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  #1  
Old 01-30-2008, 12:08 PM
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Title for Camilla - Part 3

Welcome to part 3 of the ongoing discussion about the title Camilla will hold if and when Charles becomes King.

Part 2 can be found here.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:46 PM
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So, let me see if I understand this. Regardless of everything that has occurred, when Charles becomes King, Camilla is automatically Queen--she cannot hold a lesser style because is Queen, according to Baldwin when Edward wanted to marry Wallis and give her the style of HRH The Duchess of Lancaster. That wouldn't work because the wife of the sovereign automatically becomes the Queen, correct?
So, one route is to create a law before Charles ascends the throne that would make Camilla HRH The Princess Consort upon his ascension; that way there is no confusion and it is settled in such a way that she is never Queen and thusly, never loses the title of Queen.
Let's say she is created HRH The Princess Consort. If Charles predeceases Camilla, what would she then be known as? She wouldn't be the Dowager Princess Consort because William's wife would be Queen--would Camilla continue to be the Princess Consort? What would her ranking be? A Dowager Queen still holds a great deal of rank--would we be looking at yet another title change for Camilla? Why should she have to lose title rank because Charles dies? How would that work? That's an issue that should be addressed.
It is much easier to just let her be Queen and Dowager Queen. That is how it has been done. Why change it now? I'm already confused trying to figure out the options. Perhaps someone could list the options so we can have a reference point?
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  #3  
Old 01-30-2008, 12:52 PM
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I assume they might do what they did for the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester and let her be known as Princess Camilla. Princess Alice was never a princess in her own right, but that's how she was styled after her husband died and her daughter-in-law became Duchess of Gloucester.

Really, between the morganatic arrangement where the Duchess of Windsor wasn't an HRH even though the Duke was and even though morganatic marriage doesn't exist in British law, the Princess Alice precedent, and then Lady Louise rather than HRH Princess Louise, the royal family are rather giving the impression that if need be, they'll just make it up as they go along if that's what it takes to get to where they need to get.

Which I'm sure is part of the confusion about whether they can or can't make the Princess Consort thing stick.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:05 PM
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Well I certainly wouldn't call her anything else but Your Majesty. I think alot of people would also feel out of place discriminating her because of a past spouse.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:54 PM
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Well said, BeatrixFan! I truly dislike all this talk because it seeks to relegate Camilla to a secondary status--and I do not think that is fair. Frankly, looking at how it is all set up, she should be Queen. All this talk and supposition of creating a new law to prevent that from occuring is really shameful and I do hope that the UK does not allow that type of popular interference to set a precedence of just changing the rules to suit the emotions of a few. Hopefully, in the next year or so we will see a increase in the amount of support for Queen Camilla rather than Princess Consort Camilla. Personally, I do not think the title of Princess Consort suits Camilla--she is a distinguished, older lady--Duchess and then Queen suit her much better.
Incidentally, and off topic a bit, but will Mette-Marit's past prevent her from becoming Queen or will she have to settle for a lesser title? Probably not. I realize the circumstances are different, but theory is similar. Does someone with a "past" have a right to be Queen? Does their past and mistakes of their past impune their character?
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:03 PM
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Oh no, Mette-Marit will be Queen. Why? Because the Norwegians are thoroughly sensible and don't pander to the press as the Palace flunkies did in 2005. When Haakon married Mette-Marit, it was clear that she'd be HRH Crown Princess and later HM The Queen of Norway. Not our lot. They should have used Norway as a precedent and we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:15 PM
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I totally and completely agree. Regardless of what her past was, Mette-Marit has been treated with dignity and the respect due to her as the spouse of the Crown Prince.
Not so with Camilla--God forbid she be referred to as The Princess of Wales and God forbid she become Queen Camilla because of Diana. It is insane!
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:21 PM
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It's this allergy culture. "I can't stomach this" and "I can't stomach that" and sadly they get taken as the majority. In the good old days they just choked.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Oh no, Mette-Marit will be Queen. Why? Because the Norwegians are thoroughly sensible and don't pander to the press as the Palace flunkies did in 2005. When Haakon married Mette-Marit, it was clear that she'd be HRH Crown Princess and later HM The Queen of Norway. Not our lot. They should have used Norway as a precedent and we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
The situation was somewhat different, though. Mette-Marit wasn't in the position of being perceived to have been instrumental in breaking up a previous marriage of Prince Haakon, and she wasn't replacing anyone else as his Crown Princess. The situation is somewhat more similar to that of Liliane Baels having to settle for a lesser title as an unpopular second wife of King Leopold, and she didn't even have anything to do with the end of his first marriage.

