and in general people like and respect her. As you compare her to a peasant woman it might be interesting to note that the complaint in the Netherlands was that the Queen was to majestic and regal!

The court is not into 'selling' royals, so neither Maxima nor Beatrix are 'sold'. HM once commented in an interview that she preferred respect and content over short-lived popularity, and that is the aproach which the court has taken with ALL members during Beatrix reign (and probably before to). Maxima is a student of Beatrix in this: preferring to dig herself in a topic deeply for example. But we can also see it in Laurentien who has become the symbol for the fight against illiteracy here or with Willem-Alexander who throws much of his energies in water managment. For this he was rediculed in the beginning a bit but when people saw what he actually has to say public opinion changed IMO. And the ministery of Traffic and water-state now has to change their policies towards dutch watermanagment also due to the PoO and the advice he has given lately whoch were widely discussed in newspapers and on television.

I also would like to correct the image that you create that HM was/is not popular. That never was the case, it is just that there were other members of her family that were more popular in polls then HM: Queen Juliana and now Princess Maxima. Of course one can wonder if any value should be attached to such popularity polls anyway.
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  #102  
Old 11-21-2006, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
I not think that royals have to be elegant in order to be royal. We can harly call Margrethe II, Elizabeth II, Beatrix, Fabiola, etc. elegant but they radiate a sense of royalty which is hard to miss IMO. Beatrix in real life and on film has a certain way of bearing which seems regal to me, the way she walks, dresses, talks etc. Not to be compared to any peasant woman that I ever saw anyway... To me her charisma seems strong as well, now but especially in the early days of her reign.

The Queen has had some image problems indeed, she was regarded as a CEO of the Royal Family Inc. instead of the mother of the nation, but that changed before the marriage of the PoO and before her widowhood. The Queen seems to have softened her public image and in general people like and respect her. As you compare her to a peasant woman it might be interesting to note that the complaint in the Netherlands was that the Queen was to majestic and regal!
OK, if elegance is reduced to fashion only than I change my sentence into:
IMO she has no inborn regalness.
I am sorry if I offend anyone with my opinion but in my eyes Beatrix simply has no inborn regalness and charisma.
To me she looks like a peasant woman trying to appear like a queen with all that motorcades, music..... royal attributes.
Actually I think at times her way of bearing and the way how she dresses and talks make her look a bit fake and ridiculous.

And I think it was her insisting on those royal attributes and her therefore supposed arrogance that caused complaints that she is too regal - in contrast to her mother.
But perhaps Beatrix had the feeling she needed those majestic attributes to appear majestic, to give her natural appearance that sense of royalty.

Still, I want to stress out that I like Beatrix and think she has great personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
I also would like to correct the image that you create that HM was/is not popular. That never was the case, it is just that there were other members of her family that were more popular in polls then HM: Queen Juliana and now Princess Maxima. Of course one can wonder if any value should be attached to such popularity polls anyway.
Regarding popularity my impression is not based on popularity polls
but of course on what I see and hear of her in German TV,
(for example a documentary on her 60th birthday)
and what I learnt when I lived in the Netherlands for 3 years, from 1989 to 1992.
I did not meet one person who really liked or cared for her.
Of course this may not have been how the majority felt,
but I thought it was quite significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
The court is not into 'selling' royals, so neither Maxima nor Beatrix are 'sold'. HM once commented in an interview that she preferred respect and content over short-lived popularity, and that is the aproach which the court has taken with ALL members during Beatrix reign (and probably before to).
Perhaps "selling" was not the right expression.
But all royal courts have to promote themselves nowadays.
And the Dutch court certainly takes great care about the image of its members.
I mean, hunting but no photographers allowed.
Leting the press know whenever they do something "political correct".
And so on.
Of course they are not after short-lived popularity,
it's long-lived popularity they are after.
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  #103  
Old 11-21-2006, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ricarda
Both times I actually thought she looked quite grumpy and
only seemed to smile when she noticed a camera in front of her.
Therefore her smile appeared a bit fake to me and not as natural
as in the beginning or for example at the royal weddings in 2004.
That's the same feeling I have about Letizia. On her wedding day, she just smiled when she realised there was a camera

But now, back to Máxima
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  #104  
Old 11-21-2006, 10:03 AM
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It is true that the majority of the Dutch is eeerh... let's say 'positively indifferent' when it comes to the monarchy in conversations on office, in the train, on birthday parties. Of course there is the eternal nagging about the costs of the monarchy 'and all the theatre'.

