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  #21  
Old 11-12-2008, 09:03 AM
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She will probably be crowned Queen like other women married to the heir of the throne. Charles will not accept that she will continue to be a duchess the day he becomes a King I think. He want her to be crowned Queen with him being crowned King.
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  #22  
Old 11-12-2008, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Laurentienne View Post
She will probably be crowned Queen like other women married to the heir of the throne. Charles will not accept that she will continue to be a duchess the day he becomes a King I think. He want her to be crowned Queen with him being crowned King.
That is certainly a view heldby a lot of people!
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  #23  
Old 11-12-2008, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
There is no doubt that when Charles succeeds to the throne, Camilla will legally be Queen. If Charles takes the view at the time (despite what was said at time of the engagement of C&C) that he would prefer that she be known as Princess Consort, he can issue letters patent to the effect. Legally, she would continue to be Queen but just be referred to as Princess Consort - just like the current arrangement where she is Princess of Wales, but prefers to use one of her lesser titles.

Some might argue of how she might use a lesser title that does not exist. As King, Charles will be font of all honour, and there will be nothing stopping him from creating the title of Princess Consort for her to use.
If you are legally Queen, then that's it you can't hold another title. Yes Charles can issue Letters Patent to create the Princess Consort title, but for Camilla to hold it, she first needs to be stripped of the Queen title. That requires legislation from parliament. Camilla can't be legally Queen and hold another title that's she's known by. Currently Camilla uses a title that exists and is legal.

The wording from Clarence House had 'wriggle room' "it is intended that..." At the relevant time it could become 'we intended but legally it's not possible'.
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  #24  
Old 11-12-2008, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Charlotte1 View Post
If you are legally Queen, then that's it you can't hold another title. Yes Charles can issue Letters Patent to create the Princess Consort title, but for Camilla to hold it, she first needs to be stripped of the Queen title. That requires legislation from parliament. Camilla can't be legally Queen and hold another title that's she's known by. Currently Camilla uses a title that exists and is legal.

The wording from Clarence House had 'wriggle room' "it is intended that..." At the relevant time it could become 'we intended but legally it's not possible'.
I am not sure I agree with you, much as I would like to. You may only hold the title of Queen, but query whether you may be styled as something else.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:34 AM
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Well I was never a big fan of the DOC but i do think since she has married the POW. She should be Queen when he becomes King. IMO what does it say of a King that he wife would not be of equal title. It has been a long time since Diana! The POW is happy let them live as one and be KING and QUEEN together ...
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  #26  
Old 11-12-2008, 09:46 AM
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I'm not a big fan of this couple either, but I think it is correct to crown her as the Queen when time comes. It will look odd if she continue to be a duchess.

And I'm sure Charles will not accept it either. He has married her, she is his wife, and since they were allowed to get married in the first place, I think DOC will be crowned a Queen when time comes.

This has nothing to do with Diana at all from my part. She and Charles got divorced after all. And Charles must be able to move on in life, both after the divorse and then the death of Diana.
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  #27  
Old 11-12-2008, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I am not sure I agree with you, much as I would like to. You may only hold the title of Queen, but query whether you may be styled as something else.
The problem is that to create her "Princess Consort", Charles would need to create her a HRH in her own right, just like king George VI. created Mr. Philip Mountbatten HRH The Duke of Edinburgh. For once Charles becomes His Majesty as his wife she can only share his style in the female form but not stick to one formerly held by her husband. Once Charles is His Majesty, she is Her Majesty.

Okay, he could create her HRH The Princess Consort but surely her higher rank through marriage would be used even in this case? Just like when the Suo Jure Countess of Sutherland in 1785 Viscount Trentham (courtesy title of the heir of the Earl Gower), but still used her own title. In 1786 her husband became by courtesy Earl Gower (as heir to the newly created Marquess of Stafford) so she still was known as Countess Sutherland. Only when her husband inherited the Marquessate in 1803, she was know by her husband's title, as it was higher than her own.
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  #28  
Old 11-12-2008, 10:06 AM
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^But she is already an HRH by marriage. I believe that whatever will cause the least embarrassment to the monarchy will happen, and it would be embarrassing to have a situation where the King's wife is not Queen. It would look odd, like Laurentienne said. So I think whatever LPs and everything else that needs to be done will likely be done in due course in order that on coronation day a king and a queen will be crowned. Adjustments are an old story for monarchy. It's all about preservation.
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  #29  
Old 11-12-2008, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by princessistanbul View Post
I hope only Duchess... all time
She's not fit for "Queen" title
I hope that you're wrong. Because it's ridiculous. Can you imagine that someday Britain will be lead by a King and a Duchess?? This is will never happen.

And Why do you think she's not fit for the title. And it's actually not about fit to the title or not. DOC become a Queen, it's the right thing to do!
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  #30  
Old 11-12-2008, 02:00 PM
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Well, she won't be a duchess when Charles is King because William's wife will then be Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay, and the whole Duke of Lancaster thing isn't a real ducal title anyway, so the Queen Consort doesn't get to be Duchess of Lancaster.

