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  #301  
Old 09-11-2019, 10:50 AM
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I logged in now to do what I promised at the end of post 297 on Saturday (yes, to write about the luncheon and TV-coverage, and answer questions about it). But have now decided to focus on the latest questions from ''Somebody'' instead:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
As Mulher mentioned, that was actress Evelyn Rasmussen Osazuwa (born 1986), who performed the slam-poetry: "Hun er syk'' (''she's sick''), which is mostly about the environment. I.e. the earth (which she refers to as ''she'') being sick from climate-changes, which was a theme of the service (due to Ingrid and rest off the RF's strong commitment to do something about it).

--------------------

That ''blonde lady-bishop'' is Bishop Veiteberg of Oslo (more information on her in the above post).
She talked about being with Ingrid and one of The Princess' friends in Tøyen church in Oslo, where Ingrid had said to the bishop: ''Spør meg ikke om hvem som blir kastet i brønnen og sånn. Det ble faren min spurt om.''
''Don't ask me who gets thrown in the well and stuff. That, my father was asked about'' (can also be translated to: ''My father was asked about that.'')
So, if I understand it correctly, previously candidates (assuming it wasn't just Haakon) were asked some Bible-related questions but Ingrid-Alexandra thought that was irrelevant for her confirmation in the Lutheran church? She instead opted for a personal interest (the environment) that has little if anything to do with being confirmed in the Lutheran church (this is not to say that the Bible doesn't talk about taking care for the world God created but it isn't the principal message) and everyone went along with it?

So, if the above is a correct interpretation, it was indeed more of a coming of age event - which the princess completely owned (!) - than an introduction to the church and Christian faith (which it formally was).
You have now responded to two replies from my post that have nothing to do with each other.

Reply 1: The RF wanted to focus on the environment because this is something both they and the Church of Norway care about. But that doesn't mean it was at the expense of Bible-related teaching.

Reply 2: Wartenberg7 wanted to know what Bishop Veiteberg said that ''shocked The Princess a second'' and made everyone laugh. I then explained the stuff you quoted above. (Yes, I chose to double-quote the post, so people could see what I had written.)

And let's translate what the bishop went on to say: Ingrid had continued: ''Men spør meg gjerne om noe skikkelig vanskelig!''
''But feel free to ask me something really difficult!" (Indicating that what her father was asked about back in 1988 wasn't difficult enough. LOL. And yes, I love her more and more!)
The bishop then said: ''Kjære konfirmant, dessverre kommer det ingen vanskelige spørsmål fra meg. Jeg vil heller si: Hold fram med å stille spørsmål om det som er viktig og vanskeleg! Og finn gjerne fram til de voksenpersonene, eller de vennene, som har evne og klokskap til å romme de. Som ser deg og vil deg vel.''
''Dear Confirmand, *Unfortunately* (be aware that this word was used ironically), there will come no difficult questions from me. I'd rather say: Keep asking questions about what's important and difficult! And feel free to find those adults, or friends, who have the ability and wisdom to accommodate them. Who sees you and wants you well.'' (Yes, I could have written ''answer'' instead of ''accommodate,'' but not what Veiteberg said.)

BTW: To those wondering why the then Prince Haakon had to answer questions and not Princess Ingrid?
Well, when The Crown Prince was confirmed, he had to attend a so-called ''overhøringsgudstjeneste'' (''overhearing-service'') in Asker Church some days prior to the day itself, where he and the other confirmands were questioned by the priest. But that was changed in the 1990s, so it's not something one does today.

Hope this cleared it up for you (for the poster ''Somebody,'' I mean)!

--------------------

And let's stay with the service because we just have to talk a bit about the badass of badasses. Yes, the quite scary and indomitable 87-year-old Princess Astrid!

Here is a quote from post 74 where I replied to something Muhler had written about Durek meeting QMII:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
However, his biggest challenge will be the old-schooled and short-tempered Princess Astrid, who makes Margrethe look like a lightweighter by comparison. - And who will most likely eat him alive!
But she will, of course, not do it in public. No, she'll wait to she has him on her own, and he will probably be followed by a good dessert. LOL.

