Title for Camilla

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for an intelligent and steadied reply to this "great question".......

The King's wife is The Queen and that's that.
And, if I were her, I'd start calling myself Princess of Wales right now.

Now, I'm no fan of Charles and Camilla, but we're stuck with them and they have positions to uphold in the Realm and so let's all suck it in and start calling them what their correct titles are.

Larry

 

[kimebear]

Understanding The Royal Family | Lifescript.com

If I actually had the time and the money to undertake the kind of research you all seem to be suggesting, I'd do so. Right now, I've got a job that pays jack and a stack of bills and unpaid overdue fines at the library that I'm drowning in, so forgive me if I just go with the nearest source of information I can find on the web instead of camping out at the library or the nearest Barnes & Noble.

I'm sorry you came across such an article. The liberties it takes with actual fact are epic. Besides the inaccurate portrayal of Prince Phillip being titled as His Majesty, I'm going to have to call BS on the idea of Diana as a cocktail waitress.

If that had been accurate, the whole conversation of what Camilla's title will be would be moot. The BRF surely never would have allowed their son to marry a cocktail waitress, Lady or not, so there would be no marriages, no affairs and no hostility.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Understanding The Royal Family | Lifescript.com

If I actually had the time and the money to undertake the kind of research you all seem to be suggesting, I'd do so. Right now, I've got a job that pays jack and a stack of bills and unpaid overdue fines at the library that I'm drowning in, so forgive me if I just go with the nearest source of information I can find on the web instead of camping out at the library or the nearest Barnes & Noble.

I have read the site (thank you for providing the link - a very easy thing to do and probably easier and quicker than copying and pasting the paragraph).

Even the comments at the end of the article point out the the 'His Majesty' title for Philip is 'incorrect and lazy'.

Further online research would have very quickly shown you that this is NOT the case. A wife of a King is always a Queen but the husband of a Queen Consort is rarely a King, unless a King in his own right e.g. Philip II of Spain and William III (whose place in the order of succession in his own right was either immediately after his sister-in-law Anne or after her children all of whom kept dying.)

Getting defensive about being asked for sources will make your time here unhappy but if you have sources, or links, it makes things easier. Please understand that many people here have been studying and following the royals for more years than they (or I) am prepared to admit and thus really do know what they are talking about. If you want to learn and enjoy the conversations here you will need to realise that sometimes people will challenge you for a source.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Now, I'm no fan of Charles and Camilla, but we're stuck with them and they have positions to uphold in the Realm and so let's all suck it in and start calling them what their correct titles are.

Larry

Hi Larry,
I respect your desire to call Camilla by her senior title. However, personally, I like to call people by what they say they wish to be called. From whatever influence it arose, Camilla's officially acknowledged preference is to be called by her secondary title, so that is what I choose to call her. Until she or the CH staff issue another statement suggesting she wants to be called HRH The Princess of Wales, I will call her the Duchess, of Cornwall, and Rothesay.
Ashley
P.S. It is a true pleasure to "meet" you.

 

[lucien]

Dearest Charles and Camilla:

Charles & Camilla

courtesy Royalblog.

 

[jcbcode99]

Understanding The Royal Family | Lifescript.com

If I actually had the time and the money to undertake the kind of research you all seem to be suggesting, I'd do so. Right now, I've got a job that pays jack and a stack of bills and unpaid overdue fines at the library that I'm drowning in, so forgive me if I just go with the nearest source of information I can find on the web instead of camping out at the library or the nearest Barnes & Noble.

It is hard to seperate all the information out there sometimes, isn't it? The page you presented was actually quite interesting, but not necessarily correct and that's perfectly fine I think that one of our side missions here at TRF is to find incorrect articles/webpages, etc... and make sure that everyone who loves the Royals and their history as much as we do has accurate information. So, I thank you for finding us another one and beginning a lively discussion . Titles really and truly are a fascinating topic!

 

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi CasiraghiTrio,

Dear Ashley -
Yes, I agree with you that we should all call Camilla by whatever title she approves....
But, my wish is that she, herself, or the Royal Household would want her to be called by her 'senior title'...
It just doesn't "look right" to me that he is 'Prince of Wales' and she is 'Duchess of Cornwall' - - it all appears so very morganatic!!!
And, we are told that morganatic doesn't exist in British law....

I'd have a lot more respect for her and him if they just came out and announced that she would now be called The Princess of Wales. And, the 'Diana camp' be damned!!
Or better still - - have The Queen announce it....

Just my humble opinion!!