At the same time the Dutch swallow everything about the royal family. Every hiccup is reported in the media. There are magazines, a flood of books, weekly television programs, daily tv-magazines with royal news and special reports on important visits and -of course- hours, and hours, and hours of coverage when someone has died, is born or will marry.

Princes' Day and Queen's Day are annual highdays of the monarchy which attracts a flood of public and a dominating media coverage on that day. This is all contrasting by the apparent 'positive indifference' most people will show.
You will not find a Dutchman jumping up in the train and shout 'Leve de Koningin!' but at the very same time there is no people alike the Dutch who dress themselves completely in orange and gets completely mad at the Queen's birthday.

Contradicting signals. I agree.
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  #105  
Old 11-21-2006, 11:40 AM
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I think the contradictional signals have a lot to do with the character of the nation. For example if people show a display of nationalism/ proudness of their nation they are greeted with mock by most people. Little dutch people will ever claim to be proud of their country or to have national feelings (considered as a sign of ineducatedness by many) and yet, when a foreigner dares to say a negative thing about the country the dutchman will feel offended, much more then the attitude will make you believe.

The same aplies for the national symbol: the royal family. Not many people will publicaly say they love the royals for example, and yet around 90% support the monarchy. Not in line with what many announce among collegues, as they fear to be considered small-minded, dumb or a hopeless romantic by openly confessing such things.

As Henri pointed out, the media interest is very high, and IMO still growing. The biggest national newspaper for example have an article featuring a member of the RF almost every day, something which was not normal in the 80-ties for example.
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  #106  
Old 11-21-2006, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
What do you mean with tons of vacations Princess_Olga? Are you referring to an article that apeared some years ago in the yellow-press (Prive if I recall correctly), who listed the holidays of the crownprincely couple. If so: 1) Most of the 'vacations' were just a weekend, 2) whatever they do in their own time is their own matter. As long as they are representing the country a fair number of times (as they are doing) I do not care how much holidays they have. 3) If that impression comes from 'Prive' I have to say that that is not the most reliable source.
yes I actually do mean the article in Prive. Like you, I typically am very sceptical when it comes to the gossip media. But in this case there should be at least an ounce of reality to that article because as it turned out years later, the magazine Prive had a well placed informant at the Palace at that time.

Or, rather, the <wife> of a well-placed servant at the palace, who had access to the Royals' personal calendars. Unbeknownst to her husband, this spouse would not only snoop into those calendars--which had all trips documented--, she would blab about them to the journalists at Prive!

This is why, for example, Prive managed to have a paparazzo waiting at the right moment on a Roman street to snap a picture of then royal fiancee Maxima Zorreguieta exiting exclusive Italian designer Valentino's store in Rome, when she was there for a fitting of her wedding dress! Before that, the public didn't know who the princess-to-be had chosen as the designer for her wedding dress, that was a well-kept secret until then!

This is how Prive was well-informed, the first years of WA and Maxima's marriage, of all the trips they took, the vacations they had, etc. Until the spouse of this royal employee was caught, that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
I think that the reason Maxima apeared less in public in the beginning of her marriage then now is simply that she did what the court anounced: orientate herself on dutch society, mosly behind the scenes. The Prince of Orange had a comparable amount of duties before his mariage to now IMO.
That's entirely possible and absolutely the most likely scenario but how are we to know for certain this was the case? I think these people are entitled to their privacy and that informant blabbing was certainly wrong wrong wrong. But all the same when they receive the exhorbitant amount from the public that they do, why shouldn't we hold these people a bit accountable, especially in the democracy that is the Netherlands, and especially for a gig that's couldn't be more nepotistic in nature?

