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  #141  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess olga
Charles has already said he'll be "defender of all faiths".
Would someone please explain to me how this would be possible?
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  #142  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avareenah
Would someone please explain to me how this would be possible?
I don't have a problem with other people practising their own faith, as long as they are not trying to ram it down my throat, I would defend their right to believe what they want.

I would presume that Charles wants people to be free to worship whatever god they want and he would like to be able to defend their right to do that.
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  #143  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
I don't have a problem with other people practising their own faith, as long as they are not trying to ram it down my throat, I would defend their right to believe what they want.

I would presume that Charles wants people to be free to worship whatever god they want and he would like to be able to defend their right to do that.

Which is why I believe the actual quote was 'Defender of faith' - no ALL in the term at all.
  #144  
Old 01-20-2007, 02:15 PM
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He should be Defender of the (Christian) Faith, while giving attention to ALL faiths does that make sense.
  #145  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:13 PM
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"Defender of the Faith" in the context of the monarch means that the monarch, if proclaimed "Defender of the Faith" at his/her coronation, follows the belief system, supports and is aligned with the Church of England.

Therefore, when the time comes, Charles simply can't say he's "Defender of Faiths". You cannot make faith generic. No one can align themselves with all "faiths" because many stand for such different things.

He could probably say that he respects all faiths or something similar but other than that, this simply couldn't work.

Anyhow, I believe he's been told by the Church of England that no changes will be made to this aspect of the coronation ceremony when the time comes. Whether Charles truly does follow the Church of England is open to question. He is certainly interested in other religions as, supposedly, he reads the Koran daily.
  #146  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:04 PM
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well, hmm, I think first of all that:
1. William is more likely to choose to keep his first name than Charles - he just seems like he's had a more normal life than Charles and wants to continue having a more normal life than Charles.
2. I agree that William probably isn't fully prepared for the responsibilities of King and wouldn't accept them over his father. I imagine, his father would have to die or at least get so far along in age that he's unable to continue his duties effectively for William to take them over. I'm not saying that William is an irresponsible person, but, growing up with a more normal childhood than Charles, he probably does not have quite as much experience in dealing with the responsibilities as Charles did at his age. Also, I believe Charles became Prince of Wales fairly young, while William probably wouldn't have that title (& responsibilities) for a while yet.
3. About the idea of changing Charles' title of Defender of the Faith (to "Defender of all Faiths" or whatever it is they want to change it to) - I think a compromise can be reached where the main religion is most recognised and continued to be the religion of the King / Queen, but acknowledges that their subjects do have the freedom to investigate other religions and join them if they so desire.
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  #147  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avareenah
"Defender of the Faith" in the context of the monarch means that the monarch, if proclaimed "Defender of the Faith" at his/her coronation, follows the belief system, supports and is aligned with the Church of England.
Is this all it means? I think the original title granted to Henry VIII meant more than that. It was made in recognition of his Defence of the current faith. I haven't read what he said, but I understand he had taken a positive stance against Luther's writings. Therefore the title implies that there has been, or may be, an attack on or challenge to "the Faith", and the holder has defended, or is obliged to defend, that Faith. This would mean defending the Church of England in the event of conflicts with other religions. The word also has, IMO anyway, a "Crusading" connotation which is probably best let go.

This could get a bit tricky for Charles in view of his interest in other religions, especially Islam. I think it's time to dispense with the title and just have him as Supreme Governor of the CofE. I initially thought that it should stay, but I've reconsidered and now I think the expression is anachronistic and should go. The UK can still have a state religion and the monarch can still be its Supreme Governor without being its Defender. Removing it and not replacing it with "Defender of Faith" would also have the benefit of not raising the hackles of subjects who hold to no "Faith".

Quote:
Therefore, when the time comes, Charles simply can't say he's "Defender of Faiths". You cannot make faith generic. No one can align themselves with all "faiths" because many stand for such different things.

He could probably say that he respects all faiths or something similar but other than that, this simply couldn't work.
I agree. "Defender of Faith" is a completely different thing from "Defender of the Faith". It would be as significant a change as removing "Defender of the Faith".

If Charles just wants to say he respects all faiths and his subjects' right to practise their religions, he can just make a statement to that effect. There's no need to make it part of the Coronation ceremony.
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  #148  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:29 PM
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[quote][I think the poeple who don´t believe that Charles will be the next King are out of reality./QUOTE]

How so? I don't think that it is written in stone that Charles will outlive his mother. Anything is possible.
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  #149  
Old 01-20-2007, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234
Quote:
I think the poeple who don´t believe that Charles will be the next King are out of reality.
How so? I don't think that it is written in stone that Charles will outlive his mother. Anything is possible.

That's true, but have you heard anything about Charles being ill a lot or suffering medical problems? No you haven't. It's a safe bet that he will outlive his mother and if for some tragic reason he does not, then William is King when the Queen dies.
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  #150  
Old 01-20-2007, 09:00 PM
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[quote=sirhon11234]
Quote:
[I think the poeple who don´t believe that Charles will be the next King are out of reality./QUOTE]

How so? I don't think that it is written in stone that Charles will outlive his mother. Anything is possible.
But most of those who are saying that Charles shouldn't be the next king are actually wanting to replace him with William.

