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  #61  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:27 PM
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I also worry about the ramifications of some yellow journalist writing about Camilla wearing jewels only designated for a Queen Consort, but I have to say that I do like Madame Royale's summation on the subject--be it Queen or Princess, Camilla will be the Consort and I agree that the State Diadem is perfect for her to wear. But, still, there is the selfish side of me that desires to see her alongside her husband wearing the Queen Mother's (or Queen Mary's if I'm really honest) crown. The more I think about it, the more plausible it seems that Camilla will be the Queen Consort, and even crowned Consort, but will prefer to be known as the Princess Consort in a similar arrangement as we now see with the PoW title. Unfair? Yes. Practical? At the same time, yes. That way, the small minority are appeased and the jewels are seen. I assume she would be first in the order of precedence.
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  #62  
Old 05-27-2009, 01:26 AM
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I assume she would be first in the order of precedence.
Whether Queen or Princess Consort, Camilla will, as spouse, rank second to the sovereign. Absolutely.
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  #63  
Old 05-27-2009, 02:23 AM
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British precedence is usually split into two lists, one for men and one for women. She would be at the top of the womens' list (but still below the King, obviously). (Although splitting it is becoming increasingly outmoded due to the number of female officeholders.)
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  #64  
Old 05-28-2009, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I think there may be some agitation from people who object to the Princess Consort wearing jewels left by Queen Victoria specifically to be worn by future queens, but we'll have to see if that actually happens.
Well, Granny was extremely specific in her will about the schedule of jewels designated 'to be worn by future Queens in right of it'. Given how the BRF reveres Queen Victoria (ie the 'dont sit there, Queen Victoria last sat in that chair', etc), I would be shocked if they flagrantly flouted the will. There are so many sparkly whatevers in the vault that have not seen the light of day in 100 years....why not trot some of them out instead? Especially if one believes his statement at the time of his engagement to Camilla...'It is intended that she will be known as the Princess Consort', not Queen Camilla.
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  #65  
Old 05-29-2009, 05:39 AM
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When the time comes, it is not going to matter one hoot what Victoria may or may not have put in her will. I can't say I have ever come across a rule of don't sit there because Victoria did!
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  #66  
Old 05-29-2009, 06:25 AM
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I haven't been able to find the text of Victoria's will anywhere, but I imagine that anything she said about her jewels was just an expression of her wishes as to who should wear certain things and such precatory words in a will generally have no legal force or effect.

She might have listed certain jewels as being those she considered so special for some reason that they should only be worn by future queens regnant or the wives future kings. I doubt Queen Victoria would have contemplated what might be suitable to be work by a future king's wife if that wife were not queen consort, since that concept would be unlikely to have occurred to her in her wildest dreams. Camilla is Charles' wife and, all going well, she will one day be the King's wife and consort, regardless of what she is called. She will be able to wear whatever Charles thinks she should be able to wear.

If Queen Victoria's ideas and opinions had any legal bearing on Queen Elizabeth II's children, Prince Edward would probably have been made heir apparent long ago.
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  #67  
Old 05-29-2009, 08:06 AM
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If Queen Victoria's ideas and opinions had any legal bearing on Queen Elizabeth II's children, Prince Edward would probably have been made heir apparent long ago.
Point well made Roslyn. But it really does go to show that those who harbour antiquated ideas about the marriage and divorce of royalty have already got their ducks in a row. If they can't take the crown from Charles they'll make damned sure there is a fuss every time someone see's Camilla wear something they "believe" is only meant for a Queen.

Charles will reign, that is my belief. Camilla will be Queen, that is my hope. I really don't understand those that believe that the sucession is a gift to be earned. Hell Harry VIII would have been well and truely kicked out of the kingdom by the selective puritanical stance of some utterly joyless gits!

However, it is my understanding that for Camilla not to be Queen will require an act of parliament and leaving it until the Queen is already dead will create some ethical and moral dilemma's. "The Queen is dead, long live the King, but hang about, we'll have to have a special session in parliament to change the rules . . . . . . now should we fit that in before, during or after the funeral of the Queen?
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Well, Granny was extremely specific in her will about the schedule of jewels designated 'to be worn by future Queens in right of it'. . . . . . I would be shocked if they flagrantly flouted the will. There are so many sparkly whatevers in the vault that have not seen the light of day in 100 years....why not trot some of them out instead? Especially if one believes his statement at the time of his engagement to Camilla...'It is intended that she will be known as the Princess Consort', not Queen Camilla.
Anyone got a copy of Queen Victoria's Will so we can remove any jewellry from temptation . . . . maybe while they are all at the Funeral Service?"

Like I said . . . .
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  #68  
Old 05-29-2009, 10:35 AM
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I know nothing about Queen Victoria's will but the official designation is "Jewels left to the Crown". The Crown is currently represented by Elizabeth II; in due course it will be represented by Charles III. It will be he who decides who wears what.