But anyways, back to the present: WA and his spouse seem to be doing a decent enough job these days so I'm not complaining!
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  #107  
Old 11-21-2006, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
I think the contradictional signals have a lot to do with the character of the nation. For example if people show a display of nationalism/ proudness of their nation they are greeted with mock by most people. Little dutch people will ever claim to be proud of their country or to have national feelings (considered as a sign of ineducatedness by many) and yet, when a foreigner dares to say a negative thing about the country the dutchman will feel offended, much more then the attitude will make you believe.

The same aplies for the national symbol: the royal family. Not many people will publicaly say they love the royals for example, and yet around 90% support the monarchy. Not in line with what many announce among collegues, as they fear to be considered small-minded, dumb or a hopeless romantic by openly confessing such things.

As Henri pointed out, the media interest is very high, and IMO still growing. The biggest national newspaper for example have an article featuring a member of the RF almost every day, something which was not normal in the 80-ties for example.
Marengo and Henri make great points, I'd like to add to that the Dutch are more traditional than they like to admit or than outsiders realize, hence their sympathy, at the end of the day, for traditions like the RF.

But back on topic: I think that somehow, this increasing media attention to all things royal is getting to be over the top and disconcerting. Although of course I realize (and I wish sometimes that Alexander and his mom would realize) that they would be nowhere without this weirdly symbiotic relationship between royals and the press. Maxima, on the other hand seems to have an inborn understanding of the role of the media in the fact she has this gig at all! I didn't see the footage though of Sverre's baptism, so perhaps my judgment is wrong here..
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  #108  
Old 11-22-2006, 05:36 AM
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I saw some footage of Sverre's baptism and I did not think she looked grumpy. Just a bit distracted maybe as she can not understand any norwegian. But he did her best to look interested (and probably was).
-

The orientation of Maxima on Dutch society was shown in a documantary in NOVA when she was also interviewed by Jeroen Pauw. The film footage showed Maxima going to an area in Rotterdam, fgoing to a prison for young female delinquents etc, which I have never seen before (and of which no pictures were released), so it is safe to asume she worked hard out of the limelight.
-

I think you are right about the court having problems adjusting to the recent media frenzy. We saw this in the handling of the Margarita case for example. It was blown out of proportion by the media and became a circus, but the court did nothing to control the damage IMO (though in the end the damage was controled, dispite of the court).
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  #109  
Old 11-22-2006, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricarda
(it took a time until I convinced myself that daughters should not be blamed for the "sins" of their fathers )
.
Sins?? Which sins? Being the Minister of Agriculture?
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  #110  
Old 11-22-2006, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Princess Maxima
Sins?? Which sins? Being the Minister of Agriculture?
The 'sin' is having made a choice for not having had any idea about repression and crimes against human rights committed under the Junta.

Not that Jorge Zorreguieta himelf can be blamed or accuded of personal crimes and misdemeanours. But his choice for the Moviemento Nacional and his membership of the government in a time of brutal oppression has met a lot of protests over here.
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  #111  
Old 11-22-2006, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Maxima
Sins?? Which sins? Being the Minister of Agriculture?
Minister of Agriculture of a government that committed genocide, and that tortured and disappeared 30.000 people for their way of thinking.That sounds terrible, doesn´t it, maybe poor Mr. Zorreguieta could find another job at that time.
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  #112  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:56 PM
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I like Máxima and the way she behaves during official engagements.
She always looks friendly and nice (maybe sometimes she makes fashion mistakes, but who does not?)
I don't know why suddenly so many persons are complaining about her!
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  #113  
Old 11-23-2006, 01:17 PM
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The impression that crown princess Maxima gives to me is that she must be a very warm, nice and happy person.
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  #114  
Old 11-23-2006, 02:19 PM
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I like Maxima too.
Maybe some people just think that happiness and sence for fun doesn't match to role of crown princess, but I think, that's what makes Maxima so popular. She makes her job better than other boring princesses and she brings a new fresh wind.
So Maxima for me wins in full line- like princess, like wife and like mother.
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  #115  
Old 11-23-2006, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mims111
I like Maxima too.
Maybe some people just think that happiness and sence for fun doesn't match to role of crown princess, but I think, that's what makes Maxima so popular. She makes her job better than other boring princesses and she brings a new fresh wind.
So Maxima for me wins in full line- like princess, like wife and like mother.
I totally agree! She seems to bring joy wherever she's going to! And the best thing: Her daughters seem to have their mother's character! Amalia and Alexia also smile everytime we see them
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  #116  
Old 11-23-2006, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess_Beatrix
I like Máxima and the way she behaves during official engagements.
She always looks friendly and nice (maybe sometimes she makes fashion mistakes, but who does not?)
I don't know why suddenly so many persons are complaining about her!
She is undoubtedly friendly and nice and warm and funny.
But she is not la Celebrita Máxima. She is the wife to the future King of the Netherlands. See yesterday's appearance in that tacky shiny white outfit, with her hairdo totally blown up. Maybe en vogue and maybe modern.