But I'm still going back to the scenario where all this is done without Letters Patent or Acts of Parliament, just a simple statement from the Palace that HM The Queen will be known from now on as HRH The Princess Consort. Far as I know, she can call herself something she isn't, as long as there's no intent to defraud. There's been so much playing around with royal styles and titles in recent years that one more anomaly isn't going to kill anyone. She'll still be HM The Queen in her passport, but if Charles announces that she'll be known as the Princess Consort, who's actually going to stand up to him and say, "sorry, Sir, you can't do that"?
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  #31  
Old 11-13-2008, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Well, she won't be a duchess when Charles is King because William's wife will then be Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay, and the whole Duke of Lancaster thing isn't a real ducal title anyway, so the Queen Consort doesn't get to be Duchess of Lancaster.

But I'm still going back to the scenario where all this is done without Letters Patent or Acts of Parliament, just a simple statement from the Palace that HM The Queen will be known from now on as HRH The Princess Consort. Far as I know, she can call herself something she isn't, as long as there's no intent to defraud. There's been so much playing around with royal styles and titles in recent years that one more anomaly isn't going to kill anyone. She'll still be HM The Queen in her passport, but if Charles announces that she'll be known as the Princess Consort, who's actually going to stand up to him and say, "sorry, Sir, you can't do that"?
I think that is quite right and is what is intended. Whilst legally Camilla will become HM Queen Camilla (whether she is crowned beside her husband or not and there is o legal requirement for her to be crowned at the coronation), I can think of no reason - legal or otherwise -why there would be a problem for her to be KNOWN and REFERRED TO as HRH The Princess Consort if that is HER preference. Even if the title doesn't legally exist I can't see why it cannot be used.
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  #32  
Old 11-13-2008, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Well, she won't be a duchess when Charles is King because William's wife will then be Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay, and the whole Duke of Lancaster thing isn't a real ducal title anyway, so the Queen Consort doesn't get to be Duchess of Lancaster.

But I'm still going back to the scenario where all this is done without Letters Patent or Acts of Parliament, just a simple statement from the Palace that HM The Queen will be known from now on as HRH The Princess Consort. Far as I know, she can call herself something she isn't, as long as there's no intent to defraud. There's been so much playing around with royal styles and titles in recent years that one more anomaly isn't going to kill anyone. She'll still be HM The Queen in her passport, but if Charles announces that she'll be known as the Princess Consort, who's actually going to stand up to him and say, "sorry, Sir, you can't do that"?
The question is if Charles actually wants to announce that she'll be known as HRH The Princess Consort. I personally can't see him as doing that - it would be a personal defeat if he is not able to accord his legal wife her legal title. Of course when this "it is intended..." was published, they did it for the sake of the marriage and the right of Camilla to be known as HRH but I seriously doubt it was Charles' idea and that he whole-heartedly supported it. It was a means to an end and nothing more.

It is no secret that what Charles and the people of his office at St. James' and what the queen and her people of her office at BP think is most of the time not the same. Once Charles' is king, only his opinion counts and the guys at BP are out of business. I doubt that it is in the interest of the government to insist on a change in tradition, Charles won't want that either, so it will just be the media and we have no idea how the media will react in the direct aftermath of HM's death.
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  #33  
Old 11-13-2008, 07:56 AM
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Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?
Today, as a member of the European Union, Britain would not be able to do this as it discriminated against Wallis because of her marital status (Divorcee).
This was why C&C were able to have a Registry Office wedding. Their rights are the same as any other subject & european citizen. Charles could not be denied a civil wedding because of his birth status.
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  #34  
Old 11-13-2008, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
The question is if Charles actually wants to announce that she'll be known as HRH The Princess Consort. I personally can't see him as doing that - it would be a personal defeat if he is not able to accord his legal wife her legal title. Of course when this "it is intended..." was published, they did it for the sake of the marriage and the right of Camilla to be known as HRH but I seriously doubt it was Charles' idea and that he whole-heartedly supported it. It was a means to an end and nothing more.

