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  #1  
Old 08-09-2006, 03:03 PM
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A New Princess of Orange after 125 Years

When The Prince of Orange married Máxima in 2002, this meant that finally, after 125 years, there was a Princess of Orange again.

Maybe it is nice to see a list of Princess Máxima's predecessors in the House of Nassau:

Hendrik III of Nassau (1483-1538)
Son of Johann V of Nassau & Elisabeth Landgravine of Hessen-Marburg
x
Claudia de Châlon-d’Arlay (1498-1521), Princess of Orange (1498-1521)
Daughter of Jean IV de Châlon-d'Arlay, Prince of Orange & Philiberte de Luxembourg-Ligny, Comtesse de Charly

René of Nassau, Prince of Orange (1519-1544)
Son of Hendrik III of Nassau & Claudia de Châlon-d’Arlay, Princess of Orange
x
Anne de Lorraine et Bar (1522-1568), Princess of Orange (1540-1568)
Daughter of Antoine ‘le Bon’, Duc de Lorraine et Bar & Renée de Bourbon, Comtesse de Montpensier, Dame de Mercoer

Willem I ‘the Silent’ of Nassau, Prince of Orange (1533-1584)
Son of Wilhelm ‘the Rich’ of Nassau & Juliana Countess zu Stolberg-Wernigerode
x (1st)
Anna of Egmond, Countess of Buren (1533-1558), Princess of Orange (1551-1558)
Daughter of Maximilian of Egmond, Count of Buren & Françoise de Lannoy, Dame Lannoy, de Santes, de Tronchiennes, de Rollaincourt et de Boulers

x (2nd)
Anna of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Meissen (1544-1577), Princess of Orange (1561-1571)
Daughter of Kurfürst (Elector) Moritz ‘the Great’ of Saxony, Duke of Saxe-Meissen & Agnes Landgravine of Hessen

x (3rd)
Charlotte de Bourbon-Vendôme de Montpensier (1547-1582), Princess of Orange (1575-1582)
Daughter of Louis III de Bourbon-Vendôme, Duc de Montpensier & Jacqueline de Longwy, Comtesse de Bar-sur-Seine

x (4th)
Louise de Coligny (1555-1620), Princess of Orange (1583-1584), Princess-Douairière of Orange (1584-1620)
Daughter of Gaspard II de Coligny, Comte de Châtillon-sur-Loing, Admiral de France & Charlotte de Montmorency, Comtesse de Laval et de Montfort

Philips-Willem of Nassau, Prince of Orange (1554-1618)
Son of Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange & Anna of Egmond, Countess of Buren
x
Eléonore de Bourbon-Condé (1581-1619), Princess of Orange (1606-1618), Princess-Douairière of Orange (1618-1619)
Daughter of Henri I de Bourbon, Prince de Condé & Charlotte-Cathérine de la Tremoille des Ducs de Thouars

Maurits of Nassau, Prince of Orange (1567-1625)
Son of Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange & Anna of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Meissen
x
(never married)

Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange (1584-1647)
Son of Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange & Louise de Coligny
x
Amalia Countess of Solms-Braunfels (1602-1675), Princess of Orange (1625-1647), Princess-Douairière of Orange (1647-1675)
Daughter of Johann-Albrecht I Count of Solms-Braunfels & Agnes Countess zu Sayn-Wittgenstein

Willem II of Nassau, Prince of Orange (1626-1650)
Son of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange & Amalia Countess of Solms-Braunfels
x
Mary Henrietta Stuart, Princess Royal, Princess of England, Scotland and Ireland (1631-1661), Princess of Orange (1641-1650), Princess-Douairière of Orange (1650-1661)
Daughter of Charles I Stuart, King of England, Scotland and Ireland & Henriette Marie de Bourbon, Princesse de France

Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (1650-1702)
Son of Willem II of Nassau, Prince of Orange & Mary Henrietta Stuart, Princess Royal, Princess of England, Scotland and Ireland
x
Mary Stuart, Princess of York (1662-1694), Princess of Orange (1677-1694)
Daughter of James II Stuart, Duke of York, later King of England, Scotland and Ireland & Lady Anne Hyde

Johan Willem Friso, Prince of Orange, Fürst zu Nassau (1687-1711)
Son of Hendrik Casimir II, Fürst of Nassau & Henriette Amalia, Princess of Anhalt-Dessau
x
Marie-Luise, Landgravine of Hessen-Kassel (1688-1765) Princess of Orange (1709-1711), Princess-Douairière of Orange (1711-1765)
Daughter of Karl, Landgrave of Hessen-Kassel & Maria Amalia, Princess of Kurland

Willem IV, Prince of Orange, Fürst of Nassau (1711-1751)
Son of Johan Willem Friso, Prince of Orange, Fürst zu Nassau & Marie-Luise, Landgravine of Hessen-Kassel
x
Anne of Hannover, Princess Royal, Princess of Great Britain and Ireland, Princess of Hannover, Duchess of Braunschweig and Lüneburg (1709-1759), Princess of Orange (1734-1951), Princess-Douairière of Orange (1751-1759)
Daughter of Kurfürst (Elector) George II of Hannover, King of Great Britain and Ireland, Duke of Braunschweig and Lüneburg & Caroline Margravine of Brandenburg-Ansbach

Willem V, Prince of Orange, Fürst of Nassau (1748-1806)
Son of Willem IV, Prince of Orange, Fürst of Nassau & Anne of Hannover, Princess Royal, Princess of Great Britain and Ireland, Princess of Hannover, Duchess of Braunschweig and Lüneburg
x
Wilhelmina, Princess of Prussia (1751-1820), Princess of Orange (1767-1806), Princess-Douairière of Orange (1806-1820)
Daughter of August Wilhelm, Crown Prince of Prussia & Luise Duchess of Braunschweig-Wolffenbüttel

Willem, Prince of Orange, Fürst of Nassau (later Willem I King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg) (1772-1843)
Son of Willem V, Prince of Orange, Fürst of Nassau & Wilhelmina, Princess of Prussia
x
Wilhelmina, Princess of Prussia (1774-1837), Princess of Orange (1806-1815)
Daughter of Friedrich-Wilhelm II King of Prussia, Kurfürst (Elector) of Brandenburg & Friederike-Luise, Landgravine of Hessen-Darmstadt

Willem, Prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau (later Willem II King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg) (1792-1849)
Son of Willem I King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg & Wilhelmina, Princess of Prussia
x
Anna Paulovna Romanovna, Grand Duchess of Russia (1795-1865), Princess of Orange (1816-1840)
Daughter of Paul I Romanov, Tsar of all the Russias & Sophie-Dorothea, Duchess of Württemberg

Willem, Prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau (later Willem III King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg) (1817-1890)
Son of Willem II King of the Netherlands, Grand Duke of Luxembourg &Anna Paulovna Romanovna, Grand Duchess of Russia
x (1st)
Sophie, Princess of Württemberg (1818-1877), Princess of Orange (1840-1849)
Daughter of Wilhelm I King of Württemberg & Catharina Paulovna Romanovna, Grand Duchess of Russia

Willem-Alexander, Prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau (1967)
Son of Beatrix Queen of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau & Claus Jonkheer van Amsberg, elevated Prince of the Netherlands in 1966
x
Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti (1971), elevated Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau in 2002, Princess of Orange (2002-....)
Daughter of Jorge Horacio Zorreguieta Sefanini & María del Carmen Cerruti Carricart

