Will Charles Ever Reign? part 4

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by chrissy57

However, if the Assembly did express a desire for the King not to use the title the King would be unwise, as a constitutional monarch bound to accept the advice of his ministers (including his Welsh minister) to go against that advice.

If the Welsh Assembly did tell Charles that they didn't want the Prince of Wales title to be given to an English prince (who has been seen actively supporting English sporting teams against Welsh ones for example) then Charles would really be bound to follow that advice, just as if the English/British PM advised him to do something.

It may indeed be unwise for the King to do it, but it would still be his right. Welsh ministers cannot advise the monarch on the Principality of Wales.

The Welsh Assembly only has the ability to legislate regarding certain matters. The ministers can thus only advise the monarch on these matters. The Principality of Wales and Earldom of Chester do not fall into the scope granted by Parliament, and thus the view of Welsh ministers on them is legally void. It may very well be taken into consideration, and probably should, but it would not bind the King as advice from the Prime Minister would.

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by wbenson

It may indeed be unwise for the King to do it, but it would still be his right. Welsh ministers cannot advise the monarch on the Principality of Wales.

The Welsh Assembly only has the ability to legislate regarding certain matters. The ministers can thus only advise the monarch on these matters. The Principality of Wales and Earldom of Chester do not fall into the scope granted by Parliament, and thus the view of Welsh ministers on them is legally void. It may very well be taken into consideration, and probably should, but it would not bind the King as advice from the Prime Minister would.

Do you really think that if the Welsh Assembly advised the King that he shouldn't do something to do with Wales that the King would go against that advice?

I don't.

He may legally be able to ignore it but I think it would be extremely unwise to do so.

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by chrissy57

Do you really think that if the Welsh Assembly advised the King that he shouldn't do something to do with Wales that the King would go against that advice?

I don't.

He may legally be able to ignore it but I think it would be extremely unwise to do so.

Neither do I, unless the Prime Minister advised him to. He would then be bound to go against the advice of the Assembly. I doubt the PM would make motions either way, however, as this matter is typically reserved for the Sovereign's personal judgment.

[jcbcode99]

That sounds like lot of "ifs" to me; are we just speculating here? Has this been mentioned regularly? Does the Welsh Assembly want to take the title away? I've been searching on and off all day and I can't find anything that says they do--that doesn't mean anything, but if it were a predominant situation, then there would be more information out there about it, wouldn't there?
Chrissy57, I am very curious now! Do you have any information you might be able to post about this brewing topic? I'm fascinated and must know more!

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by jcbcode99

That sounds like lot of "ifs" to me; are we just speculating here? Has this been mentioned regularly? Does the Welsh Assembly want to take the title away? I've been searching on and off all day and I can't find anything that says they do--that doesn't mean anything, but if it were a predominant situation, then there would be more information out there about it, wouldn't there?
Chrissy57, I am very curious now! Do you have any information you might be able to post about this brewing topic? I'm fascinated and must know more!

As far as I am aware there has been no open discussion of this particular issue but there certainly is growing Welsh nationalism and having a Prince of Wales who is actually English doesn't sit well with some Welsh.

On my last tour of Wales my TD said exactly that - that the Welsh people were getting more and more a desire to do away with open signs of being under 'English' control. We also went to Cornwall on that trip and the comment there was that there was a growing move for Cornwall to be seen as a separate entity. How strong that sentiment is I really don't know but there were far more Cornish flags flying everywhere rather than either English or British ones. Virtually every second home had some form of Cornish flag and only public buidlings had the British/English one. In Wales I don't think I saw many British flags as all but lots of Welsh ones. The Welsh people I spoke too made it clear to me that many of them would like even more independence from England/Britain but they aren't being as pushy about it, yet, as the Scottish.

In short my comments are based on personal observation, asking questions of people and information presented to us by a professional tour guide whose job is to present facts and opinions about local matters.

[Elspeth]

I sort of hope there's at least one more Princess of Wales. Having been born in Wales and raised there for a few years before moving to England, I know about the nationalism and some of the residual resentment against England for ancient injustices, coupled with modern feelings that the British parliament standardly rides roughshod over Welsh interests any time they don't coincide with English interests.

However, this would be bound to be reported in the press as some sort of victory from beyond the grave for Diana, that she was so popular and the royal family was so relatively worthless that they had to retire the Prince of Wales title because nobody would ever be able to measure up to Diana as Princess of Wales etc etc. And, honestly, after this latest episode over the memorial service, I'm getting a bit fed up with the way the press uses the memory of Diana to undermine the royal family.

It's also true that the Duke of Cornwall has a bunch of Scottish titles, and if the Scottish Assembly decided to get stroppy about it, would we be in danger of losing the Rothesay, Carrick, and Renfrew titles from the royal family too?