It is no secret that what Charles and the people of his office at St. James' and what the queen and her people of her office at BP think is most of the time not the same. Once Charles' is king, only his opinion counts and the guys at BP are out of business. I doubt that it is in the interest of the government to insist on a change in tradition, Charles won't want that either, so it will just be the media and we have no idea how the media will react in the direct aftermath of HM's death.
I'm not sure it's only Charles's choice. While this isn't a popularity contest and results of polls aren't necessarily all that relevant, the royal family has hopefully learned a few lessons about the dangers of trying to do major things that are really unpopular. If the government and the senior royal advisors really believe that forcing the issue of Camilla being known as HM the Queen Consort (and being crowned and whatever) will do serious damage to the institution of the monarchy, Charles might not have much choice. This is the obstacle that Edward VIII ran into - he was concerned about what he wanted when he was King, whereas the government and the civil servants were more concerned with preserving the institution of monarchy and the position of King in general; the identity of the person in the position was a lot less important to them than the stability of the institution itself.
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  #35  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I'm not sure it's only Charles's choice. While this isn't a popularity contest and results of polls aren't necessarily all that relevant, the royal family has hopefully learned a few lessons about the dangers of trying to do major things that are really unpopular. If the government and the senior royal advisors really believe that forcing the issue of Camilla being known as HM the Queen Consort (and being crowned and whatever) will do serious damage to the institution of the monarchy, Charles might not have much choice. This is the obstacle that Edward VIII ran into - he was concerned about what he wanted when he was King, whereas the government and the civil servants were more concerned with preserving the institution of monarchy and the position of King in general; the identity of the person in the position was a lot less important to them than the stability of the institution itself.
While you might not feel that polls or public opinion are relevant, I think to ignore this week's poll about the approval rating of the idea of Camilla being Queen is 17%, down 10 points in the last year, would be very dangerous to the future of the monarchy. For Charles to arrogantly force upon the British people someone who has an approval rating far lower than GWB, is risking a lot. They might well say leave and take her with you.
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  #36  
Old 11-13-2008, 11:58 PM
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I think that it is ridiculous to think that Camilla will be anything less than Queen--regardless of that statement of pacification issued by the Palace when Charles and Camilla were married. The Monarchy is an institution that holds dear long standing traditions and honors. It is unimaginable to think that, due to public opinion over Diana's never to be assumed role of Queen, that Camilla should have to resort to the use of a leser title. If this is to be intended, that she will be the Princess Consort (a title which does not suit her maturity, in my opinion) then someone better get some paperwork ready because it will be next to impossible to demote her once QEII passes. Incidentally, if this were the true intention, then I think that a Letters Patent would have been passed before now that stated that Camilla would never receive the title of Queen and would be the Princess Consort---but such legislation has not been seen. And, Camilla is wearing the jewels of former Queens (Queen Mary, and QEQM) in official capacities. It seems to me that the lack of information indicates that she will be Queen.
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  #37  
Old 11-14-2008, 01:35 AM
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I wonder if this whole lesser-title business is because of the irregular marriage issue. They weren't married in church, which is an unusual thing for the heir to the throne. Perhaps some sort of deal was worked out behind the scenes. Too bad I likely won't be around when the time comes for the correspondence about the wedding negotiations are available.
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  #38  
Old 11-14-2008, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
While you might not feel that polls or public opinion are relevant, I think to ignore this week's poll about the approval rating of the idea of Camilla being Queen is 17%, down 10 points in the last year, would be very dangerous to the future of the monarchy. For Charles to arrogantly force upon the British people someone who has an approval rating far lower than GWB, is risking a lot. They might well say leave and take her with you.
If polls were 100% correct 100% of the time, the UK would no longer be members of the EU. When the time comes, I believe the majority of the British people will be pleased to see Charles as King, with Camilla as Queen Consort at his side!

What George Bush and his approval rating has to do with anything I'm not sure, monarchy is not quite the same as politics, even less so than American politics.
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  #39  
Old 11-14-2008, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I wonder if this whole lesser-title business is because of the irregular marriage issue. They weren't married in church, which is an unusual thing for the heir to the throne. Perhaps some sort of deal was worked out behind the scenes. Too bad I likely won't be around when the time comes for the correspondence about the wedding negotiations are available.
The mess about the title was I believe an attempt to calm the apparent hysteria of the Diana fans who were threatening demonstrations by 1000's and of course the not very Christian Christians. Divorce didn't happen, it was unthinkable especially for Royal couples.

Times change and the monarchy has attempted to change with it.
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  #40  
Old 11-14-2008, 09:17 AM
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The mess about the title was I believe an attempt to calm the apparent hysteria of the Diana fans who were threatening demonstrations by 1000's and of course the not very Christian Christians. Divorce didn't happen, it was unthinkable especially for Royal couples.

Times change and the monarchy has attempted to change with it.
I believe you are right in your analysis. The hysteria was pretty wild. I wouldn't mind betting that with the objective distance of 10 years after the death of Diana, not a few, really quite ordinary decent people, are aghast and more than a little ashamed of their behaviour back then.

As to the polls? As you have already noted, it is more than numbers. Unless it is carried out by a scrupulously credible "independent" specialist agency, the way questions are couched dictate the kind of response required. We are all then manipulated by the "Poll" results.

As for the not very Christain Christians? I believe the Archbishop of Canterbury has a lot to answer for. In miriad ways the CofE has moved with the times, but, in this very normal instance, he took an express train back to 1935.

I am not sure about divorce in Great Britain but here in my country the civil laws regarding divorce for the man in the street were greatly liberalised with WWII. Most churches took a mere 30-40 years to "get with the programme".
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