Larry

 

[sirhon11234]

IMO she should continue to be called HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and then Her Majesty The Queen Consort.
The style of DOC is associated with her and not with the late Princess.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Hi CasiraghiTrio,

Dear Ashley -
Yes, I agree with you that we should all call Camilla by whatever title she approves....
But, my wish is that she, herself, or the Royal Household would want her to be called by her 'senior title'...
It just doesn't "look right" to me that he is 'Prince of Wales' and she is 'Duchess of Cornwall' - - it all appears so very morganatic!!!
And, we are told that morganatic doesn't exist in British law....

I'd have a lot more respect for her and him if they just came out and announced that she would now be called The Princess of Wales. And, the 'Diana camp' be damned!!
Or better still - - have The Queen announce it....

Just my humble opinion!!

Larry

Larry,
I agree with you that it does not look right! I just feel we should accept it. because it is her officially endorsed choice, and the only kind of personal choice we could know from her.I wish, like you, that it was different. But I want to be supportive and accepting. It's better than resisting something one can't change. It's outside myself, therefore it's beyond my ability to change. The only way to "change the world" is to change myself and how I act and react with the world.

Your opinion might be humble, but it is still valuable.

Ashley

 

[branchg]

There really was no choice in Camilla being styled by her husband's dukedom, rather than reflecting the Principality of Wales. Diana died only a year after the divorce and she was The Princess of Wales for 15 years. Being the mother of Princes William and Harry, it would have been insensitive to her memory for Camilla to assume Diana's former style upon marriage, even though she was entitled to do so.

Being styled as HRH The Princess Consort is another matter altogether. That would create a morganatic marriage for The King whereas in 1936 it was already made clear such a thing was not possible for The Sovereign. Camilla would be HM The Queen automatically and Parliament would have to take it away to be known by a lesser style and rank than her husband.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

The Duchy of Cornwall was the first title for Charles anyway. And maybe Camilla likes it best. After all, the Duchy is where the money is at. "Show me the money!"

 

[Jo of Palatine]

The Duchy of Cornwall was the first title for Charles anyway. And maybe Camilla likes it best. After all, the Duchy is where the money is at. "

As you can see here, the very first title for Charles probably was His Royal Highness Prince Charles, Earl of Merioneth.

Letters Patent 22 October 1948

In the letters patent his father is referred to as HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and his mother HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh. It doesn't mention any other title for the children of said marriage than Royal Highness and the prefix prince/princess. Thus Charles surely was known by his father's secondary title, as I don't think "Duke of Edinburgh" was a Royal Dukedom such as "York", like the ones given to a son of the souverain. If so, Chrles would have been HRH prince Charles of Edinburgh?

The letters patent says: " in addition to any other appellations and titles of honour which may belong to them hereafter", so doesn't clarify this question.

The letters patent of 21. Nov. 1947 was about "granting unto Lieutenant H.R.H. Sir Philip Mountbatten, K.G., R.N. and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten the dignities of Baron Greenwich in the County of London, Earl of Merioneth and Duke of Edinburgh." In other documents the king made it clear that he didn't want to create Philip a Prince of the Uk, so I guess he was not a Royal duke like his son of York, but a Royal Highness with a peerage of duke. Thus his heir would hold his secondary title as a courtesy title in addition the the HRH prince Charles.

 

[Jacknch]

I've been thinking about all this and thought of some questions:
Has anyone wondered what might have happened with Camilla's title if Princess Diana was still alive?
If Diana had remarried, say to someone with a noble title like Prince of Florence and she then became Princess of Florence and dropped the association with Wales, would people have minded if Camilla was called Princess of Wales instead?
What if Charles had ditched Camilla and married someone else - would we be happy for that person to be known as Princess of Wales?
What would people think if within say the next two years Charles becomes king, William becomes Prince of Wales and marries Kate Middleton and she then becomes Princess of Wales - will people forever associate the Princess of Wales title with Diana?

 

[muriel]

I thnk this is a really interesting point. In my view, this is about personal associations with titles. Diana was the first person to hold that title for c80 years, so for most of us, the title is most closely identified with her. It is really for this reason it would have been difficult for any second wife of Charles' to use that title.

I think it is less of an issue when it comes to the following generation, as people are more willing to accept it. The probem is that William's wife will have to contend with constant comparisons with Diana, irrespective of what her title is - and that just goes with the territory.

As regards Diana having potentially remarried and gotten another title, I think in peoples minds she would ahve still been Princess Di.

 

[muriel]

Being the mother of Princes William and Harry, it would have been insensitive to her memory for Camilla to assume Diana's former style upon marriage, even though she was entitled to do so.

As I have said in the previous post, my view is that most people associated the title of Princess of Wales with Diana, and that was probably one of the biggest stumbling blocks. I am sure CH wanted to avoid a situation where the press would try and suggest that Camilla was trying to take Diana's place.

