Title for Camilla

[Jo of Palatine]

I In the case of Princess Marina, she was born as a princess that she could carry on using that style after her marriage to the Duke of Kent, so it appears as in the case of HDSH Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

I believe there is a difference as Marina married after the 1914/1917-decrees which where about the British Royals having foreign titles.

Lady Katherine Brantram, daughter and sister of Greek kings, did not carry on with her Royal name and title after she married a British citizen and became naturalized. She was created Lady Katherine with the status of a daughter of a duke, which is the highest status the souverain could confer in such a situation as Lady Katherine was not a direct descendant of a British souverain, thus she could not be a British princess.

In case of princess Marina it was not necessary as she acquired a British Royal title with her marriage - a title and style she could use. She still possessed that title, so it was just a change of courtesy style she asked for after she was widowed and that's obviously no problem.

With Albert it was different as at that time foreign titles were still recognised.

As for (coming back to topic) Camilla: if the palace believes that the courtesy style of HRH The Princess Consort for the lady titles HM The Queen Consort needs no letters patents, then maybe they are right. But still I believe it will confuse people to no end and in the end those people who support the monarchy are those who stick with tradition and want the wife of the king styled and titled as Her Majesty The queen consort.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

No, of course not. For example, Diana was Lady Diana Spencer and became HRH The Princess of Wales with marriage. She no longer used her own style since her married rank and title was superior to her own. With divorce, she lost her style and rank as HRH and technically was Lady Diana, Princess of Wales.

But Diana was not a peeress in her own right, she only had the style of the daughter of an earl. While The Countess of Sutherland is in fact a peeress in her own right. So what happens if she married a HRH?

 

[serenissima]

But Diana was not a peeress in her own right, she only had the style of the daughter of an earl. While The Countess of Sutherland is in fact a peeress in her own right. So what happens if she married a HRH?

I suppose she will retain her peerage but just won't sit in the house. Then, maybe, later, by a special reminder or whatever, her comital title may be passed onto one of the sons or daughters who is not the heir to the throne. How is that ?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I suppose she will retain her peerage but just won't sit in the house. Then, maybe, later, by a special reminder or whatever, her comital title may be passed onto one of the sons or daughters who is not the heir to the throne. How is that ?

But if it is so, then Camilla could be created a princess in her own right as well. Even though she will probably be one day the wife of the king.

It simply had never before been necessary to create the wife of the king a princess. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. Though I'M sad to think they would steep so low when it comes to a lady who has done the RF nothing but pride since she became a member.

 

[serenissima]

I believe there is a difference as Marina married after the 1914/1917-decrees which where about the British Royals having foreign titles.

It seems as though Princess Marina remained a Princess of Greece and Denmark in her own right even after her marriage to the Duke of Kent. Following her elder son's wedding, she simply reverted to her own substantive princely title and her late husband's niece the Queen permitted her to be style as HRH Princess Marina the Duchess of Kent instead of HRH the Dowager Duchess of Kent.

But if it is so, then Camilla could be created a princess in her own right as well. Even though she will probably be one day the wife of the king.

Well, as Her Majesty's subject, I do not particularly rate Camilla as any greater than what she was before, perhaps, though I am now supposed to be lower in rank than her since she is now Her Royal Highness. I do think that Camilla wanted to have a quiet life enjoying her country pursuit such as riding, gardening, fox hunting etc rather than attending those numerous functions and receptions that are not her cup of tea so to speak. However, she fell in love with the Prince of Wales ans his first wife died etc, all this had to happen.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

It seems as though Princess Marina remained a Princess of Greece and Denmark in her own right even after her marriage to the Duke of Kent. Following her elder son's wedding, she simply reverted to her own substantive princely title and her late husband's niece the Queen permitted her to be style as HRH Princess Marina the Duchess of Kent instead of HRH the Dowager Duchess of Kent.

As I posted before the rule in the Uk at that time was that without a Royal license there would be no certificate of citizenship of Britain including the foreign title. I'm not even sure if there was such a certificate issued for princess Marina. And if so, if the authorities followed the rules or were advised to do it differently.

But: as a close relative of the souverain Marina could be styled as "princess Marina" in order to highlight her personal relationship to the monarch if the monarch agreed. Which was obviously the case. But the same pattern worked for Alice and Diana as well, obviously, even though they were not Royal by birth but added sons to the RF.

(Many thanks to Charlotte1 who investigated further and pointed me to important information. )

 

[serenissima]

We were supposed to call Princess Alice "Princess Alice" because she did not like the title of the Dowager Duchess of Kent but were not supposed to call Diana "Princess Diana" but "Diana, Princess of Wales" without "the" prefixed to "Princess" according to the customary for a divorced wife of a peer.

 

[serenissima]

Oh, going back to Camilla, it will cause more disputes and confusions when the Prince of Wales becomes the king. Currently Camilla takes the 4th place in the order of precedence after the Queen, the Princess Royal, Princess Alexandra the Honourable Lady Ogilvy. What will happen when her husband becomes the king will be very interesting. I suppose Charles will naturally wants her to be the first in the order of precedence but this will make Princess Anne & Princess Alexandra who have been enjoying their precedence over Camilla "come down".

