Will Charles Ever Reign?

[ysbel]

This is turning into the Charles/Camilla/Diana thread and not productive in my opinion. Isn't the topic...Will Charles Ever Reign?

Good point Zonk and Warren.

OK, let me throw out a hypothetical situation to you.

What if Charles and Diana had not been allowed to divorce and still estranged, would Charles have ascended the throne? Would Diana have been crowned Queen?

On one hand I would have said yes, because it is the laws of succession but on the other hand I remember Penny Junor giving an interview right after the separation, and she said, the monarchy could handle two separate courts for the King and Queen but it couldn't survive having two rival courts of King and Queen fighting against each other.

So, what do you think?

 

[Zonk]

I think Charles would have been crowned King..and they would have resolved the Charles/Diana situation by either divorcing or coming to sort of reconciliation (at least publicy). Towards the end of her life...they (Charles and Diana) did reach an amicable relationship. If for no other reason than the children...they were being civil to each other.

Now if this was back in the day...Charles would have been crowned King..and Diana would be knocking on the doors. Not to be offensive cause I love Diana...but didn't this happen with George I and his queen...Caroline or Charlotte? Can't remember off hand.

 

[ysbel]

It was George IV and Caroline of Brunswick. He was in the process of getting a divorce from her when he was crowned and had her locked out of the coronation. I don't think the divorce went through.

But I think that Charles and Diana were able to have a civil relationship because they were allowed the divorce. Without the divorce, Diana still would have been under the thumb of the Royal Family and protocol which she needed to get out from under. I'm not that certain that they would have been able to reach an amicable relationship without that divorce.

Charles could have waited till he became king to divorce but Kings can't just do what they want either. I think it would have been a really messy situation.

I think Charles would have been crowned King..and they would have resolved the Charles/Diana situation by either divorcing or coming to sort of reconciliation (at least publicy). Towards the end of her life...they (Charles and Diana) did reach an amicable relationship. If for no other reason than the children...they were being civil to each other.

Now if this was back in the day...Charles would have been crowned King..and Diana would be knocking on the doors. Not to be offensive cause I love Diana...but didn't this happen with George I and his queen...Caroline or Charlotte? Can't remember off hand.

 

[branchg]

What if Charles and Diana had not been allowed to divorce and still estranged, would Charles have ascended the throne? Would Diana have been crowned Queen?

Under the Act of Settlement, Charles is automatically King, so there would have been no question of his ascending the throne. Separated or not, Diana was still HRH The Princess of Wales, so she still would have been Queen Consort, at least legally.

In reality, once they achieved consent for a legal separation, divorce became inevitable and there is no way Diana would have become Queen after that.

 

[ysbel]

there is no way Diana would have become Queen after that.

After the separation or after the divorce? John Major made a point when announcing the separation that there would be no reason why Diana would not be crowned Queen even after the separation.

 

[BeatrixFan]

John Major made a point when announcing the separation that there would be no reason why Diana would not be crowned Queen even after the separation.

Thats ridiculous. How can you have a Queen who isn't married to a King? Can you imagine the embarrasement, the unhappiness and the problems? I suspect that was said to pacify the public, just as the Princess Consort thing is supposed to do now.

 

[Skydragon]

It was George IV and Caroline of Brunswick. He was in the process of getting a divorce from her when he was crowned and had her locked out of the coronation. I don't think the divorce went through.

Upon his coronation, the public rallied around him (before they had supported her).

 

[Skydragon]

Thats ridiculous. How can you have a Queen who isn't married to a King? Can you imagine the embarrasement, the unhappiness and the problems? I suspect that was said to pacify the public, just as the Princess Consort thing is supposed to do now.

I also think that was John Majors intention.

 

[ysbel]

Thats ridiculous. How can you have a Queen who isn't married to a King? Can you imagine the embarrasement, the unhappiness and the problems? I suspect that was said to pacify the public, just as the Princess Consort thing is supposed to do now.

Well if they were just separated, they'd still be legally married so constitutionally I guess she would be Queen.

But the problem I think was not the separation but the rivalry between the courts of Charles and Diana. I agree with Junor, I don't think the monarchy could have survived that.

Therefore, the Queen Mum pushed for the divorce.

 

[Skydragon]

Therefore, the Queen Mum pushed for the divorce.