[branchg]

We'll have to see what transpires in the future, but I doubt the Prime Minister would advise The King not to grant it again. Short of huge protests in the streets of Wales, the momentum politically wouldn't be there to deny an ancient title to the new heir.

[Royal Fan]

Who will most likely be the Major Players that day in Westminster Abbey?

[Elspeth]

The King and the Archbishop of Canterbury.

[jcbcode99]

Posted by Chrissy:
As far as I am aware there has been no open discussion of this particular issue but there certainly is growing Welsh nationalism and having a Prince of Wales who is actually English doesn't sit well with some Welsh.

So, this discussion about ending the Prince of Wales title is based on "some Welsh" individuals? It is part of a movement that really doesn't have much momemtum, in fact, there is very little info at all out there about the Welsh Nationalism Movement. I don't really have an opinion about Welsh Nationalism--I actually think that the whole thing has merit, actually.but I find it difficult to fathom that "some Welsh" are going to change a hereditary title that has been used since the 1200's. As I have said, if I understand it, the Welsh Nationalism Movement was formed to preserve the history of Wales and once again, regardless of the title's history, the Prince of Wales is a valuable commodity in Wales. I cannot see Wales deliberately pushing that away. Perhaps the next Prince of Wales could be even more involved in Wales--perhaps if there is more of a presence there will be less talk of this.

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by jcbcode99

Posted by Chrissy:
As far as I am aware there has been no open discussion of this particular issue but there certainly is growing Welsh nationalism and having a Prince of Wales who is actually English doesn't sit well with some Welsh.

So, this discussion about ending the Prince of Wales title is based on "some Welsh" individuals? It is part of a movement that really doesn't have much momemtum, in fact, there is very little info at all out there about the Welsh Nationalism Movement. I don't really have an opinion about Welsh Nationalism--I actually think that the whole thing has merit, actually.but I find it difficult to fathom that "some Welsh" are going to change a hereditary title that has been used since the 1200's. As I have said, if I understand it, the Welsh Nationalism Movement was formed to preserve the history of Wales and once again, regardless of the title's history, the Prince of Wales is a valuable commodity in Wales. I cannot see Wales deliberately pushing that away. Perhaps the next Prince of Wales could be even more involved in Wales--perhaps if there is more of a presence there will be less talk of this.

The Prince of Wales title is NOT an hereditary title. It has to be created anew for each holder. Charles had to wait 6 years before getting that title.

Welsh Nationalism is a very real thing. It may not have the support of the majority of Welsh people but it does exist.

As for Wales being a country please note that in things like the current Rugby World Cup, the Commonwealth Games, the Football World Cup, Wales competes as a separate country to that of England, Scotland, Ireland (compete as one country in Rugby but as two in Football). Even the controlling body of English cricket is called the English and WELSH cricket board (with both Scotland and Ireland having separate boards and competing separately at the Cricket World Cup). The Welsh that I have spoken to definitely see themselves as different to the English.

[BeatrixFan]

The problem is, the Welsh have been convinced that they're a country and that they can throw their weight about like the Scots. Sadly they're mistaken and I very much doubt they'll ever be listened to on a matter such as this.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

The problem is, the Welsh have been convinced that they're a country and that they can throw their weight about like the Scots. Sadly they're mistaken and I very much doubt they'll ever be listened to on a matter such as this.

Wales isnt a country? Since when? if you ask someone from Wales what is their nationality, it's Welsh. If you ask them what country they are from they say Wales, not Great Britain, right?

[BeatrixFan]

Wales is a Principality that is part of Britain. There's a Welsh nationality at a push but there isn't such thing as Wales the country.

[Elspeth]

Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are all part of the UK. All three of them have separatist movements. They all used to be independent countries (although the territories weren't always the same over time because of feuding claims, but that's also the case for the early English territories), even though Wales had ruling princes rather than kings. Principalities and Grand Duchies are countries just the same as kingdoms. Part of the problem in Wales, and the reason why the separatist movement isn't just a few extremists any more, is the perception that the English attitude to Wales is one of pretty much open contempt. When the Prince of Wales prefers to spend his holidays in Scotland, when his wealth comes from the Duchy of Cornwall, when his son takes on a position at the Welsh Rugby Union while being an avowed England fan, and when the Prince himself talked about a prospective bride and said he'd like her to be English and then had to add a very insincere "or maybe Welsh" or whatever it was, it becomes very relevant to ask exactly what is the point of continuing this "Prince of Wales" stuff.

[COUNTESS]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are all part of the UK. All three of them have separatist movements. They all used to be independent countries (although the territories weren't always the same over time because of feuding claims, but that's also the case for the early English territories), even though Wales had ruling princes rather than kings. Principalities and Grand Duchies are countries just the same as kingdoms. Part of the problem in Wales, and the reason why the separatist movement isn't just a few extremists any more, is the perception that the English attitude to Wales is one of pretty much open contempt. When the Prince of Wales prefers to spend his holidays in Scotland, when his wealth comes from the Duchy of Cornwall, when his son takes on a position at the Welsh Rugby Union while being an avowed England fan, and when the Prince himself talked about a prospective bride and said he'd like her to be English and then had to add a very insincere "or maybe Welsh" or whatever it was, it becomes very relevant to ask exactly what is the point of continuing this "Prince of Wales" stuff.

