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  #281  
Old 06-03-2007, 06:05 PM
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Well I accept that but for the short term, surely Charles is more important and let's face it, it's during his reign that we could well face talk of republic.
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  #282  
Old 06-03-2007, 09:24 PM
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My point was, that this was an immovable sticking point with the Church of England re: the coronation of the last PoW leading to Edward VII becoming Duke of Windsor ie,the marriage to a divorcee. The fact that the Sovereign is also the Head of the Church, etc. Although I bevieve that (correct me if i'm wrong) if the DoC's previous husband is deceased, she would be in the same position as the PoW is presently...considered a widow by the church. Start the conspiracy engines now!
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  #283  
Old 06-03-2007, 09:26 PM
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But the Church of England doesn't have the same power it had back then. One step out of line and wap - the Archbishop of Canterbury will find himself down the job centre.
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  #284  
Old 06-03-2007, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
My point was, that this was an immovable sticking point with the Church of England re: the coronation of the last PoW leading to Edward VII becoming Duke of Windsor ie,the marriage to a divorcee. The fact that the Sovereign is also the Head of the Church, etc. Although I bevieve that (correct me if i'm wrong) if the DoC's previous husband is deceased, she would be in the same position as the PoW is presently...considered a widow by the church. Start the conspiracy engines now!
The church has changed its opinion somewhat about the remarriage of divorcees since the 1930s. I don't think this is going to be nearly the sticking point that it was back then. After allowing a Church of England service of prayer and dedication after Charles's second wedding, the Archbishop would be on rather shaky grounds if he wanted to raise objections to a coronation on the grounds of Charle's marital state. I have a feeling that might just lead to disestablishment of the church to avoid the need for a religious coronation rather than to Charles abdicating, so the Church has quite a bit to lose if it decides to dig in over this.
  #285  
Old 06-03-2007, 09:56 PM
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While Edward VII became King automatically, he was never crowned because of the aforementioned 'issue'. Perhaps it's just my perception of the Church of England being 'high church'-y. Dont they refuse to ordain gays, dont recognise divorce etc.? If they were to be sticky, is there any mechanism possible to have a non religious Coronation? I'm not sure how you would do it.
  #286  
Old 06-03-2007, 09:57 PM
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crossposting!
  #287  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:06 PM
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For the moment, with the CofE being the Established Church, I don't think there's a mechanism to have a coronation ceremony that isn't religious. There would be no authority figure with precedence over the monarch, so the king would have to crown himself or there'd have to be a nonreligious enthronement of some sort.
  #288  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:14 PM
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Dont they refuse to ordain gays, dont recognise divorce etc.?
They ordain gay, bisexual and transgender clergy and recognise divorce. All with the Queen's blessing.
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  #289  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:23 PM
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I personally am not a religious person, so I dont really understand why so many people feel so strongly what Archbishop whosiwhatsit thinks. It's also hard, as an American, where (theoretically) we have separation of Church and State to understand why this issue would be important to them, but there you go. I guess this is as good a reason as any that the founders of our constitution were clear on the subject. Haha. In the many times I have been to England, I never got the feeling that it was religiously 'diverse' (please dont shout!). Perhaps I was not paying attention, as I said it's not that impotant to me.
  #290  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
They ordain gay, bisexual and transgender clergy and recognise divorce. All with the Queen's blessing.
Really! That's great! In this country, the Anglican and Episcopalian Church (roughly the same yes?) are deeply divided on this subject, with the conservatives sounding slightly out of the stone age. All religions have thier own craziness. My family is catholic and I have had many 'spirited discusssions' about the church not ordaining gays, women, married men etc I can tell you!
  #291  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
They ordain gay, bisexual and transgender clergy and recognise divorce. All with the Queen's blessing.
What a forward way for Her Majesty to be! Has Charles expressed an opinion on this front? Maybe some relief that the Queen did bless the issue so that he wouldn't have to when his time comes as king.
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  #292  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:37 PM
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The Church of England itself is somewhat divided also; however, I think the deepest divisions are between the more liberal western branches of the Episcopal church and the more conservative African ones.