But not what I expect from Sa Altesse Royale la Princesse d'Orange. That is my main point of criticism.
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  #117  
Old 11-23-2006, 03:02 PM
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Ehm, almost every princess's made fashion mistake. And some are making them one by one.
I think Maxima loves bright colors- like Mette-Marit loves darker colors, Mary loves something elegant, but not usual...
So I think she really isn't "la Celebrita Máxima." She just likes her style of clothing, and she can't do nothing with big attention of media. And also she can't do nothing with wind.

She will do (she is already doing) great wife to Willem- Alexander, to future king of Netherlands.
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  #118  
Old 11-23-2006, 03:30 PM
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I like Maxima, She appears very smart, her speeches are by far the best of the Crown Princesses (maybe she has a fantastic speech writer ) she has spark and she seems genuine. But honeslty lately her apprances has gone dooooown and I dont think any other of her fellow Crown Princesses has her resources. Even if you are pregnant you can comb your hair and try to not outbling Jay-Z in a day event. If it is windy put it in a ponytail or a chignon, or use some hairspray (Im sure her mother in law can recomend a good label ) We almost never see the older guard (Sonja, Silvia Beatrix, Sofia etc) looking like they have just entered a hurricane storm. Such apparance as this really distracts from the event,Instead of wondering what the event is about I wonder what is she doing at the floor
http://ppe-agency.com/500px/Nov2006/06112207.jpg
and where is her face
http://ppe-agency.com/500px/Nov2006/06112215.jpg

Well one word one cant put on her is Boring
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  #119  
Old 11-23-2006, 03:55 PM
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Amen to that.

Her mother-in-law is already performing public duties for 50 years, as Princess and later as Queen. On hot days, cold days, stormy days, rainy days, dry days.

Always and ever she tries to look impeccable. Because she knows what impression she wants to make. First and foremost (so said her son Prince Constantijn) any public act must be done in a dignified style. Friendly but distant. Dignified but human.

Máxima for sure is extremely friendly. And extremely human. I do miss the distance and the dignified attitude which surrounds Queen Beatrix. Sometimes even Laurentien, with all her strange outfits à la laurentinoise, radiates more dignity than Máxima!
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Old 11-23-2006, 06:23 PM
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Well, my perception of dignity a la Laurentinoise is troubled by her appearing as an airoplane, though very friendly, not exactly royal either. Neither are many of her clothing choises, some of which seem more suitable for the circus then for an official duty as a representant of the Dutch state. But still I value Laurentien as a member of the RF as she seems to have a cause and tries to put much of her energy in it, which is IMHO much more important then her clothes.

-
Though I do not like Maxima's shiny outfit of yesterday, I fail to see the horror of it all. IMO she is a rather conservative dresser and compared to the Dutch women I see at work, on the street, television etc. she dresses with a formality that is only surpassed by HM The Queen, her ladies-in-waiting and female CDA/VVD politicians who passed the age of 60.

-
Concrete hairdo's is not so much of this generation anymore either, and I sure hope she will never start being as exchuberent with the harspray as her mother-in-law, Queen Fabiola or Raine Spencer. Personally I would prefer her to put the hair in a knot, like the Duchess of Brabant usually does.
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