And if we should be a bit serious here: The King has told in interviews (the last time was around her 85th Birthday in 2017) that she still yells at him, because for her, he will always be the little brother! And she's not afraid to take on The Crown Prince either (according to himself).
BTW: The King told a funny story in his speech on her 80th Birthday-dinner in 2012 about some courtiers who had implied to him that she seemed a bit irritated with them.
No, he had said, ''she can't have been that, because then we had noticed it.'' LOL.
But now to what I wanted to say: Look at the faces of Princess Ingrid, The Crown Princess and The Queen (yes, especially hers) after The Princess' crutches (which she has been using regularly since the 1980s, due to a bone-condition) fall to the floor at 11:18 in the VG-video in post 296.

Yes, thank God she didn't see it, I say!

--------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
The confirmation here in Scandinavia, perhaps even more in DK than in Sweden, and certainly more than in Norway, is very much a coming-of-age rite.

Traditionally the confirmation was a transformation process, after which the confirmand, entered the ranks of adults. Not legally but in regards to responsibilities.
It was traditionally visually marked in the sense that the boys no longer wore shorts but pants and the girls now wore full length dresses.
It was also the time when the vast majority left school and for the boys took on a full time job or entered an apprenticeship and the girls often left home to enter a few years of domestic service or took a job in a shop or a factory.
There is a lot of emphasis in the speeches (and songs!) at a confirmation hitting home the fact that you are now an adult/have come of age.

And when I listened to older relatives talking about their confirmation, they rarely spoke about the church and the religious aspects, it was the transformation from child to young adult that was first and foremost in their minds.

There is less of such a feeling of transformation today though, because at 14/15 they still have a couple of years left at school, before it's time for high school or something similar and because the confirmand may very likely not move away from home until around 20.
Thanks!

That was actually (and still is) the main thing here too!

In Denmark-Norway, confirmation was required by law in 1736. It was enacted that everyone during their youth should be confirmed through a public examination of the Christian faith and an ecclesiastical initiation. With this, it became a legal necessity for full entry into the adult community. No one could take military service, marry, be a godparent at a christening or testify in court without having done it. And if one didn't pass the exam in the church, you were "disproved" and had to be confirmed again next year. God! And if you hadn't met for it within the age of 19, one could be punished with prison or the pillory (heavens, glad I wasn't around in those days).

The confirmation, BTW, remained mandatory in Norway until 1912.

But to mention another thing, the significance of the confirmation in Norway is, I would say, much bigger than in Sweden. And according to Norwegian commentators/experts, even bigger than in DK!
Yes, it is actually considered to be one of the biggest milestones in a Norwegian's life, ''det er da du skal tre inn i de voksnes rekker'' (''that's when you step into the ranks of adults'') as we say it here.

And as I wrote in post 38, whether one is confirmed in The Norwegian Church (which a record-low 56% chose to do in 2018), in a humanistic way (which a record-high 18% opted for) or in another way (as the rest did, i.e. in another church or in a nonfirmation), it's celebrated with a BIG celebratory dinner for family/friends (including grandparents, uncles/aunts, cousins, etc) where one is given a LOT of money. And where it's VERY common for the females to use bunad.

--------------------

BTW: Will be back on Friday I think, with that luncheon-stuff, where I will talk a bit more about Ingrid.
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  #302  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:06 PM
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My goodness, really?! Prcss Astrid always seems so sweet...!
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  #303  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:24 PM
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Perhaps King Harald acquired his famous aptitude for promoting unity and tolerance from living for so many years with two extremely iron-willed older siblings.