Among the many pieces Victoria left to the Crown were three jewelled head ornaments:

The Diamond Diadem of George IV (band remounted 1902, row of pearls added 1937)
The Brilliant Regal Tiara (the diamonds remounted in 1937 for the crown of Queen Elizabeth)
Regal Indian Tiara (remounted for Queen Alexandra in 1902, opals replaced with rubies)

In short: one diadem, one crown and one tiara for those so inclined to argue over.
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  #69  
Old 05-29-2009, 08:11 PM
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Pg 10, 'The Jewels of Queen Elizabeth' by Leslie Field..."her will contained a schedule of jewels that were to be considered as 'belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it' ".
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  #70  
Old 05-30-2009, 01:19 AM
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Thanks for pointing out that reference, Scooter.
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  #71  
Old 05-30-2009, 01:46 AM
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If Camilla does become Princess Consort, it sort of depends on how it's done. If they do an end run around the current situation where a monarch (and hence spouse) can't take other titles and announce that HM Queen Camilla will be known by the fictitious title of HRH Princess Consort, then she'll still be Queen even though she isn't called Queen, so the terms of Queen Victoria's will would be complied with. However, if legislation is passed to deprive her of the title of Queen and create her Princess Consort in her own right, or however they'd do it, that would be a different situation. Even then, what if she did show up wearing the Oriental Circlet or the George IV diadem? Apart from the tabloids having a field day, what, practically, could anybody do about it?
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  #72  
Old 05-30-2009, 03:47 AM
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No, to be honest I don't think he should.
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  #73  
Old 05-30-2009, 04:37 AM
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No, to be honest I don't think he should.
Could you please explain why you think Britain should change their laws to deprive a hardworking dedicated Prince of Wales from his inheritance?
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  #74  
Old 05-30-2009, 05:36 AM
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Pg 10, 'The Jewels of Queen Elizabeth' by Leslie Field..."her will contained a schedule of jewels that were to be considered as 'belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it'
I wonder where she got her information from regarding the will, or if she details it at all.

We all know that certain items are deemed to belong to the crown and some personal, so it doesn't really give us any new information.
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  #75  
Old 05-30-2009, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
If Camilla does become Princess Consort, it sort of depends on how it's done. If they do an end run around the current situation where a monarch (and hence spouse) can't take other titles and announce that HM Queen Camilla will be known by the fictitious title of HRH Princess Consort, then she'll still be Queen even though she isn't called Queen, so the terms of Queen Victoria's will would be complied with. However, if legislation is passed to deprive her of the title of Queen and create her Princess Consort in her own right, or however they'd do it, that would be a different situation. Even then, what if she did show up wearing the Oriental Circlet or the George IV diadem? Apart from the tabloids having a field day, what, practically, could anybody do about it?
Quite right. It would be wonderful to see Camilla to recieve the title she deserves, after everything that the press and people around her have put her through she deserves to be by Charles' side when he becomes king. The press can make a fuss about her wearing jewels that she shouldn't have or doing things she shouldn't do but as you say Elspeth they cannot do anything. After everything that the press have thrown at Camilla she has come through with Charles and the royal family behind her. I would be incredible prod to have her as my Queen.
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  #76  
Old 05-30-2009, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I wonder where she got her information from regarding the will, or if she details it at all.

We all know that certain items are deemed to belong to the crown and some personal, so it doesn't really give us any new information.
According to the blurb on the book cover, she was granted access to the Royal Archives to do research for the book. This book is obviously aiming to be authoritative, and the Royal Archives access means that something presented as a direct quote (as this statement is) is more than likely exactly that.

The actual passage (1997 edition, page 11) is

"Royal wills are never made public so exactly how Queen Victoria divided her vast private fortune among her descendants cannot be known for certain. However her will included a schedule of jewels that were to be considered 'as belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it.' The list included those Hanoverian jewels which Queen Victoria had kept after the resolution of the court case in 1858, the King George IV State Diadem, which now became part of the Crown Regalia, and a number of pieces of jewellery that she had been given by Prince Albert or that they had designed together from stones already in the royal collection. The rest of her jewellery was divided among her children and grandchildren."

So the bit about "all future Queens" might mean that every Queen has to wear each of those pieces at least once!
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  #77  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:21 PM
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So the bit about "all future Queens" might mean that every Queen has to wear each of those pieces at least once!
That thought occurred to me when I read that passage.

I had delightful visions of:

He: "Put it on, you have to wear it, Queen Victoria said so!"
She: "No, no, no! It's hideous."
He: "Pleeeease?!"
She: "No!"



One could argue that the words don't say that no-one else can wear them, just that the queens have to.

But as I've said previously, I don't think it matters. They belong to the Crown, and the monarch for the time being can decide who gets to wear the baubles.
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  #78  
Old 05-31-2009, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
So the bit about "all future Queens" might mean that every Queen has to wear each of those pieces at least once!
thanks Elspeth, for taking the time to type it all out. It could of course mean that all future Queens have a right to wear them, not that they have to or others can't.

With the vast array of goodies that will be at her disposal, will Camilla be distraught at not wearing one or two bits and pieces anyway?
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  #79  
Old 05-31-2009, 05:25 AM
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With the vast array of goodies that will be at her disposal, will Camilla be distraught at not wearing one or two bits and pieces anyway?
I strongly doubt it.
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  #80  
Old 05-31-2009, 09:34 AM
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Camilla seems too comfortable in her own skin to care about all that sort of rubbish. She seems more likely to care if what she doesn't wear is read or misread as a slight against her husband. Like it or not, it is a factor.

Jewelery has always been a status symbol but in royal circles it is in fact, "in your face shorthand"! Just check out the State Banquet for President Sarkozy. The Queen, followed the dictates of the government on that occasion and really pushed the boat out, her sparklers being the icing on the cake (oh how insignificant was that itsy bitsy diamond brooch?).

We all know it and if it didn't really matter we would not be talking about the type of jewels she will be entitled to wear on a "Will Charles Ever Reign? thread.
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