At the time when the engagement of Charles and Camilla was announced, I'm not sure how well received it would have been if it had been stated that while Camilla would be known as Duchess of Cornwall for the time being, she would be Queen Consort to Charles when he became King. It would have been the courageous thing to do (always assuming that the "Princess Consort" thing wasn't Camilla's idea and the condition upon which she agreed to marry Charles), but it might have had dangerous consequences at the time, when so many people still had raw nerve endings about it.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:45 PM
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But then are these self-righteous morons crowing about what's morally acceptable living a whiter than white life? At the end of the day, we pay for the professional services of the Royal Family, we don't pay to hold a Pop Idol contest on who they're allowed to marry. The problem with the Palace bending to the lunatic fringe is that they've set a precedent of an X Factor monarchy and we all know that can't work. It's not only unfair but it's also deeply hypocritical. I think you're right in that this is more a Princess Liliane situation but when the cake is eaten and the plate is clear we're left with one question; Does Camilla do a good job as a member of the Royal Family? The answer, from even her most vicious critics - yes she does. In that case, there's no reason why the title of Queen should be substituted for the title of Princess Consort. Camilla hasn't done anything wrong, why should she be penalised because a fan club without a brain cell between them somehow think that by treating her as unclean, Diana's going to pop up and start appearing in the papers again. As has been pointed out, Diana was NEVER going to be Queen anyway. After that divorce, the post was open to whoever Charles chose to marry second. He chose Camilla, the jobs hers.
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:33 PM
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I think the royal family, or at least the advisors, might now be reaping the rather awkward harvest of a decision that was made for short-term reasons. I'm sure that at the time, especially remembering people's rather shocked reaction to the notion of a separated Diana being crowned Queen, the idea to sidestep the Queen issue with a Princess Consort title would have been very attractive. But it didn't take long for the media to start asking awkward questions about the constitutionality of the Princess Consort business, which means they didn't really gain a lot in the short term. And now we're still stuck with it, while knowing that it's very unlikely to come about because the practicalities are too complex and there's no real need anyway, so it looks as though the Palace advisors are trying to mislead.

I think, unless Camilla flat refused to marry Charles unless she could get out of being Queen Consort, this may be yet another of those highly dubious decisions made by the royal advisors in the last few years, and yet another one that's going to come back to haunt them.
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Old 01-30-2008, 03:51 PM
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Who's to say she is even interested in the title of Queen. Frankly, I would be more disappointed in her if she was. I would hope that she married for love and not the trappings of royal life.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:09 PM
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It would be reasonable to presume that Duchess Cornwall married Prince Charles for "love [nicely enhanced by] the trappings of royal life" (Empress, 2007). Appetite is known to come with eating.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:21 PM
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Who's to say she is even interested in the title of Queen. Frankly, I would be more disappointed in her if she was. I would hope that she married for love and not the trappings of royal life.
She may not be interested, I'm sure she's not, but I am. It creates a very nasty precedent and I don't like to see someone treated like an untouchable because of hero worship. It's just not cricket.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:20 PM
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Which I'm sure is part of the confusion about whether they can or can't make the Princess Consort thing stick.
If successfull, I think they could. And I don't think it would be very hard.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:29 PM
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But why should they have to?
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:47 PM
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Perhaps it's her preference. If it were, do you think they should make an effort or just tell her that even though she doesn't want to be Queen Camilla, too bad?
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:50 PM
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I'd say that the wife of a King is a Queen and anything less cheapens the institution. Other people might want to sail tradition down the river on a turd but I say if we've got a monarchy then do it properly or not at all. If Camilla doesn't care that's admirable but I do care and I care about her. And if she takes that Consort title then the Diana fanatics have won which doesn't only make me totally sick to my stomach but signals the end of the monarchy once and for all.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:57 PM
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So this is basically a war between the die hard Diana fanatics and the fans of Camilla?
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:03 PM
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No, it's a war between common sense and pandering to the Sun readers.
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