Thank you to Muhler and Royal Norway for the educational comments on the significance of confirmation as first and foremost a coming-of-age rite in the Scandinavian tradition, and to Somebody for asking the question. Does anyone know whether the Scandinavian Lutheran Churches today hold this same view (especially since the Church of Norway eliminated the question and answer service) or if they would rather there be more emphasis on the religious significance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
There is less of such a feeling of transformation today though, because at 14/15 they still have a couple of years left at school, before it's time for high school or something similar and because the confirmand may very likely not move away from home until around 20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
But to mention another thing, the significance of the confirmation in Norway is, I would say, much bigger than in Sweden. And according to Norwegian commentators/experts, even bigger than in DK!
Yes, it is actually considered to be one of the biggest milestones in a Norwegian's life, ''det er da du skal tre inn i de voksnes rekker'' (''that's when you step into the ranks of adults'') as we say it here.
Does that mean that in Norway (in contrast to Denmark) a teenager who has been confirmed is seen as more adult than one who hasn't?
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  #304  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
Reply 1: The RF wanted to focus on the environment because this is something both they and the Church of Norway care about. But that doesn't mean it was at the expense of Bible-related teaching.
So, what exactly was the main Biblical message at the confirmation ceremony?

Quote:
Reply 2: Wartenberg7 wanted to know what Bishop Veiteberg said that ''shocked The Princess a second'' and made everyone laugh. I then explained the stuff you quoted above. (Yes, I chose to double-quote the post, so people could see what I had written.)

And let's translate what the bishop went on to say: Ingrid had continued: ''Men spør meg gjerne om noe skikkelig vanskelig!''
''But feel free to ask me something really difficult!" (Indicating that what her father was asked about back in 1988 wasn't difficult enough. LOL. And yes, I love her more and more!)
The bishop then said: ''Kjære konfirmant, dessverre kommer det ingen vanskelige spørsmål fra meg. Jeg vil heller si: Hold fram med å stille spørsmål om det som er viktig og vanskeleg! Og finn gjerne fram til de voksenpersonene, eller de vennene, som har evne og klokskap til å romme de. Som ser deg og vil deg vel.''
''Dear Confirmand, *Unfortunately* (be aware that this word was used ironically), there will come no difficult questions from me. I'd rather say: Keep asking questions about what's important and difficult! And feel free to find those adults, or friends, who have the ability and wisdom to accommodate them. Who sees you and wants you well.'' (Yes, I could have written ''answer'' instead of ''accommodate,'' but not what Veiteberg said.)

BTW: To those wondering why the then Prince Haakon had to answer questions and not Princess Ingrid?
Well, when The Crown Prince was confirmed, he had to attend a so-called ''overhøringsgudstjeneste'' (''overhearing-service'') in Asker Church some days prior to the day itself, where he and the other confirmands were questioned by the priest. But that was changed in the 1990s, so it's not something one does today.

Hope this cleared it up for you (for the poster ''Somebody,'' I mean)!
Thanks! That's a great story about the princess asking for 'more difficult questions'!

Quote:
That was actually (and still is) the main thing here too!

In Denmark-Norway, confirmation was required by law in 1736. It was enacted that everyone during their youth should be confirmed through a public examination of the Christian faith and an ecclesiastical initiation. With this, it became a legal necessity for full entry into the adult community. No one could take military service, marry, be a godparent at a christening or testify in court without having done it. And if one didn't pass the exam in the church, you were "disproved" and had to be confirmed again next year. God! And if you hadn't met for it within the age of 19, one could be punished with prison or the pillory (heavens, glad I wasn't around in those days).

The confirmation, BTW, remained mandatory in Norway until 1912.

But to mention another thing, the significance of the confirmation in Norway is, I would say, much bigger than in Sweden. And according to Norwegian commentators/experts, even bigger than in DK!
Yes, it is actually considered to be one of the biggest milestones in a Norwegian's life, ''det er da du skal tre inn i de voksnes rekker'' (''that's when you step into the ranks of adults'') as we say it here.

And as I wrote in post 38, whether one is confirmed in The Norwegian Church (which a record-low 56% chose to do in 2018), in a humanistic way (which a record-high 18% opted for) or in another way (as the rest did, i.e. in another church or in a nonfirmation), it's celebrated with a BIG celebratory dinner for family/friends (including grandparents, uncles/aunts, cousins, etc) where one is given a LOT of money. And where it's VERY common for the females to use bunad.
Thanks again, this seems to confirm that my take that this is primarily a 'coming of age' ceremony and secondary a 'Christian version' of it seems about right.
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