Catharina-Amalia, Hereditary Princess of Orange, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau (2003)
Daughter of Willem-Alexander, Prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau & Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti
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  #2  
Old 08-09-2006, 03:21 PM
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Not quite sure what your post is about Henri unless I have missed something - since when did Maxima have Orange -Nassau ancestry and is she Princess of Orange? Is not that the title for the heir to the throne so right now her husband is Prince of Orange and when he becomes King his daughter will become Princess of Orange. I thought Maxima is a Princess of The Netherlands.
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Old 08-09-2006, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliana
Not quite sure what your post is about Henri unless I have missed something - since when did Maxima have Orange -Nassau ancestry and is she Princess of Orange? Is not that the title for the heir to the throne so right now her husband is Prince of Orange and when he becomes King his daughter will become Princess of Orange. I thought Maxima is a Princess of The Netherlands.
My fault: I wrote ancestors, but of course it must be: predecessors.
Ladies who were in her position as The Princess of Orange.

By marriage, as all the predecessors, she is The Princess of Orange.
This title however is always a temporarily functional title: it lasts as long as Prince Willem-Alexander is the Thronefollower and will then pass to the next Thronefollower.

Princess Máxima was elevated by Royal Decree into the royal rank and was bestowed the title 'Princess of the Netherlands' in her own right. An own title has precedence above another one which is 'just' en titre courteoisie. That is why she is never named 'The Princess of Orange'. (Her predecessors were never bestowed a title on their own).
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Old 08-09-2006, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.

Willem-Alexander, Prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau (1967)
Son of Beatrix Queen of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau & Claus Jonkheer van Amsberg
x
Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti (1971)
Daughter of Jorge Horacio Zorreguieta Sefanini & María del Carmen Cerruti Carricart

Catharina-Amalia, Hereditary Princess of Orange, Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau (2003)
Daughter of Willem-Alexander, Prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau & Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti
Hm, as Maxima was created a Princess of the Netherlands in her own right and you never mention the family names of the princes and Princesses you mention, shouldn't you out of politeness say that

Willem-Alexander, Prince of Orange ....
x Maxima, Princess of the Netherlands

and

Catherina-Amalia (snip titles)
Daughter of Willem-Alexander, Prince of Orange (...) & Maxima, Princess of the Netherlands.

If we accept the concept of Royalty, IMHO, we have to accept that HM the Queen of the Netherlands could and did elevate the former commoner Maxima to the title of "Princess of the Netherlands" with the right not to mention her former name anymore. Due to Royal dcree, Maxima is now a Princess of the Netherlands, no matter what she had been before her elevation.
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
If we accept the concept of Royalty, IMHO, we have to accept that HM the Queen of the Netherlands could and did elevate the former commoner Maxima to the title of "Princess of the Netherlands" with the right not to mention her former name anymore. Due to Royal dcree, Maxima is now a Princess of the Netherlands, no matter what she had been before her elevation.
I have changed it above. Thanks for your input.
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
When The Prince of Orange married Máxima in 2002, this meant that finally, after 125 years, there was a Princess of Orange again.
I understand what you mean, but technically, wasn't for example Beatrix also princess of Orange? And her mother and grandmother before her? Or is this title only for princess consorts?
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Old 08-10-2006, 03:36 AM
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The title of Prince(ss) of Orange is nowadays reserved for the heir presumptive (m/f) only. At present this is Prince Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg. When W-A becomes King, his daughter Amalia will become the first female heir presumptive with this title - thanks to the change in the constitution in 1983 I believe. Neither, Wilhelmina, nor Juliana nor Beatrix had this titel as heir presumptive. And although strictly speaking Maxima may carry her husband's title she never uses it and in fact nobody in our country refers to her that way! She is indeed Princess Maxima of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau.

Oh and in Holland there's also no official (constitutional) reference to the term Crown Prince.
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Old 08-14-2006, 05:37 PM
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I believe officially it is ´vermoedelijke troonsopvolger´ which means something like ´suspected successor of the throne´. The heir is not Prince of Orange automatically, but by Royal Decree. And technically Maxima is NOT Princess of Orange (sadly).

BTW, more pictures of Princesses of Orange (and other dutch royals) & the genealogy in this thread: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...past-1107.html.

