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  #181  
Old 12-03-2006, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mims111

. Princess Diana started this waterfall of working european princess.
No she definitely did not!!!!! Princesses were working in charities long before Diana came on the scene. Queen Mary made this comment one "We ( as in the royal 'we') are never tired and we love hospitals" Princess Anne became president of 'Save the Children' in 1970 and made trips to Africa from the early 70's and yet I've never seen the press write that Diana followed in Anne's footsteps. It seems that any princess doing charity work is following Diana, totally untrue. Diana merely followed the example of the princesses before her, she just got more publicity for it!

Getting back to Maxima, she's fine the way she is. She connects with people, she's intelligent and she has a sense of history for the role she's in.
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  #182  
Old 12-03-2006, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
The spouses...have no other role than shut up and be pretty...
Henri, since I'm assuming you don't expect male spouses to "be pretty", your comments refer to females and reek misogyny and disdain. That attitude to women is plain ugly.
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  #183  
Old 12-03-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Henri, since I'm assuming you don't expect male spouses to "be pretty", your comments refer to females and reek misogyny and disdain. That attitude to women is plain ugly.
Nonsense.
Denis Thatcher had to shut up and be pretty next to Margaret.
Prince Philip has to shut up and be pretty next to Elizabeth.
Prince Henrik has to shut up and be pretty next to Margrethe.
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  #184  
Old 12-03-2006, 08:54 AM
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Máxima and her own independent income

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosana
But the same happens with other monarchies; in Spain e.x.
I believe there is no other spouse from a Heir, than Máxima, who has her very own independent budget, independently from her spouse.
So Máxima seems to be an exception amongst all other spouses to a Heir.

Correct me when I am wrong, but it was my understanding Letizia, Mary, Mathilde, Mette-Marit, Masako and Camilla are dependent on their spouse's budgets.

According to the Royal House website the annual incomes are:
the Prince of Orange € 977.000,-- (appr. $ 1,270,100.--)
the spouse of the Prince of Orange € 863.000,-- (appr. $ 1,121,900.--)

This means that the princely couple receives a lavish sum of $ 200,000.-- per month. That are an awful lots of Dior and De Givenchy coutures! No need for an exploded hairdo and johnnie&anita tigerprint dresses.
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  #185  
Old 12-03-2006, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
I believe there is no other spouse from a Heir, than Máxima, who has her very own independent budget, independently from her spouse.
So Máxima seems to be an exception amongst all other spouses to a Heir.

Correct me when I am wrong, but it was my understanding Letizia, Mary, Mathilde, Mette-Marit, Masako and Camilla are dependent on their spouse's budgets.

According to the Royal House website the annual incomes are:
the Prince of Orange € 977.000,-- (appr. $ 1,270,100.--)
the spouse of the Prince of Orange € 863.000,-- (appr. $ 1,121,900.--)
Both Prince Henrik and Crown Princess Mary gets 10 % of their spouses income as their own, Henrik gets about 6,1 million danish kroner (820 000 Euro) and Mary gets 1.5 million danish kroner (200 000 Euro). Frederik gets 13.5 million danish kroner (1.8 million Euro) They also get VAT returned on purchases
http://kongehuset.dk/publish.php?dog...dk_org_okonomi

I deffenelty do not agree with Henris shut up and be pretty and give birth to children theory, I think for the royal house to keep its fragile position it is necessary that the royals are seen as relativly useful in the changing society, and also for the royals them selves it must be good to feel they can devote their time to something useful. I do however think that royals should try to look presentable at events, many people only get one chance to see a royal live and then I think the royals owe them to look presentable and tidy and with the appropriate royal "oomph" in every official situation, how they dress when inside their own house I could not care an inch about.

BTW what does "johnny and anita" mean, is it a dutch saying?
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  #186  
Old 12-03-2006, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.

According to the Royal House website the annual incomes are:
the Prince of Orange € 977.000,-- (appr. $ 1,270,100.--)
the spouse of the Prince of Orange € 863.000,-- (appr. $ 1,121,900.--)
The details

Quote:
Under the Constitution and the Royal House Finances Act, the State pays allowances directly to Queen Beatrix, Prince Willem-Alexander and Princess Máxima.

