Title for Camilla

[serenissima]

Yes, ma'am...



On the whole, though she went through her paces to get there, I think. Her Majesty hasn't always been the greatest at reading public opinion and has at times been let down by those employed to avoid any unfortunate press.

And it still happens, as we have seen with Clarence House. Last August comes to mind. I think it lax and expect better for the royal family.

That is true. The Queen herself seemed to become aware of that, too, when Diana died. Having said that, what I think about that incident was because she understood that her people whould not like too much of glamour around her family etc, she naturally thought that it was not her place to do anything about the death of Diana. Whereas people were so attached to her because of her charitable works etc and knew what had happened to her because of the Prince of Wales, people felt that the Queen should come out and say something about the death of Diana which to the Queen's mind was not how things were done when she was young etc.

However, the Queen seems to just get on with things, finding her little pleasure in her horses, dogs, a bit of TVs, doing the cross-words etc etc which is the same in the life of the Princess Royal. Whereas other people do all what the rich and famous such as "Posh and Beck" would do. I suppose, going back to the theme of this thread, Camilla and the Prince of Wales are much quieter in this sort of stuff but they have other motives re: the fox hunting and what-not and talk about the preservation of the English rural life but actually they don't seem to be interested in the things that matter most to many less affluent people who live in countrysides. When all those small village post offices are facing the closure and those old pensioners are think worried about how to get their pensions out etc, they seem to focus on this fox-hunting and the organic farming. Yes, I do support the organic farming but at the same time, we all who are able to afford the organically grown vegetables should think about how those people who are not as fortunate as us could access to such good things as the organic vegetables etc.

Anyway, going back to Camilla, people who have met her do tell me that she comes across as such a nice person whereas not many people feel the same about the Prince of Wales. I have never met her, really, apart from seeing her around at the royal meetings at Ascot etc, but she may be really just feeling, 'Oh, I so wish I didn't have to be brought to all this attention". She would have been much happier as a nice county lady doing her own little things. However, she was in love with the Prince of Wales and the Prince of Wales seems to be the sort of person who has to have his way always that she was dragged into this mess.

Again, going back to her title, most people will feel comfortable if the palace authority sticks to what they said innitially when they were getting married. Or, alternatively, give her a title of her own for life like that Hong Kong born lady in Denmark has got. People say about "traditions" but their wedding blessing was not a part of that family nor our country's tradition but it was invented to work around that couple's convenience/needs. Many things that we now call the "traditions" were born in this way, I am sure, and quite often they were invented for the practical reasons. Take an altar rails in the sanctuary of a church. It was not invented to separate a holier place from where people were gathering but it was invented so that the cattles etc that were brought into the nave wouldn't wee in the sanctuary where the Eucharist was celebrated etc. (in those days, there were no pews inside and quite often villagers etc used to bring their animals into their church for they were allowed to sell them if it was raining or what outside.)

Because this Camilla and the Prince of Wales' relationship is a bit different from the conventional situation (though it's not the first one, I am sure), I do feel, for the sake of Camilla as well, that it will be better if she didn't become HM the Queen.

 

[serenissima]

No, of course not. It's very difficult to get permission to change your name and certainly not to one who depicts a higher social status. But when one of Lady Duoro's cousins married a "commoner" they decided to keep "Prinz/essin von Preussen" as the family name, thus her children and her husband share that name now. Or if you have Prinzessin in your name and have an illegitimate child, this child has the same name as you: Prinzessin von...

Oh, I see. You know a lot of this sort of thing. However, there are no "commoners" in Germany, are there ? My friends in Germany always say that they are German nationals but I am a Queen's subject.

 

[serenissima]

I don't think Austria follows that rule. But then it's a completely different country with own rules and own protocoll. If the Germans from Czech or Slowakia were nobles they can of course keep that part of their names. Normally ex-reigning houses keep their old titles and may even apply for a name change permission if an elder, more senior relative dies and they inherit a higher title. Eg the Margrave of Meissen who is Head of the ex-Royal House of Saxony. Or if an herediary prince inherits from his father, the Fuerst. The Saxe-Coburg-Gotha use the name of Prinz/essin von Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha, Herzog/in zu Sachsen. AFAIK nobody uses the name of Wettin as family name.