Ergo Wales is a country and your assessment is very astute. The contempt was shown when it was said that they weren't a country. Seems to me they are an occupied country, that is getting to dislike that fact.

[jcbcode99]

You are quite right--the title is not hereditary and that was a poor use of words on my part. It is a title that is traditionallly granted to the heir apparent or the reigning monarch of the UK. So, it is not hereditary but it is based on lineage and thusly bestowing the title is a long, time honored tradition filled with its own history.
I don't believe I said that Welsh Nationalism did not exist; I said it was a movement that does not have a great deal of support based on the lack of information I was able to obtain on the topic. As you said yourself, "it may not have the support of the majority of Welsh people, but it does exist". That is exactly what I am saying--it is a movement with not a lot of support, which the majority of the Welsh people (to my knowledge) do not support. The small amount of information I found on the topic discussed that Welsh Nationalism seeks to preserve the history of Wales, and my point is that the Prince of Wales has been part of the history of Wales since the 1200's. I understand that Wales is a country, that they have their own customs, opinions, and ideas. Those should be respected and encouraged. I just think that it would be a mistake to no longer have a Prince of Wales.

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by jcbcode99

You are quite right--the title is not hereditary and that was a poor use of words on my part. It is a title that is traditionallly granted to the heir apparent or the reigning monarch of the UK. So, it is not hereditary but it is based on lineage and thusly bestowing the title is a long, time honored tradition filled with its own history.
I don't believe I said that Welsh Nationalism did not exist; I said it was a movement that does not have a great deal of support based on the lack of information I was able to obtain on the topic. As you said yourself, "it may not have the support of the majority of Welsh people, but it does exist". That is exactly what I am saying--it is a movement with not a lot of support, which the majority of the Welsh people (to my knowledge) do not support. The small amount of information I found on the topic discussed that Welsh Nationalism seeks to preserve the history of Wales, and my point is that the Prince of Wales has been part of the history of Wales since the 1200's. I understand that Wales is a country, that they have their own customs, opinions, and ideas. Those should be respected and encouraged. I just think that it would be a mistake to no longer have a Prince of Wales.

To Welsh Nationalists however having an ENGLISH Prince of Wales is a problem. They see it as a sign of their oppression and subjugation by the English for the last 800 or so years. Rather than seeing it as part of their heritage Welsh nationalists see it as the opposite - a sign of the loss of heritage in the 1200s when they last had a truly WELSH Prince of Wales.

[Elspeth]

To Welsh Nationalists however having an ENGLISH Prince of Wales is a problem. They see it as a sign of their oppression and subjugation by the English for the last 800 or so years. Rather than seeing it as part of their heritage Welsh nationalists see it as the opposite - a sign of the loss of heritage in the 1200s when they last had a truly WELSH Prince of Wales.

And not just the extremists, either. Between the way Edward I ended any real chance of Wales being seen as a separate entity but went down in history as the Hammer of the Scots, as though destroying Wales was unimportant, and the recent political history where Welsh interests have been consistently ignored by Parliament, there isn't a heck of a lot of love lost between a lot of Welsh people and the English. I was born in Wales and raised there for a while before we moved to England, and my English mother was a lot more disliked by many of the natives than my middle-European Jewish father. And the feeling was thoroughly mutual; she had the typical English superiority complex toward the Welsh.

The fact that the current royal family seems pretty much disengaged from Wales isn't helping. Prince Charles's stint at Aberystwyth University was seen as a sort of sop to the tiresome Welsh, who had the almighty nerve to expect him to make more of his Prince of Wales name than just have a signet ring with three feathers on it. Yet it was reported in the press as though he'd had to go through this massive inconvenience for the sake of these ungrateful nonentities when he could have been doing so many greater things at Cambridge. And then people wonder why he isn't acclaimed in Wales as one of their own. He's carrying on the centuries-old tradition of being an English prince who's been imposed on the Welsh to let them know how low they are in the pecking order.

[cde]

Nor does it help that until about six months ago, Charles didn't own any property in Wales. C+C go there for about a week or so once a year. His sons never learned Welsh. C+C, when they aren't in England, go to Scotland. The Scottish locals say C+C have made a genuine effort in geting involved in the local community. It is a pity this hasn't been done in Wales. It could help a bit. Hopefully since they bought that property they might start to spend a bit more time in Wales. IMO one of Charles' failings has been his neglect of Wales particuarly his best title is Prince of Wales