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  #21  
Old 08-14-2006, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
well, let´s first clear the Wilhelmina-mess Wilhelmina, Juliana and Beatrix were never ´Princess of Orange´. The last prince of Orange was the eldest son of King Willem III (called Willem). The last male heir to the throne, his brother Prince Alexander was never Prince of Orange as King Willem III did not make him so by royal decree.

Beatrix court seems to change all these title-stuff lately and now any heir will become Prince(ss) of Orange, by royal decree.
Ah, that explains it! Thanks Marengo!

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Originally Posted by Marengo
I assume that because of sex equality the goverment decided NOT to make Maxima a princess of Orange, as it would create a precedent and unhandy questions about the title of a husband for an evevtual female heir (members of parlament already questioned if she should become ´Queen´, as Claus, Bernhard and Hendrik weren´t called ´King´ either, the question was not solved and will be handled by a future goverment when the Prince of Orange actually becomes King Willem IV).

So Maxima was not created Princess of Orange by royal decree, like her husband. She was created Princess of The Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau. Hence legally she is NOT ´Princess of Orange´.
hahaha, the Dutch have had queens in their own right now for sooo long--all Dutch people alive today, it is safe to say, cannot remember a time they did not have a woman as their monarch--that now there's a king on the horizon, they don't really know how to deal with it, consort-title-wise (wonder what Beatrix pov on this one is, could she deem Maxima queen by royal decree?).
As a side note, the country has done extremely well under all its recent queens, won a war after which, sure, it lost their biggest colony, but the past decades have been an amazing ride for the country economically and socially. You could argue that, apart from the days the Dutch refer to as their "Golden Century", i.e. the 17th century, the country never had it so good. The Dutch have adored their queens, and couldn't imagine their culture without them. I'd say the three past queens have all been huge assets to their nation. Japan, Are you listening?! Ok, I'll get off my soap box now!
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  #22  
Old 08-14-2006, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
It is not so complicated at all.

Until 1983 the title The Prince of Orange was vested in the Constitution and exclusively borne by the Sovereign's son who is the Heir.
The female spouse of The Prince of Orange was known as The Princess of Orange.

In 1983 a new Constitution came in force. Two main changes were made concerning the hereditary succession:
- the gender of the royal infant is no longer of importance
- the title for the male Heir was scrapped out of the Constitution and will be determined by an Act

Princess Wilhelmina, Princess Juliana and Princess Beatrix were never The Princess of Orange
because neither were they male Heirs to a Sovereign nor were married to The Prince of Orange.
Any younger brother born during their lifetime could have passed them in the line of succession.
So these three ladies were called Heiress Presumptive.
That means more or less: 'The lady most likely to succeed the Sovereign'.

Queen Beatrix acceded the kingship in 1980. That was under the old Constitution.
With her accesion, her eldest son automatically became The Prince of Orange.
He is the Heir Apparent: he can not be passed by other siblings.

In 2002 a revised Act on the membership of the Royal House came into force.
Main changes, under more:
- the male Heir bears the title The Prince of Orange
- the female Heiress bears the title The Princess of Orange
- the title is exclusively for the Heir(ess) and is linked with the position as thronefollower to the Sovereign
- the female spouse to the Prince of Orange is Prinses [....] der Nederlanden
- the male spouse to the Princess of Orange is Prins [....] der Nederlanden

But: as the Government acknowledged, they do not prescribe social and traditional use.
Like Mabel is, by tradition, Countess van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg, her sister-in-law can by the very same tradition be called The Princess of Orange. But in all official publications you will never hear 'The Princess of Orange' but always 'Princess Máxima of the Netherlands'.

The thought behind this: equality in treatment of male and female Heirs.
Thanks much for this detailed explanation, Henri M.! I hope next time they change their constitution, they ask us common street folk for some pointers, because then I'd tell them, Whatever you do, keep it simple! My gosh!
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  #23  
Old 08-15-2006, 03:14 AM
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In fact the whole thought behind all this is pretty clear, but it causes a lot of unrest amongst the more traditional people.