Oh, I see. Maybe, Austrian people are not that bothered about these titles as much as the aristocratic German people are. However, some of the members of the Habsburg family have a lot to do with Bavaria and don't they live there now ? Surely they must have some titles that are to do with Bavaria or its surrounding areas. Are they Germans by nationality or what are they now ?

 

[Madame Royale]

.

Again, going back to her title, most people will feel comfortable if the palace authority sticks to what they said innitially when they were getting married. Or, alternatively, give her a title of her own for life like that Hong Kong born lady in Denmark has got. People say about "traditions" but their wedding blessing was not a part of that family nor our country's tradition but it was invented to work around that couple's convenience/needs. Many things that we now call the "traditions" were born in this way, I am sure, and quite often they were invented for the practical reasons. Take an altar rails in the sanctuary of a church. It was not invented to separate a holier place from where people were gathering but it was invented so that the cattles etc that were brought into the nave wouldn't wee in the sanctuary where the Eucharist was celebrated etc. (in those days, there were no pews inside and quite often villagers etc used to bring their animals into their church for they were allowed to sell them if it was raining or what outside.)

Because this Camilla and the Prince of Wales' relationship is a bit different from the conventional situation (though it's not the first one, I am sure), I do feel, for the sake of Camilla as well, that it will be better if she didn't become HM the Queen.

The Hong Kong born lady is HE Alexandra, Countess of Frederiksborg..hehe.

You would be the first participant in this discussion, apart from myself, who has openly supported the alternative I think. And while my reasons are my own, I'm certain much of the general public are under the impression that Princess Consort is what she'll become, even though it's only 'intended'. Providing the alternative and encouraging us to believe it has the support of Clarence House (the fact it's still up on the Prince of Wales Official website) is perhaps not the wisest thing to have done if there's been little, to no real merit in it.

It was a big call to make, and so early in the piece.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I suppose, going back to the theme of this thread, Camilla and the Prince of Wales are much quieter in this sort of stuff but they have other motives re: the fox hunting and what-not and talk about the preservation of the English rural life but actually they don't seem to be interested in the things that matter most to many less affluent people who live in countrysides. When all those small village post offices are facing the closure and those old pensioners are think worried about how to get their pensions out etc, they seem to focus on this fox-hunting and the organic farming. Yes, I do support the organic farming but at the same time, we all who are able to afford the organically grown vegetables should think about how those people who are not as fortunate as us could access to such good things as the organic vegetables etc.

Please, before saying such things check the Prince of Wales-thread where you can find a lot of things the prince and his wife actively do to help small village businesses survive (pubs and shops, am not sure about post offices but seem to recall there was something), they have gotten involved in a case where the NHS wants to close a bungalow-site which houses disabled people, they help farmers of small farms to market their products at prices which allow them to survive even though their farms are not on the richest soil and are too small to make big bucks out of them.

Of course they can't do anything about the pricing for food, oil etc. that is a political question, but they are constantly revising new projects to keep life going for underprivilege people and especially people living in the countryside without greater mobility. It is constantly reported that people wrote to them and received either encouragement or active help. Plus the prince is constantly thinking up ideas how to earn more money for his charities and is very successful in this, while his wife is being laughed about by the media because she tries to economise with her wardrobe - they call it mockingly recycling.... as if it was wrong to wear good clothes more than once!

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Or, alternatively, give her a title of her own for life like that Hong Kong born lady in Denmark has got.

Alexandra Countess of Fredericksborg née Manley got the title of countess because she divorced prince Joachim and remarried. As long as she was the prince's legal wife, she would have been queen had something happened to the Crown Prince and his son. As long as she didn't remarry, she was HH princess Alexandra of Denmark after the divorce.

We are talking here what should be happening to Camilla when Charles ascedes the throne and she is still his legally his wife. We know already how the RF deal with ex-wifes on divorce. So the ex-princess of Denmark is not a suitable comparison to the wife of The Prince of Wales.