In other words what they want is to pass over Charles.

Obviously if Charles died first then William will be the next king but otherwise Charles should be and will be, even if there are people who are eager to see him passed over - I suspect that most of those people are Dianafanatics who want to continue to punish Charles for the failure of his marriage.


I don't know where I read it but I am sure that I have read somewhere that William has said that he won't be king while his father lives as he loves and respects his father and the wonderful work that Charles has done and is doing for the nation.
  #151  
Old 01-21-2007, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
The word also has, IMO anyway, a "Crusading" connotation which is probably best let go........
This could get a bit tricky for Charles in view of his interest in other religions, especially Islam. I think it's time to dispense with the title and just have him as Supreme Governor of the CofE. I initially thought that it should stay, but I've reconsidered and now I think the expression is anachronistic and should go. The UK can still have a state religion and the monarch can still be its Supreme Governor without being its Defender. Removing it and not replacing it with "Defender of Faith" would also have the benefit of not raising the hackles of subjects who hold to no "Faith". ......
.....If Charles just wants to say he respects all faiths and his subjects' right to practise their religions, he can just make a statement to that effect. There's no need to make it part of the Coronation ceremony.
Very well thought out post, the only thing I have to disagree on is that the UK does not have a state religion.
  #152  
Old 01-21-2007, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
Very well thought out post, the only thing I have to disagree on is that the UK does not have a state religion.
Saucy, pedantic wretch! OK. How about State religion of England.
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  #153  
Old 02-03-2007, 10:30 PM
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if he chooses Arthur or Philip as his "Roya"l name will there be a numeral?
  #154  
Old 02-03-2007, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Fan
if he chooses Arthur or Philip as his "Roya"l name will there be a numeral?


If he chooses Philip, he'd be Philip III......I think? Philip II of Spain, who was married to Mary I, was King Consort of England, so I think that counts.

If he goes by Arthur, he'd have no numeral.
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  #155  
Old 02-04-2007, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
If he chooses Philip, he'd be Philip III......I think? Philip II of Spain, who was married to Mary I, was King Consort of England, so I think that counts.

If he goes by Arthur, he'd have no numeral.

Philip II of Spain was never King of England in his own right and therefore his number shouldn't count in England.

When Mary I died Philip ceased to be the Consort of England or have any role in the government - even ordering the Armada to sail against England.

When Mary II died William III remained as King in his own right.

There is a difference - consorts don't have numbers and therefore they don't count.

If he chose Philip he would be just Philip (and a later Philip would be Philip II of the UK etc).


Arthur, on the other hand, could have a numeral - namely II, if you accept that King Arthur ever existed. As I am not convinced one way or the other the safe bet would be no numeral (and no to Arthur as his regnal name anyway).
  #156  
Old 02-04-2007, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
Saucy, pedantic wretch! OK. How about State religion of England.
England has an Established Church, not a state religion. Don't ask me what the difference is, but apparently it's significant in some way that the CofE is the Established Church and not the Official Church.
  #157  
Old 02-04-2007, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
England has an Established Church, not a state religion. Don't ask me what the difference is, but apparently it's significant in some way that the CofE is the Established Church and not the Official Church.
Had a quick look at Wiki, and I still can't see any difference.

Established Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In English history, the Established Church is the Church of England, the church which is established by the Government, supported by it, and of which the monarch is the titular head.."

"In a more general sense, the Established Church is the church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country.."

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A state religion (also called an official religion, established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state."

"State religions are examples of the official or government-sanctioned establishment of religion, as distinct from theocracy."

There could well be some distinction that's significant to some, but I don't think I care enough to spend any more time on the subject, particularly since my attention is wandering to the new Bougainvillea I want to repot before nightfall.
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  #158  
Old 02-07-2007, 11:46 PM
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"Defender Of The Faith" certainly seems to have lost its meaning over a very short period of time. Less than a century ago, we wouldn't have been having this debate at all. We wouldn't dare!
I agree with comments made earlier that we are a much more self centered generation.
It would appear that 400 years of tradition, countless executions, wars and sacrifice made in it's name were for nothing. This generation forgets all too quickly.

But I'm not gonna start that again. Anything I say will most certainly be deleted!

Aside from this major little problem, Charles will make a great King. He certainly won't abdicate and neither will the Queen. The Queen sees abdication as a dereliction of duty, as she was brought up in the wake of the scandalous abdication of her uncle. I would imagine she has firmly passed this belief on to Charles.
  #159  
Old 02-08-2007, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Marie
We wouldn't dare!
I agree with comments made earlier that we are a much more self centered generation.
It would appear that 400 years of tradition, countless executions, wars and sacrifice made in it's name were for nothing. This generation forgets all too quickly.
Executions, wars and sacrifice, no wonder Charles wants to move away from that, what a glowing example, hardly something to be proud of?

There are many instances of todays generation being self centered, more than that, most people are now more aware.

I don't believe that Charles need to be religious in any way, to be a good King, perhaps it is time to remove defender of ??? from the ceremony altogether.
  #160  
Old 02-08-2007, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
I don't believe that Charles need to be religious in any way, to be a good King, perhaps it is time to remove defender of ??? from the ceremony altogether.
Would the CofE need to be disestablished before they could do that?
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