The idea is:

Male Sovereign and his spouse:
Z.M. de Koning & H.K.H. de Prinses der Nederlanden

Female Sovereign and her spouse:
H.M. de Koningin & Z.K.H. de Prins der Nederlanden

Male Heir and his spouse:
Z.K.H. de Prins van Oranje & H.K.H. prinses [....] der Nederlanden

Female Heir and her spouse:
H.K.H. de Prinses van Oranje & Z.K.H. prins [....] der Nederlanden

This would mean that Máxima will not become Queen, like she is -officially- no Princess of Orange either. This caused a lot of questions but the Government has remained vague and shoved the hot potato to the future, on the plate of another Cabinet.
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  #24  
Old 08-15-2006, 03:40 AM
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The idea causes some unrest with me to . Though there is a lot to be said about being pragmatic, logical, clear and sex-equal, I still think it would be rather strange not to make Maxima a Queen (as I still find it weird that they robbed Leonore, Claus-Casimir and Eloise of their title of Princes of the Netherlands).
I actually think she will be a Queen though. Members of parlament will point to tradition all over the world, conveniently overlooking Marocco.
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  #25  
Old 08-15-2006, 06:04 AM
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On itself I like the clarity, the equality and the limiting in the present 2002-system very much

1
The Sovereign and spouse
The King & The Princess
The Queen & The Prince

2
The Heir(ess) and spouse
The Prince of Orange & Princess [.....] of the Netherlands
The Princess of Orange & Prince [.....] of the Netherlands

3
Children of a (future) Sovereign
Prince [.....] of the Netherlands
Princess [.....] of the Netherlands

Catharina-Amalia and Alexia are in group 3, therefore they are Princess of the Netherlands.

Luana, Zaria, Eloïse, Claus-Casimir and Leonore do not fall in group 1, 2 or 3.
Therefore they are no Prince(ss) but were elevated to the Nobility.
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  #26  
Old 08-15-2006, 11:58 AM
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Henri,

Under this system, how will other courts consider Princess Maxima? Will she be required to curtsey to her peers (current spouses of future monarchs) when they become the queens of Spain, Belgium, Norway, etc...?
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  #27  
Old 08-15-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK
Henri,

Under this system, how will other courts consider Princess Maxima? Will she be required to curtsey to her peers (current spouses of future monarchs) when they become the queens of Spain, Belgium, Norway, etc...?
No, she will not need to curtsey to other consorts because she is equal to them in protocol. Being an Empress, Queen, Grand Duchess, Fürstin, Princess or whatever is not leading. You will not see Queen Silvia of Sweden curtsey to Empress Michiko. They just kiss each other.

Prince Claus of the Netherlands, Prince Henrik of Denmark, Prince Philip of UK were equal to the female spouses of Kings, in terms of protocol. You will see them paired together at official functions. Prince Albert (spouse of Queen Victoria) and Prince Philip (spouse of Queen Elizabeth II) rank in everything directly behind their spouse The Queen and come before The Prince of Wales.

Curtsying is another matter. In almost all courts the noble art of curtsying has disappeared. Even in Britain it is not required anymore. The protocol is complex because the consort to The Prince of Wales has precedence to the consort of The Prince of Orange: Prince Charles outshines Prince Willem-Alexander in being Heir for some 53 years while the last one is Heir for 26 years. Máxima of Orange will curtsey for Camilla of Cornwall. But even then Máxima would have curtsied anyway because an older lady is greeted before the younger lady. (Ach... they simply kiss each other, no problems).
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  #28  
Old 08-15-2006, 05:30 PM
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I don´t think protocol requires Maxima (or any other crownprincess) to curtsy to the Duchess of Cornwall. I remember that Mette-Marit did curtsy, which was considered rather odd and considered as a sign of respect for the years that the duchess is her senior. It was most certainly not required by protocol.