 

[serenissima]

Please, before saying such things check the Prince of Wales-thread where you can find a lot of things the prince and his wife actively do to help small village businesses survive (pubs and shops, am not sure about post offices but seem to recall there was something), they have gotten involved in a case where the NHS wants to close a bungalow-site which houses disabled people, they help farmers of small farms to market their products at prices which allow them to survive even though their farms are not on the richest soil and are too small to make big bucks out of them.

Of course they can't do anything about the pricing for food, oil etc. that is a political question, but they are constantly revising new projects to keep life going for underprivilege people and especially people living in the countryside without greater mobility. It is constantly reported that people wrote to them and received either encouragement or active help. Plus the prince is constantly thinking up ideas how to earn more money for his charities and is very successful in this, while his wife is being laughed about by the media because she tries to economise with her wardrobe - they call it mockingly recycling.... as if it was wrong to wear good clothes more than once!

Yes, the Prince's Trust is a very good thing and his Duchy Originals things are lovely though many people may say they are far too expensive. I like their hams and sausages etc.

Having said that, since now we know what he was doing behind the scene writing to the certain MPs and what-not in order to pursue his own interests/cause etc, one becomes very suspicious of him. Even some old people whom I visit in those homes who were very fond of the Prince "Charles" (as they call him) before now feel as though they are let down by him.

It is good that people receive those letters from the prince et al but when they attend those numerous functions and events etc, they always write back to the organisers et al and admire their hard work etc. Even some people get OBE and things like that. I know few people who are decorated in this way but some of them are not that hard working according their members that they call such OBEs as "Other Buggers' Effort".

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Oh, I see. Maybe, Austrian people are not that bothered about these titles as much as the aristocratic German people are. However, some of the members of the Habsburg family have a lot to do with Bavaria and don't they live there now ? Surely they must have some titles that are to do with Bavaria or its surrounding areas. Are they Germans by nationality or what are they now ?

I don't think you can say that about the people of a country when we are dealing with political reasons of the treatment of the nobility after WWI. I have no doubt that the Austrians know exactly who this widowed lady with the name Esterhazy is who lives at Schloss Esterhazy in Eisenstadt/Austria....And of course the people working for this lady call her "Fuerstin" (princess) when they meet her, even though she is plain Mrs. Esterhazy according to Austrian law.

As for the Habsburg-Lothringen: maybe you just want to check out the threads relating to this family and the other German-Austrian families on the Non-reigning families-forums here. Lots of really interesting information and quite informative links provided there.

 

[serenissima]

The Hong Kong born lady is HE Alexandra, Countess of Frederiksborg.

Oh, I see. Well, this alternative title for herself was talked about here before they got married then. Then, we were told that she was going to style herself as the Duchess of Cornwall than the Princess of Wales because of those reasons that we know.

Obviously, as you can see, I am not at all that comfortable with this Camilla becoming HM the Queen in due course and will feel somehow right if they did stick to the first idea of the Princess Consort thing or call her something like the Duchess of Highgrove or the Princess of London or whatever. Or maybe, the Duchess of Tasmania, how about that ?

It may be just fun for those people who are not British or the peoples of the Commomwealth to chat about this matter but we have to stick to it once she became our queen and I do find it really uncomfortable to think that she is my queen, if you know what I mean.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Having said that, since now we know what he was doing behind the scene writing to the certain MPs and what-not in order to pursue his own interests/cause etc, one becomes very suspicious of him. Even some old people whom I visit in those homes who were very fond of the Prince "Charles" (as they call him) before now feel as though they are let down by him.

It is good that people receive those letters from the prince et al but when they attend those numerous functions and events etc, they always write back to the organisers et al and admire their hard work etc. Even some people get OBE and things like that. I know few people who are decorated in this way but some of them are not that hard working according their members that they call such OBEs as "Other Buggers' Effort".

You should really try to make a difference between things that the government does (or does not) and what the prince does (or does not).. What Charles is doing at the moment is trying to influence politicians in order to help causes he sees as necessary for the country. He can't do it openly because it's a constitutional monarchy in Britain and it's the politicians who decide, the men and women given their office by the people of Britain through their votes. Charles has nothing to decide and once he is king, he can't even write open letters to politicians, he can only "advise" the prime minister then. So what can he do? He is chained by the law but still tries to make a difference.