The other members of the Royal House do not receive allowances.
The allowances consist of 3 components:
  • Component A, which relates to staff costs;
  • Component B, which relates to other expenses;
  • Component C, which is the income component.
The following table shows the estimated allowances for 2007.
(in thousands of euros)



The Queen
A 1,511
B 1,795
C 762
Total 4,068

Prince Willem-Alexander
A 294
B 457
C 226
Total 977

Princess Máxima
A 294
B 343
C 266
Total 863



From http://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/english...objectid=13339
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  #187  
Old 12-03-2006, 11:13 AM
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I think we're missing Henri's point with this costing business.
If the wife of the Prince of Orange could (quoting Henri's elegant phrase) "shut up and be pretty", I don't think Henri would begrudge her a cent of her allowance.
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  #188  
Old 12-03-2006, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
I think we're missing Henri's point with this costing business.
If the wife of the Prince of Orange could (quoting Henri's elegant phrase) "shut up and be pretty", I don't think Henri would bregrudge her a cent of her allowance.
Well, in that case I would pick in Henri's role and become over feministic. And I'm not even feministic, go figure...
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  #189  
Old 12-03-2006, 12:27 PM
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All posts about Maxima's hair have been moved to Crown Princess Maxima's Hairstyles in the fashion forum. Feel free to continue the discussion there.
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  #190  
Old 12-03-2006, 12:30 PM
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I think we're debating two issues here that will never be resolved with Maxima alone as they are issues across the Royal Houses (the cost of the royal families and if the cost is worth it).

Henri- I did not realize that Maxima is the only CP that receives her own allowance. Is this a new policy or has this been Dutch tradition? Was it instituted as a result of the stream of male consorts over the past 100 years?

I'm also wondering if there are more expectations on Maxima than on the men that preceeded her in this role. Bernhard certainly didn't shut up-he was involved in business, culture and politics on not only a national level, but in international one. History has shown that some of his business dealings were downright shady- so he was certainly not twiddling his thumbs in the thone room. Prince Philip in the UK has also taken on a lot of projects and transformed Windsor Great Park, for example, into a great place. Why is there such a double standard?
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  #191  
Old 12-03-2006, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
Nonsense.
Denis Thatcher had to shut up and be pretty next to Margaret.
Prince Philip has to shut up and be pretty next to Elizabeth.
Prince Henrik has to shut up and be pretty next to Margrethe.
Henri, do you really know much about the princes you're talking about? It appears not.

From Henrik's last spat with the Queen and Prince Frederik when he stormed off to his castle in the south of France and complained he was behind Frederik, it looks he's not too good at shutting up. I also have a hard time calling Henrik nice looking or even presentable sometimes. I'm sure Margrethe loves him but he often comes across as a bit dumpy and disheveled in public.

Prince Philip? Well, yes, the man is gorgeous so he was always easy on the eyes but shutting up? If you visit the British forums, you'll see a thread entitled 'The Wit and Wisdom of Prince Philip' where Philip does anything but shut up (much to the embarassment of some of his subjects) Diplomacy is not his strength.
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  #192  
Old 12-03-2006, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Henri, do you really know much about the princes you're talking about? It appears not.

From Henrik's last spat with the Queen and Prince Frederik when he stormed off to his castle in the south of France and complained he was behind Frederik, it looks he's not too good at shutting up. I also have a hard time calling Henrik nice looking or even presentable sometimes. I'm sure Margrethe loves him but he often comes across as a bit dumpy and disheveled in public.

Prince Philip? Well, yes, the man is gorgeous so he was always easy on the eyes but shutting up? If you visit the British forums, you'll see a thread entitled 'The Wit and Wisdom of Prince Philip' where Philip does anything but shut up (much to the embarassment of some of his subjects) Diplomacy is not his strength.
That Prince Philip and Prince Henrik incidentally did not shut up and be pretty, does not mean that this is not their core royal duty.

Prince Hendrik, Duke of Mecklenburg (grandfather of Queen Beatrix) himself stated: 'Ich bin nur das Gepäck' (I'm just the luggage).
Prince Bernhard, Prince zur Lippe-Biesterfeld (father of Queen Beatrix) exploited his position to the maximum, helped by his mother-in-law Queen Wilhelmina who adored him, by his role in the war and by his apparently easily to overrule spouse.
Prince Claus, Jonkheer van Amsberg (spouse of Queen Beatrix) also felt totally useless. He had no any space for his own opinions. As The Prince of the Netherlands he simply had to shut up, be pretty and stay in his mighty spouse's shadow.