However, the position of the Church of England on divorce, which is the issue where Prince Charles is concerned, has softened somewhat from the earlier position where remarriage of divorcees was prohibited altogether; now some divorcees can remarry in church, but it's somewhat left up to the conscience of the individual clergy. However, it's still deeply frowned on for a second marriage to take place with the person who was considered a factor in the breakup of the first marriage, so Charles and Camilla weren't eligible for a church wedding even under the more relaxed regime. Whether things will lighten up some more by the time Charles becomes King is anybody's guess.
  #293  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:42 PM
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But wasn't the Princess of Wales entitled to a church wedding why not Charles ?
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  #294  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:45 PM
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It's the part about the concience of the individual clergy that I'm referring. It's a long way to go in your prom dress if your date is going to stand you up! Seriously, His mother, more than likely will be here for many years. Who knows what may come to pass?
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Old 06-03-2007, 10:50 PM
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But wasn't the Princess of Wales entitled to a church wedding why not Charles ?
I dont think the Princess of Wales would have had/been interested in another C of E big wedding; especially if marrying someone not a christian . Interestingly, I think her wedding to whomever (but especially a muslim) would have been very similar to Charles and Camilla's civil service.
  #296  
Old 06-03-2007, 10:51 PM
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Really! That's great! In this country, the Anglican and Episcopalian Church (roughly the same yes?) are deeply divided on this subject, with the conservatives sounding slightly out of the stone age.
We have at least 2 gay Bishops and several transgenger vicars, one of whom has just been put forward to the Queen on the recommendation that she be made a Bishop (the vicar not the Queen). The Church of England doesn't offer marriage services for divorcees or same-sex couples but they do offer wedding blessings. The Church now offers weddings for transsexuals on the individual agreement of the local clergy member who would host the wedding, however, the candidate for marriage has to be marrying someone of the opposite sex and not be a divorcee.

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What a forward way for Her Majesty to be! Has Charles expressed an opinion on this front?
No. Nor has the Queen, it's all been done in Her name by Her Bishops.

Quote:
But wasn't the Princess of Wales entitled to a church wedding why not Charles ?
She was entitled to a church wedding however had she wanted to marry again she would have had to have a civil wedding with a blessing just as Charles had second time round because she, like him, was a divorcee.
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  #297  
Old 06-03-2007, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
We have at least 2 gay Bishops and several transgenger vicars, one of whom has just been put forward to the Queen on the recommendation that she be made a Bishop (the vicar not the Queen). The Church of England doesn't offer marriage services for divorcees or same-sex couples but they do offer wedding blessings. The Church now offers weddings for transsexuals on the individual agreement of the local clergy member who would host the wedding, however, the candidate for marriage has to be marrying someone of the opposite sex and not be a divorcee.
B


No. Nor has the Queen, it's all been done in Her name by Her Bishops.



She was entitled to a church wedding however had she wanted to marry again she would have had to have a civil wedding with a blessing just as Charles had second time round because she, like him, was a divorcee.

So do they ordain women who were not once men? (Haha). This is one of the reasons I fell away from religion! Bossy Boots one and all. Seriously though, I have always wondered why Charles (and Camilla) did not choose to be married in the church in Scotland as did Princess Anne and Tim Lawrence. I'm sure there was much parsing and consultations and negotiation involved with many men in grey and assorted other colours.
  #298  
Old 06-03-2007, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
While Edward VII became King automatically, he was never crowned because of the aforementioned 'issue'.
Only indirectly. He abdicated because of the issue, which is why he was never crowned. The coronation of Edward VIII was scheduled for May 1937. When George VI became King, he decided to keep the same date for himself.
  #299  
Old 06-03-2007, 11:42 PM
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They ordain women who were born physically male yes but each denomination is different in who they will or won't ordain. In a way, the Church of England had to accept that because of the law change in 2004/5 and the Queen's Church and the Queen's Government can't really be seen as putting out two different messages.
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  #300  
Old 06-03-2007, 11:43 PM
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Well, we'll just have to see how it turns out when Charles's time comes to be King. I still think the church has more to lose than he does by making an issue about the coronation, though.
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