I understood it was the Queen who pushed for them to divorce

 

[BeatrixFan]

According to Gyles Brandreth, the Queen told Charles that he had to divorce. The Queen Mother didn't want divorce in the family no matter who it affected. Suprisingly, again according to Brandreth, the Queen Mother loved Camilla just as much as she did Charles because she saw that Camilla made her grandson happy, but she had advised the Queen to stop the divorce of Charles and Diana from taking place.

 

[ysbel]

According to Gyles Brandreth, the Queen told Charles that he had to divorce. The Queen Mother didn't want divorce in the family no matter who it affected. Suprisingly, again according to Brandreth, the Queen Mother loved Camilla just as much as she did Charles because she saw that Camilla made her grandson happy, but she had advised the Queen to stop the divorce of Charles and Diana from taking place.

Hmm, I heard that Charles held off on divorce for fear of disappointing the Queen Mum but after the Panorama interview the Queen Mum realized that she was the reason they were holding off so she switched gears and pushed for the divorce

 

[BeatrixFan]

Where did you hear that? I'm inclined to believe Brandreth being a close friend of Charles's. He says that the Queen Mother didn't like the idea of divorce at all and so she advised against it.

 

[Warren]

Where did you hear that? I'm inclined to believe Brandreth being a close friend of Charles's. He says that the Queen Mother didn't like the idea of divorce at all and so she advised against it.

If we can be patient we may well find out for certain the Queen Mother's opinion when her official biography is published - 2006?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Isn't there one out now Warren? By Hugo Vickers? You can get that in Majesty Magazine already but it might not be out till 2006.

 

[Warren]

Isn't there one out now Warren? By Hugo Vickers? You can get that in Majesty Magazine already but it might not be out till 2006.

If it was out now we would have heard a lot of "what the Queen Mother really thought" about a whole range of things. But we haven't. So maybe the ads are for advance orders.
.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Must be - thanks for that Warren! I was going to order one and wouldn't have got one till next year.

 

[selrahc4]

Isn't there one out now Warren? By Hugo Vickers? You can get that in Majesty Magazine already but it might not be out till 2006.

The Hugo Vickers bio of The Queen Mother has been out for at least a month. Mine arrived around Oct 22 (ordered from amazon uk). It isn't the "official" biography, though. William Shawcross was chosen to write that and I expect he his diligently rooting through the archives at Windsor this very moment. King George VI died in 1952, but his official biography wasn't published until 1958, so perhaps we have a while to wait for the Queen Mother's.

 

[branchg]

By all accounts so far, the Queen Mother was adamantly against Charles and Diana separating, never mind divorce. And she most certainly did not accept Camilla nor would she receive her. The whole reason Charles could not broach the subject of marriage was because the Queen Mother refused to even consider it.

We'll have to wait for HM's official biography for the definitive answer.

 

[branchg]

I understood it was the Queen who pushed for them to divorce

It was really Prince Philip and Robert Fellowes, as well as advice by John Major and the Archbishop of Canterbury, that pushed the Queen to order a divorce. Major told the Queen the uncertainty and media onslaught was damaging the monarchy and a decision had to be made.

 

[BeatrixFan]

And she most certainly did not accept Camilla nor would she receive her.

Thats not quite true. Brandreth says that it was the Queen Mother who told Charles that he could be with Camilla at the Castle of Mey, away from the Press. He says that she liked her very much and had a fondness and a love for her because she made her grandson (who see adored) so happy. When he was on 'Richard and Judy' he said that Camilla met with the Queen Mother quite a few times.

 

[Elspeth]

Really, what a hypocrite. It's OK for them to have a clandestine affair and cheat on their spouses, but just let them try to do the honest thing and end their unhappy marriages to remarry, and that's strictly prohibited. Apparently the problem is not what you do, it's how many people know you're doing it.

 

[branchg]

Thats not quite true. Brandreth says that it was the Queen Mother who told Charles that he could be with Camilla at the Castle of Mey, away from the Press. He says that she liked her very much and had a fondness and a love for her because she made her grandson (who see adored) so happy. When he was on 'Richard and Judy' he said that Camilla met with the Queen Mother quite a few times.