That was, is an remains the core businesses of all spouses to a King and a Heir.
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  #193  
Old 12-03-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
That they incidentally did not do so, did not mean their principal duty was to shut up an be pretty and stay in their royal spouse's shadow.
I'll have to disagree with you there. I think their principle duty is to support and encourage their spouses in their royal role.

Despite not looking pretty or not shutting up, these husbands have provided enormous support to their royal wives. Elizabeth has called Philip her mainstay and her anchor through all their almost 60 years together. Margrethe has expressed the same gratitude towards Henrik.

You mention Camilla; the one thing she does do very well is support Charles and give him confidence. Its similar to the role Charles' grandmother the Queen Mother performed with her husband King George VI. Its easy to see that after Camilla's presence in the royal family for a little over a year and a half, the whole family seems more at ease with itself; this makes it easier for everyone to focus on their royal responsibilities .

It appears that despite all of Maxima's perceived faults, Willem-Alexander derives enormous strength and support from her presence. He seems more at ease and more effective in his role. From that fact alone, I'd say Maxima is doing her job.

I will agree with you on one point, once the consort starts to outshine the heir (or monarch) then they can't be a mainstay of support.
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  #194  
Old 12-03-2006, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I'll have to disagree with you there. I think their principle duty is to support and encourage their spouses in their royal role.

Despite not looking pretty or not shutting up, these husbands have provided enormous support to their royal wives. Elizabeth has called Philip her mainstay and her anchor through all their almost 60 years together. Margrethe has expressed the same gratitude towards Henrik.

You mention Camilla; the one thing she does do very well is support Charles and give him confidence. Its similar to the role Charles' grandmother the Queen Mother performed with her husband King George VI. Its easy to see that after Camilla's presence in the royal family for a little over a year and a half, the whole family seems more at ease with itself; this makes it easier for everyone to focus on their royal responsibilities .

It appears that despite all of Maxima's perceived faults, Willem-Alexander derives enormous strength and support from her presence. He seems more at ease and more effective in his role. From that fact alone, I'd say Maxima is doing her job.

I will agree with you on one point, once the consort starts to outshine the heir (or monarch) then they can't be a mainstay of support.
Sure, shut up your mouth and be pretty (in public) does not exclude a decisive and important role in the Court organization in particular and the monarchy in general.
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  #195  
Old 12-03-2006, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
Sure, shut up your mouth and be pretty (in public) does not exclude a decisive and important role in the Court organization in particular and the monarchy in general.
I get the feeling that Willem-Alexander enjoys the attention that Maxima is getting and gets a lot of strength from her vivacity. In that case, Maxima wouldn't be able to support Willem-Alexander very well if she did keep quiet and demure in public.
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  #196  
Old 12-03-2006, 01:15 PM
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A maximum of 3 spouses get their own individual and independent income

Quote:
Henri- I did not realize that Maxima is the only CP that receives her own allowance. Is this a new policy or has this been Dutch tradition? Was it instituted as a result of the stream of male consorts over the past 100 years?
According to the Act on the Financial Statute of the Royal House, the following members receive an own annual dotation from the State:

- The King
- the spouse to The King*
- The Prince of Orange
- the spouse to The Prince of Orange*
- the abdicated King
- the spouse to the abdicated King*

* during widowhood they keep this position

At present this means:

Queen Beatrix € 3.896.000,-- ( appr. $ 5,064,800.--), free of taxes

Prince Willem-Alexander € 933.000,-- (appr. $ 1,212,900.--), free of taxes

Máxima € 822.000,-- (appr. $ 1,068,600.--), free of taxes

These incomes have certain parts to cover some functional costs. But the Royal Household (appr. 600 people including the Royal Forestry, the Royal Archives, the Royal Stables, the Queen's Cabinet, the security) are almost entirely in the service of the state and do have the status of civil servants. The palaces, the transportation, the security, the ceremonial of state, all these costs are covered for by the state. In total the monarchy costs, these three dotations included, around 90 million Euro (appr. 117 million dollars) per year.
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  #197  
Old 12-03-2006, 03:15 PM
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about the "shut up and be pretty" statement, i already said that i disagreed about the first part. the second part is however not too illogical. i also think maxima didn't look her best lately and that this maxima is totally different in her presence than the maxima we met at her engagement and first years as princess, for example. she could do a lot better and return to her "old elegant" times. i think we all remember how much she was complimented and how much she was refered as an elegant princess.

perhaps motherhood had a lot to do in her style... she may not feel as confident with the same 'business' suits she used to use before. it may also mean she matured in her new role and that she prefered to take up a similar style to mathilde, with whom she resembles a lot in style.