Ah, and the people receiving honours are not selected by the Royal family, but by the politicians and the government. So put the blame for those OBE's to them.

But maybe we should switch that discussion to the Charles & Camilla-opinion-thread? Mods? Thank you in advance.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Oh, I see. You know a lot of this sort of thing. However, there are no "commoners" in Germany, are there ? My friends in Germany always say that they are German nationals but I am a Queen's subject.

That's why I highlighted the "commoner" - Germany of todays makes no difference but I bet the Preussen-family does. And I don't think the senior family members like it that one daughter went against tradition and took advantage of the German laws to keep the prestigious "Prinzessin von Preussen"-name for her daughters, even though she had married a plain Mr.

 

[Madame Royale]

Obviously, as you can see, I am not at all that comfortable with this Camilla becoming HM the Queen in due course and will feel somehow right if they did stick to the first idea of the Princess Consort thing or call her something like the Duchess of Highgrove or the Princess of London or whatever. Or maybe, the Duchess of Tasmania, how about that ?

It may be just fun for those people who are not British or the peoples of the Commomwealth to chat about this matter but we have to stick to it once she became our queen and I do find it really uncomfortable to think that she is my queen, if you know what I mean.

Duchess of Tasmania?.lol. You really don't warm to her do you. I don't know a single person who would happily assume that title...

I think she's most probably a fine lady with a kind nature and great sense of humour, though HRH just doesn't embody the image of Majesty for me.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I think she's most probably a fine lady with a kind nature and great sense of humour, though HRH just doesn't embody the image of Majesty for me.

But if she did, wouldn't people assume she appeared to be "above her station" or even tried to outrank the queen? I think in due course we will see that king Charles (George VII.) and queen Camilla will be just a picture perfect Royal couple as George VI. and queen Elizabeth were.

 

[jcbcode99]

I'm sure a lot of people didn't imagine Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon as Her Majesty, either. She was born a commoner, was a little plump, somewhat dowdy, and coming behind Queens Mary and Alexandra she didn't have their regal and majestic style--I believe she was desribed once as as a sweet, chattering little thing. However, she was quite beloved. I realize the circumstances are different here for multiple reasons, but getting back to creating Camilla a Princess in her own right--that could be interesting--but like some think that HM doesn't suit her, I don't think that Princess suits her very well either.

 

[Warren]

I have removed a post relating to Empress Zita. Now that we are back on track discussing Camilla's title could we please try to keep further discussion of German, Austrian, Slovak etc titles out of the thread please.

thanks

 

[Madame Royale]

But if she did, wouldn't people assume she appeared to be "above her station" or even tried to outrank the queen? I think in due course we will see that king Charles (George VII.) and queen Camilla will be just a picture perfect Royal couple as George VI. and queen Elizabeth were.

No no, I think we're lost in translation.

What I meant was that I don't think Camilla will embody the image of Majesty, after her husbands succession. I just don't see a 'Queen' in her. And I say that with not the slightest bit malice intended because it really is nothing negative about her, which has established my opinion.

She will make a great consort, but it remains my great hope that she be the Princess Consort...

 

[love_cc]

I still find the idea of Princess Consort is hard to accept. As long as Camilla remains as Prince Charles's lawful wife, no doubt Camilla has every right to be called Queen Camilla under any circumstances. I am not against the idea of creating Camilla into a Princess herself but definitely not Princess consort. This word causes my feeling of unequal marriage as well as unrecognised position of the second wife.

 

[Skydragon]

But if she did, wouldn't people assume she appeared to be "above her station" or even tried to outrank the queen? I think in due course we will see that king Charles (George VII.) and queen Camilla will be just a picture perfect Royal couple as George VI. and queen Elizabeth were.

Of course they would and people would be on here asking 'how dare she'. To me, she acts exactly how I would wish the female members to act, with discretion and silence with regard to the press.