The Queen Mother liked Camilla personally (she knew her for many years), but that's a far cry from accepting her as a member of the royal family. The Queen Mother didn't mind her grandson had a mistress who made him happy, as long as he kept it quiet and had no intention of marrying her. She met with Camilla over the years when she was still married to Andrew Parker-Bowles, but never with Charles as any sort of couple.

The Queen Mother's view was your duty to the monarchy always came first, regardless of happiness. The shock of the Abdication never left her and she would not accept Charles and Camilla marrying. It was just that simple.

 

[branchg]

Really, what a hypocrite. It's OK for them to have a clandestine affair and cheat on their spouses, but just let them try to do the honest thing and end their unhappy marriages to remarry, and that's strictly prohibited. Apparently the problem is not what you do, it's how many people know you're doing it.

Very true! But the Queen Mother felt divorce was the death knell to the monarchy and would not change her view of one's duty to the Crown.

 

[BeatrixFan]

The Queen Mother liked Camilla personally (she knew her for many years), but that's a far cry from accepting her as a member of the royal family.

Ah, lets not confuse ourselves here. You said, "And she most certainly did not accept Camilla nor would she receive her". You didn't say, "She wouldn't accept her as a member of the Royal Family".

The Queen Mother's view was your duty to the monarchy always came first, regardless of happiness. The shock of the Abdication never left her and she would not accept Charles and Camilla marrying. It was just that simple

I think there's too much made of the Abdication as if it devastated the Queen Mother. She should have been grateful for it. It made her Queen and her daughter Queen. We don't know that she was rocked by it or that it wounded her deeply. Thats speculation.

 

[branchg]

I think there's too much made of the Abdication as if it devastated the Queen Mother. She should have been grateful for it. It made her Queen and her daughter Queen. We don't know that she was rocked by it or that it wounded her deeply. Thats speculation.

There is plenty of credible material written over the years stating the Queen Mother never forgave her brother-in-law for abdicating and forcing she and her husband to become King and Queen. She blamed the Duke and Duchess for years for the death of George VI, insisting he died early because the burden of the throne killed him (although he died of lung cancer from his incessant smoking, as did the Duke).

 

[BeatrixFan]

She blamed the Duke and Duchess for years for the death of George VI, insisting he died early because the burden of the throne killed him (although he died of lung cancer from his incessant smoking, as did the Duke)

Are you sure? The Queen Mother sent many notes and messages to Wallis and it seemed as if all was forgotten, even signing them 'In Friendship'. That ended when Wallis died in 1986, so she must have gotten over George's death by then? And the Abdication. I doubt she remained bitter until she died in 2002.

 

[Zonk]

If I recall..the thaw in the Queen Mother and the Duchess of Windsor's relationship didn't occur until after the Duke of Windsor had died.

In regards to the Abdication..she accepted the responsibility of their new position but I don't think she forgave the Duke. Yes, lung cancer killed the King but the pressure of the job was a factor as well.

In regards to the Camilla situation, based upon what I read. Yes, she had met with Camilla in the past (Andrew Parker Bowles was her godson). She recognized that Camilla made him happy but she didn't favor the two of them marrying.

 

[Margrethe II]

When the Duchess of Windsor was ill at home (Chateau de Candé, Monts) it was known that the Queen Mother did send her some flowers and attached to them was a private message signed 'In friendship, Elizabeth R'. This was of course after the Dukes death and I do believe it was from one widowed wife to another, recognising the grief and pain of losing ones husband.

I, persoanlly, dont think the Queen Mother ever did get over the abdication as it was something that she never discussed (Even with her inner circle) She also noted that she could'nt hold any real opinion of the Duchess as she only met her once before the crises (The Duke of Grafton is even on record saying this to be the case).

I doubt very much whether she ever got over her husbands death either. 'It doesnt get better, but you get better at it' is what HM Queen Elizabeth said and I think that to be right.

Quietly, I believe the late Queen Mother was always the grieving widow until the day she passed from this life to the next, and the events of 1936 were never forgotten.

"MII"

 

[Zonk]

Again if I recall...the one time they did meet was at Fort Belverdre and the Duchess of Winsdor (then Wallis Simpson) was caught mimicking the Queen Mother (then the Duchess of York). I don't believe she cared for her at all. Which is odd..since she had a friendly relationship with Lady Furness.

And since both the Duke and Duchess of Windsor blamed the HRH slightling on the Queen Mother. I cant say they were friends.