If that would be the case Mette-Marit would curtsy to Maxima, Maxima would curtsy to Letizia, Letizia to Mary and Mathilde would be cursying to all the other crownprincesses, which is not the case.

IF Maxima will stay Princess of the Netherlands after her husband becomes King, she will have the same rank as any other consort of a monarch. Princess Lalla Salma of Marocco does not need to curtsy to any Queen either, though she does not have the title of ´Queen´.
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  #29  
Old 08-17-2006, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
The idea causes some unrest with me to . Though there is a lot to be said about being pragmatic, logical, clear and sex-equal, I still think it would be rather strange not to make Maxima a Queen (as I still find it weird that they robbed Leonore, Claus-Casimir and Eloise of their title of Princes of the Netherlands).
I actually think she will be a Queen though. Members of parlament will point to tradition all over the world, conveniently overlooking Marocco.
I agree. Maxima will be Queen. Though the last few monarchs have been females, the last king's wife was titled "Queen".
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  #30  
Old 08-17-2006, 03:30 AM
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Considering how popular she is, I think she will be Queen.
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  #31  
Old 08-17-2006, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
I don´t think protocol requires Maxima (or any other crownprincess) to curtsy to the Duchess of Cornwall. I remember that Mette-Marit did curtsy, which was considered rather odd and considered as a sign of respect for the years that the duchess is her senior. It was most certainly not required by protocol.
.
Doesn't it depend on whose country the princesses are in? E.g. in Denmark, the Dutch, Spanish, British, Swedish, Norwegian, etc. queens would defer to the Queen of Denmark, although monarchs do not curtsy to each other. I think that Crown Princesses do, but I might be wrong. In which country was Mette-Marit when she curtsied to the Duchess?

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  #32  
Old 08-18-2006, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly
In which country was Mette-Marit when she curtsied to the Duchess?
That was during the Norwegian visit to the United Kingdom.

On the cour of Clarence House, The Crown Princess curtsied to The Duchess, which caused a sort of no-no gesture by Camilla of Cornwall and she answered it with kisses.

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  #33  
Old 08-18-2006, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDianafan
Considering how popular she is, I think she will be Queen.
Yes, Princess Máxima is popular.

However, titles are not determined by popularity. All predecessors who were married to a Prince of Orange, were a Princess of Orange. But Princess Máxima is -officially- not styled as The Princess of Orange.

This can be a forebode for the future. You can regret it, but at the other side, her daughter will become the first female Princess of Orange in her own right, since Claudia de Châlon-d’Arlay, Princess of Orange (1498-1521)....

Until 2002 for the title Prince of Orange there was the same regime as for Prince of Wales now: only sons of a Sovereign could become so. Queen Victoria, Queen Wilhelmina, Queen Juliana, Queen Elizabeth II and Queen Beatrix were Heiresses, but never 'The Princess of Wales' or 'The Princess of Orange'.

So you see... some modernizations are not thát bad. And wasn't it the plan that Camilla of Cornwall would also become a Princess next to a King?
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  #34  
Old 08-18-2006, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
That was during the Norwegian visit to the United Kingdom.

On the cour of Clarence House, The Crown Princess curtsied to The Duchess, which caused a sort of no-no gesture by Camilla of Cornwall and she answered it with kisses.

I think, then, that Camilla, would certainly curtsy to Mette-Marit, if she, Camilla, were in Norway.

Am I wrong? I dont' believe so, though I'll happily be corrected.

On the other hand, I do believe that these things are dictated by protocol.

If Camilla travelled to, say, Spain, then she'd be required to curtsy to CP Letizia.

Just my opinion, from what I've read.

Polly
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  #35  
Old 08-18-2006, 07:35 AM
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A révérence (curtsy) already says it: you revere someone.

Mette-Marit of Norway and Camilla of Cornwall are ex aequo in terms of protocollair rank. There was no révérence required between the two.

That Mette-Marit still did make a révérence will have to do with the fact that Camilla of Cornwall is an elder lady and that she is the spouse to The Prince of Wales, the doyen of all European Heirs.
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