 

[serenissima]

I am sure, as I have been told so by some people who have met her, Camilla is a nice enough lady but not that great either. However, people who do want this sport called fox hunting to continue find her and her husband their Salvatori Mundi, and she is already HM the Queen to them, I am sure.

How about "Foxy Lady" for her as her new title ?

 

[sirhon11234]

How about "Foxy Lady" for her as her new title ?

No.

I guess we all will find out which title she will use in time.

 

[Roslyn]

It has occurred to me that maybe Camilla really doesn't want to be Queen, and would prefer to be Princess Consort. She may see herself having more freedom with the lesser title and it might be her idea.

Just a thought.

 

[TheTruth]

And you're probably right Roslyn. I always thought Charles was more the one trying to impose Camilla as future Queen. Camilla never liked the limelight, IMO. She's very discreet and simple. I honestly can't see her claiming her title of Queen.

 

[serenissima]

It has occurred to me that maybe Camilla really doesn't want to be Queen, and would prefer to be Princess Consort. She may see herself having more freedom with the lesser title and it might be her idea.

Just a thought.

Well, that was what we were told before they got married. Mrs Parker-Bowles didn't really want to get married but was very happy to carry on things as they had been etc but since it was the Prince of Wales with whom she was in love and the Queen apparently wanted the prince to formalise their relationship etc that they got married though Camilla was very reluctant etc. Then, Camilla herself said something like that she was not wanting to become HM the Queen upon the prince's assenssion to the throne and if possible wanted to hold a lesser style such as a princess or whatever. Then some people were saying that they would associate a "princess" with a younger woman etc that I was saying but the Princess Alice was very old but we wouldn't find that strange etc.

So, I, too, think that Camilla would rather stay as a princess (or even as Camilla Parker-Bowles and seeing to her gardens and horses etc) but her husband has to have everything in his way and wants her to become HM the Queen when he becomes the king etc, so I understand.

 

[branchg]

And you're probably right Roslyn. I always thought Charles was more the one to trying to impose Camilla as future Queen. Camilla never liked the limelight, IMO. She's very discreet and simple. I honestly can't see her claiming her title of Queen.

I actually agree with this notion myself. I do not believe Camilla really wants to be Queen nor was she particularly interested in marrying Charles and becoming The Princess of Wales. She is very independent and marrying a future king is not exactly a life of leisure.

The title issue will be settled one way or another when the time comes. While I think Parliament will very reluctant to change the precedent, it certainly is possible to do so and allow her to hold the lesser style and rank of Princess Consort.

 

[MARG]

It has occurred to me that maybe Camilla really doesn't want to be Queen, and would prefer to be Princess Consort. She may see herself having more freedom with the lesser title and it might be her idea.

She is the CP wife. How can she possibly think the we, the public, would expect less of her after Charles is crowned? Whatever else she is, she is not stupid!

Given that most of us see the BRF as the diplomatic arm of government, do we really want to reduce the public and international worth of the BRF with muddled precedences and the situation of a Princess Consort being well down the pecking order of her eurpean counterparts when they are crowned and she is not?

The UK would be the laughingstock of Europe! Every trashy (and not a few mainstream) paper would be willing to pay big money for every photo of 'Princess Consort Camilla" curtseying to Queen's Maxima, Letizia, Mary. etc!

All this talk of Camilla being less than Queen Consort looks very like cutting off one's nose to spite ones face!

 

[serenissima]

You should really try to make a difference between things that the government does (or does not) and what the prince does (or does not).. What Charles is doing at the moment is trying to influence politicians in order to help causes he sees as necessary for the country. He can't do it openly because it's a constitutional monarchy in Britain and it's the politicians who decide, the men and women given their office by the people of Britain through their votes. Charles has nothing to decide and once he is king, he can't even write open letters to politicians, he can only "advise" the prime minister then. So what can he do? He is chained by the law but still tries to make a difference.

Ah, and the people receiving honours are not selected by the Royal family, but by the politicians and the government. So put the blame for those OBE's to them.

But maybe we should switch that discussion to the Charles & Camilla-opinion-thread? Mods? Thank you in advance.