Another question, does anybody know about the Princes of Orange BEFORE Claudia de Chalon? Is there any genealogy about that family available? Or a complete geneology of the Nassau´s, WITH all the side branches like Nassau-Usingen, Nassau-Siegen, and the marriages of Nassau-women (could only trace back from the sisters of William the silent onwards, but I know that a countess of Nassau married a count Jan de Renesse).
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Old 08-14-2006, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRaven
The title of Prince(ss) of Orange is nowadays reserved for the heir presumptive (m/f) only. At present this is Prince Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg. When W-A becomes King, his daughter Amalia will become the first female heir presumptive with this title - thanks to the change in the constitution in 1983 I believe. Neither, Wilhelmina, nor Juliana nor Beatrix had this titel as heir presumptive.
Really? Why not? It wasn't, like, when Wilhelmina was the only child left of her father, the then king of the Netherlands, that he would, posthumously, allocate another heir? I admit I'm confused..
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Old 08-14-2006, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
And technically Maxima is NOT Princess of Orange (sadly).

perhaps that's because, if she were, and WA would die unexpectedly, say, tomorrow, she would have a legal claim to that throne? Other than that, I can't think of <why> she shouldn't share that title, after all, she will be queen consort one day, the whole thing is a team job anyway. Still confused haha..
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Old 08-14-2006, 05:57 PM
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Now that males and females are equal in succession, wouldn't Amalia be heir apparent, not heir presumptive? As far as I know, before the change, Juliana and Beatrix were both heiress presumptive, but not heiress apparent and not Princess of Orange. However, wouldn't Amalia now be, when her father becomes king, Amalia, Princess of Orange, Princess of the Netherlands, Heiress Apparent?
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess olga
Still confused haha..
May I join you, Olga?
I really don't get all this. Maybe there's some sense of logic in it all, but at the moment it really seems Chinese too me.

Okay, we've got a prince of Orange and princess Maxima is his wife, who happens NOT to be the princess of Orange technically. And than we've got this mess of Wilhelmina, Juliana and Beatrix who weren't princesses of Orange and than there's some talk about a heir presumptive & a heir apparant (what is the difference between these two, btw? I've been wondering about that for quite some time now).

Take you're time to explain, I'm not going anywhere (I'm writing a very interesting essay on literature for adolescents and I still have three pages to write before I'm allowed to go to bed...)
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:29 PM
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well, let´s first clear the Wilhelmina-mess Wilhelmina, Juliana and Beatrix were never ´Princess of Orange´. The last prince of Orange was the eldest son of King Willem III (called Willem). The last male heir to the throne, his brother Prince Alexander was never Prince of Orange as King Willem III did not make him so by royal decree.

Beatrix court seems to change all these title-stuff lately and now any heir will become Prince(ss) of Orange, by royal decree. So Catharina-Amalia will be the first Princess of Orange by right (and not by marriage).

Her husband will noit be Prince of Orange (as he will not be King either), because this would confuse things abroad, when people would assume that HE and not Amalia would be the heir.

I assume that because of sex equality the goverment decided NOT to make Maxima a princess of Orange, as it would create a precedent and unhandy questions about the title of a husband for an evevtual female heir (members of parlament already questioned if she should become ´Queen´, as Claus, Bernhard and Hendrik weren´t called ´King´ either, the question was not solved and will be handled by a future goverment when the Prince of Orange actually becomes King Willem IV).

So Maxima was not created Princess of Orange by royal decree, like her husband. She was created Princess of The Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau. Hence legally she is NOT ´Princess of Orange´.

BUT out of courtesy and tradition some people claim she CAN use her husbands title, as in some other countries. This might be true, but as I said before: legally she is NOT the Princess of Orange. Add to that the fact that the court and goverment NEVER named her so, which also supports my point.
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:30 PM
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It is not so complicated at all.

Until 1983 the title The Prince of Orange was vested in the Constitution and exclusively borne by the Sovereign's son who is the Heir.
The female spouse of The Prince of Orange was known as The Princess of Orange.