Being styled as HRH The Princess Consort is another matter altogether. That would create a morganatic marriage for The King whereas in 1936 it was already made clear such a thing was not possible for The Sovereign. Camilla would be HM The Queen automatically and Parliament would have to take it away to be known by a lesser style and rank than her husband.

Fully agree. Even though there are potentially relatively simple ways around it, I just don't believe the wife of the King should be anything other than Queen. That apart, I don't believe that Camilla is "damaged goods" and unsuitable to be Queen, so I guess Charles and his crew just have to manage their way out of the issue of Princess Consort, and ensure that Camilla is not only called Queen but is also crowned so, just as his grandmother was. I am sure public opinion will fall into line in time.

 

[Skydragon]

After all, the Duchy is where the money is at. "Show me the money!"

Meow!

Has anyone wondered what might have happened with Camilla's title if Princess Diana was still alive?
If Diana had remarried, say to someone with a noble title like Prince of Florence and she then became Princess of Florence and dropped the association with Wales, would people have minded if Camilla was called Princess of Wales instead?
What if Charles had ditched Camilla and married someone else - would we be happy for that person to be known as Princess of Wales?
What would people think if within say the next two years Charles becomes king, William becomes Prince of Wales and marries Kate Middleton and she then becomes Princess of Wales - will people forever associate the Princess of Wales title with Diana?

I don't believe that Diana would ever have remarried and therefore lose the title. The Princess of Wales title was Dianas, purely because of who she married.

If Charles becomes King within the next 2 years or so, IF William marries, then Charles may decide to give William the Prince of Wales title, but there are no guarantees.

It is rather silly if you think about it, nobody wails about the next monarch 'taking the place of' the previous one, nobody will knash their teeth if William is made Prince of Wales, (apart from the Welsh), with a 'but that was Charles title'. So why should there be a problem with the Princess of Wales title, either for Camilla or Williams possible future wife?

 

[Warren]

I think it's a case that those of us who have a sense of dynastic continuity see the Princess of Wales title as part of the 'past, present and future' that the British Monarchy represents, whereas the current public perception is that it's a "once off". Thus that title "belongs" (or belonged) to Diana. There's no logic or rationality to it, it's just the way it is. No doubt when the time comes there will be some who claim that Camilla as Queen is trying to assume (or steal) EIIR's title.

 

[muriel]

There's no logic or rationality to it, it's just the way it is. No doubt when the time comes there will be some who claim that Camilla as Queen is trying to assume (or steal) EIIR's title.

Absolutely!

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I think it's a case that those of us who have a sense of dynastic continuity see the Princess of Wales title as part of the 'past, present and future' that the British Monarchy represents, whereas the current public perception is that it's a "once off". Thus that title "belongs" (or belonged) to Diana. There's no logic or rationality to it, it's just the way it is. No doubt when the time comes there will be some who claim that Camilla as Queen is trying to assume (or steal) EIIR's title.

There's an easy solution to the "Princess of Wales"-title once Charles is king. He could always declare that out of respect for the people of Wales the title of "Prince of Wales" is no longer bestowed on the heir to the ("English") Crown, so William (and wife) will have to make do with being Duke and Duchess of Cornwall/Rothesay.

I personally doubt that anyone would mind the title of "Queen Camilla" due to her husband's mother's title. I think in this case the "normal" British way to deal with that will kick in and thus she simply is "Mrs. Charles the King" = HM The Queen.

 

[muriel]

There's an easy solution to the "Princess of Wales"-title once Charles is king. He could always declare that out of respect for the people of Wales the title of "Prince of Wales" is no longer bestowed on the heir to the ("English") Crown, so William (and wife) will have to make do with being Duke and Duchess of Cornwall/Rothesay.

Why stop using the title of Prince of Wales for the heir to the throne. It s within the gift of the monarch, and it should be continued to be used. This is certainly not something that should be stopped on account of the Diana brigade!

 

[Warren]

The tradition of bestowing the title of Prince of Wales on the heir to the (English) throne began in 1301 with Edward I.
To put it in perspective, Diana carried the title in one form or another for just 17 years.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

The tradition of bestowing the title of Prince of Wales on the heir to the (English) throne began in 1301 with Edward I.
To put it in perspective, Diana carried the title in one form or another for just 17 years.

Yes, but the Welsh resent the use of this title since 1301, as their last Prince of Wales Davvyydd was drawn and quartered after having been relieved of his male organs before the title was bestowed by the successful king of England on his heir.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I hope you don't take me too seriously about the "show me the money" thing,Sky! We don't see eye to eye because we are in very different vibrations, but I certainly meant that comment only in fun!!!!!
I know sometimes people on the TRF can fall into the trap of taking things too seriously so from time to time I try to inject some fun! It's only fun, so no hidden innuendos, I promise!