Oh, having taken your kind suggestion, I put my opinion in another thread. Well, I know that the MBEs and OBEs are not selected by the Crown but are nominated by each organisation to the regional lord lieutenant and s/he would present the names of such persons to the government and then passed onto the Crown. I know people who were invested with these honours and one of my own relative was OBE, too, (he died last year - his funeral was well attended) that I know how things are done re: these telephone calls etc coming from the Buckingham Palace etc.

Now I cannot even remember why I started talking about the MBEs and what-not. Oh, I think it was because you were saying that the Prince of Wales kindly would write to those people etc and I was trying to say that all the royal persons would do after they visited places as a matter of formality. I have read few letters from such persons who attended some of the charities in which I am involved etc and they do make sure that we understand that they admire our hard work etc etc. So, it's not that the Prince of Wales is the only person who sends such letters of thanks to people but they all do and some of those who organised such events get OBEs and what not when they themselves had not done very much. Please do not get me wrong, some of those people are very hard working people and a few of people whom I know got their honours for their greater works to our country.

Anyway, going back to Camilla and her title, I don't think that she is really bothered. More likely, she wouldn't like to have one but would be quite happy with her former style of plain Mrs Camilla Parker-Bowles as she said before her marriage to the Prince of Wales.

 

[Madame Royale]

The UK would be the laughingstock of Europe!

I highly doubt that.

Princess Consort being well down the pecking order of her eurpean counterparts.

Every trashy (and not a few mainstream) paper would be willing to pay big money for every photo of 'Princess Consort Camilla" curtseying to Queen's Maxima, Letizia, Mary. etc!

That's incorrect.

Camilla will never, at any stage, be required to curtsy to any of her continental counterparts. She may not be styled or titled as Queen but she shall continue to hold a precedence that would otherwise be reserved for the wife of the King.

 

[MARG]

Camilla will never, at any stage, be required to curtsy to any of her continental counterparts. She may not be styled or titled as Queen but she shall continue to hold a precedence that would otherwise be reserved for the wife of the King.

If her precedence in Europe is the same as a queen, why is she not going to be a Queen?

She is either a Queen or she is a Princess, and in the minds of most ordinary people a Queen trumps a Princess on any given day of the week!
Any way you look at it, if the government changes the law, will it apply to any future queen, or just Camilla? Will Prince William's future wife be a Princess or a Queen?

If it is indeed the "Camilla Law", isn't that just a perceived "punishment" for past sins, to appease a small part of the people,and a very public slap on the face to the "King"?

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Maybe, but If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . It is a Duck!

 

[Madame Royale]

The fact remains that no matter her title, she shall not be required to curtsy to any European (let alone Asian or African) monarch or their consort as you implied would be the case.

I said a precedence that would otherwise be reserved for the wife of the King. I perhaps should have said a precedence which corresponds with the observance reserved for the husband of the Queen.

A punishment? Well, no one asked for them to make this intended change public knowledge when they did. It was a decision made by Clarence House (possibly with the support of BP as I'd imagine) and those who find it an appropriate alternative cannot be faulted for agreeing. A slap in the face? Then it is they who have inflicted that very slap.

And yes, I think it should start and stop with Camilla, and not for any reasons that I would consider her personal business. 'Camilla Law'...I like that...hehe.

but If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . It is a Duck!

To you and others she is a Queen in waiting for the simple fact she is the King's wife and as history has scribed, the wife of a King is his Queen. I get that and fair enough...

To me it is desirable that she be created Princess Consort as it is a title which, in my personal opinion, regards her in her own right, becomes her perfectly and maintains her precedence, although titled lesser than what is the conventional norm, as a reigning consort. It makes her inimitable amongst her continental equals and I like that. It's unique to the establishment and unparalleled.

 

[noldorlord]

If it is indeed the "Camilla Law", isn't that just a perceived "punishment" for past sins, to appease a small part of the people,and a very public slap on the face to the "King"?

Didn’t King Henry 8th leave the Roman church so that he could marry whom ever he wished. All of his successive wives were called Queen.
Why not Camilla!