In 1983 a new Constitution came in force. Two main changes were made concerning the hereditary succession:
- the gender of the royal infant is no longer of importance
- the title for the male Heir was scrapped out of the Constitution and will be determined by an Act

Princess Wilhelmina, Princess Juliana and Princess Beatrix were never The Princess of Orange
because neither were they male Heirs to a Sovereign nor were married to The Prince of Orange.
Any younger brother born during their lifetime could have passed them in the line of succession.
So these three ladies were called Heiress Presumptive.
That means more or less: 'The lady most likely to succeed the Sovereign'.

Queen Beatrix acceded the kingship in 1980. That was under the old Constitution.
With her accesion, her eldest son automatically became The Prince of Orange.
He is the Heir Apparent: he can not be passed by other siblings.

In 2002 a revised Act on the membership of the Royal House came into force.
Main changes, under more:
- the male Heir bears the title The Prince of Orange
- the female Heiress bears the title The Princess of Orange
- the title is exclusively for the Heir(ess) and is linked with the position as thronefollower to the Sovereign
- the female spouse to the Prince of Orange is Prinses [....] der Nederlanden
- the male spouse to the Princess of Orange is Prins [....] der Nederlanden

But: as the Government acknowledged, they do not prescribe social and traditional use.
Like Mabel is, by tradition, Countess van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg, her sister-in-law can by the very same tradition be called The Princess of Orange. But in all official publications you will never hear 'The Princess of Orange' but always 'Princess Máxima of the Netherlands'.

The thought behind this: equality in treatment of male and female Heirs.
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess olga
perhaps that's because, if she were, and WA would die unexpectedly, say, tomorrow, she would have a legal claim to that throne? Other than that, I can't think of <why> she shouldn't share that title, after all, she will be queen consort one day, the whole thing is a team job anyway. Still confused haha..
No, the title does not give you automatically rights to the throne. She will never be in line for the throne, no matter what title she gets.

As I said, it is not completely sure that she will be Queen, though I expect it to happen (with some doubts by a couple of members of parlament, who do have a point IMO).
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:37 PM
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Okay, thank you very much, Marengo & Henri!

So, if I understand it all correctly the term prince of Orange was only reserved for male heirs and their wives (like Anna Pavlovna for instance) had the right to use the title princess of Orange? Then we suddenly had our lovely Queen Beatrix, who decided to change the rule, in which she also reserved the title for female heirs, like our precious Amalia. And when it comes to Maxima it's just all very vague...

No, I think I get it now. Thanks again!

Update: You're all so fast! Thanks! I'm totally up to date now! :)
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxie

Update: You're all so fast! Thanks! I'm totally up to date now! :)
Anything for you my dear
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
Anything for you my dear
Oh stop it, you make me cry...
The Heir apparent and heir presumptive thing is very logical btw. I just didn't see the words 'apparent' and 'presumptive' in the right light. This essay I'm writing is making my brain totally numb for any logical thoughts on the english language...
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:51 PM
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well, in dutch we do not have apparent or presumtive. Willem-Alexander oficially is ´de vermoedelijke troonsopvolger´, Catharina-Amalia doesn´t have any special title, just no2 in the line of the throne.

It would have been nice if they would create her ´The Princess of Friesland´ IMO. They played that song (de prins van Friesland) so often when the Prince of Orange was married that I thought some Frisian comittee was lobbying for something like that.
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Old 08-14-2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
well, in dutch we do not have apparent or presumtive. Willem-Alexander oficially is ´de vermoedelijke troonsopvolger´, Catharina-Amalia doesn´t have any special title, just no2 in the line of the throne.
Well that's totally unlogic when you come to think of the fact that 'vermoedelijk' and 'presumptive' mean more or less the same and in English W-A would be the heir apparent. The only conclusion one can draw from this is that Dutch people really are weird...
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