Meow!
I don't believe that Diana would ever have remarried and therefore lose the title. The Princess of Wales title was Dianas, purely because of who she married.

I believe Diana might have invested her sense of worth in being "The Princess of Wales," and she seemed to think the diminishing of her outward social status would equate the diminishing of her self estimation of her value in the world. It's very sad, but because Diana was chronically insecure, she compensated (so I believe, from my spiritual studies) for that sense of being "stupid" (and other things) by manipulating people and seeking outward signs of self-importance. Doing this made her feel strong, powerful, beautiful, and worthy of love. She was a "bully" literally to "bully" people to love her, to know that she did all this "valuable" work in the world and she was "something"! That is what I believe, anyway. I feel very sad for Diana. She seemed to be deeply misguided in most of her actions.

If Charles becomes King within the next 2 years or so, IF William marries, then Charles may decide to give William the Prince of Wales title, but there are no guarantees.

It is rather silly if you think about it, nobody wails about the next monarch 'taking the place of' the previous one, nobody will knash their teeth if William is made Prince of Wales, (apart from the Welsh), with a 'but that was Charles title'. So why should there be a problem with the Princess of Wales title, either for Camilla or Williams possible future wife?

There is no problem with any of it. But just as there are people in the world unreasonably attached to things (titles, status, achievements, money, power) here you see some people unreasonably attached to Diana's memory. It is easy to attach to things and symbols. Most people attach to something in a strong, even (but not always) unreasonable way. Let them be. Everyone is on a unique journey. Here again I think of respect: respect for people's own evolution. Try to avoid the trap of trying to "make" or convince people to see things as you see it.

I like you, Sky. You're cool.

 

[branchg]

As you can see here, the very first title for Charles probably was His Royal Highness Prince Charles, Earl of Merioneth.

Letters Patent 22 October 1948

In the letters patent his father is referred to as HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and his mother HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh. It doesn't mention any other title for the children of said marriage than Royal Highness and the prefix prince/princess. Thus Charles surely was known by his father's secondary title, as I don't think "Duke of Edinburgh" was a Royal Dukedom such as "York", like the ones given to a son of the souverain. If so, Chrles would have been HRH prince Charles of Edinburgh?

His grandfather's letters patent granted Charles and his siblings the style of Royal Highness and Prince/Princess of the UK, a distinction that took precedence over any courtesy style by birth as the children of a Duke.

He was always and only "HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh" until his mother became Queen. At that point, he was automatically The Duke of Cornwall in England and The Duke of Rothesay in Scotland as the eldest son and heir to the throne. In 1958, The Queen created him Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester.

 

[sirhon11234]

Wasn't Charles crowned Prince of Wales in the late 60s?

 

[kimebear]

He was created Prince of Wales in 1958. His formal investiture as Prince of Wales was held in 1969.

 

[Elspeth]

It is rather silly if you think about it, nobody wails about the next monarch 'taking the place of' the previous one, nobody will knash their teeth if William is made Prince of Wales, (apart from the Welsh)

 

[jcbcode99]

Hi CasiraghiTrio,

Dear Ashley -
Yes, I agree with you that we should all call Camilla by whatever title she approves....
But, my wish is that she, herself, or the Royal Household would want her to be called by her 'senior title'...
It just doesn't "look right" to me that he is 'Prince of Wales' and she is 'Duchess of Cornwall' - - it all appears so very morganatic!!!
And, we are told that morganatic doesn't exist in British law....

I'd have a lot more respect for her and him if they just came out and announced that she would now be called The Princess of Wales. And, the 'Diana camp' be damned!!
Or better still - - have The Queen announce it....

Just my humble opinion!!

Larry

Nicely said

 

[georgiea]

What would people think if within say the next two years Charles becomes king, William becomes Prince of Wales and marries Kate Middleton and she then becomes Princess of Wales - will people forever associate the Princess of Wales title with Diana?

I don't think when or if the titles, Prince and Princess of Wales, are used by Prince William and his wife they will have any problems from the British people that Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall would have.

Prince William's wife will be compared to Diana, the Princess of Wales, but her past is different from the Duchess and the British people will accept the title for her. I only think the title is off limits to the Duchess of Cornwall because of the mistress problem.

I really believe that Camilla with be Queen if the crowning happens a while from now.

 

[scooter]

I don't think when or if the titles, Prince and Princess of Wales, are used by Prince William and his wife they will have any problems from the British people that Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall would have.

Prince William's wife will be compared to Diana, the Princess of Wales, but her past is different from the Duchess and the British people will accept the title for her. I only think the title is off limits to the Duchess of Cornwall because of the mistress problem.

Exactly. ITA^^^