although if i need say, i prefer an intelligent person rather than a pretty one. beauty vanishes at some point. glamour and elegance does as well in some cases. it's intelligence that remains. and maxima proved she has a lot of that.
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  #198  
Old 12-03-2006, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azile

Henri- I did not realize that Maxima is the only CP that receives her own allowance. Is this a new policy or has this been Dutch tradition? Was it instituted as a result of the stream of male consorts over the past 100 years?
You are correct. When Wilhelmina married Hendrik in 1901 the plan was that he would get an allowance by the state. But the goverment quickly withdrew the request due to pressures from the socialists. This became one of the reasons of the disastrous marriage that Hendrik and Wilhelmina got. He called himself indeed 'nur das Gepack'. Though Henri M. seems to see that as a positive thing, the rest of the country and politicians did not. Hendriks lack of money and a goal in life led to many embarrasing scandals, including blackmail, mistresses, boyscouts, illegitemate children etc. The sort of life that Hendrik led (shut up, though we can not call him pretty ) scared away much suitors to Juliana's hand, most notably Prince Carl of Sweden, as Queen Maud of Norway and other relatives said he would have to lead a simular life as the late Prince Hendrik (according to Prof. C. Fasseur in 'Wilhelmina').

As the politicians wanted to prevent the problem for the future royal spouse the prime minister of that time (Colijn) said 'the first thing the boy wil get is an allowance', when he heard about the engagement of Juliana to Bernhard. Prince Bernhard also was allowed a much more active role then his father-in-law, such as going on economic missions, organising Bilderberg conferences etc. This of course led to the Lockheed scandal, when it became evident that Bernhard took bribes to finance his illegitemate daughter(s).

Due to experiences with Bernhard, Prince Claus was allowed less freedom. He had to quit his function as advisor to the minister of development aid for example, as the goverment found the topic to politically sensitive. A few years later the Prince suffered from depressions mostly due to the fact that it was not possible for him to do something more usefull then he did.

So Princess Maxima is the next in line, and again it is an experiment of how much liberty will she get. Shut up and be pretty is NOT an option. Maxima was included in the commission PAVEM, about integration of immigrant-women. This was considered to politically sensitive to, and such a thing will not be repeated in the future (as the commission and the goverment had conflicting opinions about several matters). So now Maxima has found some topics that lie close to her own interests, where she can use her talents and previous experiences and which are meaningfull but not politically sensitive, a nice balance IMO.
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  #199  
Old 12-03-2006, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mims111

That's the charm of fairytale, which makes monarchy. When you live in republic, no one cares for homeless, no one higlights important things.
Are you kidding? You mean republics like Finland, Germany, France, Ireland, Austria...to name but a few, very well operating democracies, you mean to say these societies, there's no one there who cares for the homeless, no one who highlights problems with society? Please. Come on now. If I take your comment at face value, I'd say: it's utter nonsense.

English doesn't seem to be your first tongue, so I think I can grok though what you mean: you mean that it is a good concept when there is someone who is above society, who can, in all neutrality, point out the obvious, point out what no one is doing? Fair point.

However, since we are talking about an <inherited> role here, you can't say for sure that that person will actually do that. In fact, if you are lucky, they will do that. Look at for example Denmark. Fred of Denmark, nice guy that he may be, how crucial has this dude proven for its society? Can you say -r-e-p-l-a-c-a-b-l-e? Good. Because for all his handsomeness, he has done nothing substantial but opening conferences and sailing boats. This is exactly the conundrum with inherited roles such as monarchs have. If these people aren't up to par, it is really really hard to replace them.

As for the topic here, Maxima, she is in fact doing a much better job in this regard than the multitude of her royal peers. She is even sticking her neck out, when it comes to, in the netherlands, unpopular things to point out like she does, namely that immigrants actually make a society a better place, if, as she has said, one can see the richness of it.

And sure, the girl could use a hair cut, but I have to say when looking purely at the <content> of her work of the past two years, this girl deserves praise, even from sceptics such as myself!
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Old 12-03-2006, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess olga
This is exactly the conundrum with inherited roles such as monarchs have. If these people aren't up to par, it is really really hard to replace them.
Its the same situation in a private company where the owner puts all his sons in key VP positions, just because they're his sons and its his company. There's nothing any of the other employees can do about the sons being incompetent except leave the company. When its a large company, that could impact the livelihood of a lot of people.
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