I wonder HM will do something about it before the Demise of the Crown takes place ?

 

[TheTruth]

We were supposed to call Princess Alice "Princess Alice" because she did not like the title of the Dowager Duchess of Kent but were not supposed to call Diana "Princess Diana" but "Diana, Princess of Wales" without "the" prefixed to "Princess" according to the customary for a divorced wife of a peer.

I guess so but people were used to call her Princess Diana when she was still Princess to the eyes of the law. Hard to loose the habit. But she had so many nicknames : Princess Di, Lady Di, etc . The best is to call her Diana and everyone's happy. I believe the same for Camilla.

 

[Madame Royale]

But still I believe it will confuse people to no end

It willl hardly cause confusion when the matter of Camilla's formal designation, is once and for all settled. If created Princess Consort then that is how she'll be known. If she remain's Queen Consort, then that is how she'll be known.

There is little reason for perplexity and it is only those with an interest, such as ourselves, who really appreciate the measure of things whereas the broader public are generally, and I'm sure will be, pacified by the likes of a press release and perhaps a news bulletin with a follow up story in the evening news.

Currently Camilla takes the 4th place in the order of precedence after the Queen, the Princess Royal, Princess Alexandra the Honourable Lady Ogilvy.

That is only for private occasions, and reflects her position as a royal Duchess and not a Princess (though technically she is as much a Princess as is she is a Duchess). The Duchess however continues to rank second in the Order of Precedence at official ceremonies.

 

[branchg]

I believe there is a difference as Marina married after the 1914/1917-decrees which where about the British Royals having foreign titles.

Marina was styled "HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent" upon marriage with the consent of George V. She was born a princess of Greece & Denmark and retain her right to be titled as such with the consent of The Sovereign.

A similar situation arose with the marriage of HRH The Prince Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh to HIH Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna. Queen Victoria refused to grant her precedence ahead of The Princess of Wales (the German protocol states an Imperial Highness always outranks a Royal Highness), but did grant her the right to be styled "HI & RH Marie, The Duchess of Edinburgh".

The 1917 Letters Patent issued by George V simply clarified earlier letters patent stating only the children and male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign were allowed the style of Royal Highness and Prince/Princess of the UK. The use of "Highness" was eliminated and all German relatives currently using titles from the former duchies and kingdoms were required to reliniquish them.

 

[serenissima]

That is only for private occasions, and reflects her position as a royal Duchess and not a Princess (though technically she is as much a Princess as is she is a Duchess). The Duchess however continues to rank second in the Order of Precedence at official ceremonies.

Really ? However, at the state banquet etc., Camilla seems to take the 4th place accordingly and appeared to be treated as lower than the Princess Royal.

I guess so but people were used to call her Princess Diana when she was still Princess to the eyes of the law. Hard to loose the habit. But she had so many nicknames : Princess Di, Lady Di, etc . The best is to call her Diana and everyone's happy. I believe the same for Camilla.

Oh, that is true. People call Nikki Graham Princess Nikki though she is not a princess at all.

 

[Madame Royale]

Camilla was behind her husband who was behind his father who was behind his mother, thus maintaining her place as second lady in the order of precedence during official engagements.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Marina was styled "HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent" upon marriage with the consent of George V. She was born a princess of Greece & Denmark and retain her right to be titled as such with the consent of The Sovereign.

.

Do you have a source for this claim? Am mightily interested as I searched quite some time for such a source.

 

[serenissima]

Camilla was behind her husband who was behind his father who was behind his mother, thus maintaining her place as second lady in the order of precedence during official engagements.

Yes, she is always behind her husband if not at his side. She always sits in the same carriage with the Prince of Wales when the Princess Royal et al are in the second carriage etc. However, wouldn't that be because it will look rather unnatural for a married couple to sit separately because of the precedence order - in otherwise it is a mere common practice out of tradition ? Having said that, in those days, things were very different that the order of precedence did mean order. However, nowadays, things are done as though something out of a Disney princesses story.

 

[branchg]

Do you have a source for this claim? Am mightily interested as I searched quite some time for such a source.

She usually used the customary style of HRH The Duchess of Kent after marriage, the same as her sister-in-laws, but was always "Princess Marina" in name.

After the death of her husband and prior to her son's marriage in 1961, she formalized her style as "Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent" with The Queen's consent.

 

[Madame Royale]

Yes, she is always behind her husband if not at his side. She always sits in the same carriage with the Prince of Wales when the Princess Royal et al are in the second carriage etc. However, wouldn't that be because it will look rather unnatural for a married couple to sit separately because of the precedence order - in otherwise it is a mere common practice out of tradition ? Having said that, in those days, things were very different that the order of precedence did mean order. However, nowadays, things are done as though something out of a Disney princesses story.

I'm not quite sure I follow you, but it is what it is and it is as follows...

Privately, Camilla is ranked fourth in the Order of Precedence for female members of the royal family. She is not of the blood royal and so HM The Queen made it that she would take the precedence of a royal Duchess and not a Princess as it is the Duchy title Camilla uses.

Officially, nothing has changed and Camilla is preceded only by HM The Queen.

 

[branchg]

Really ? However, at the state banquet etc., Camilla seems to take the 4th place accordingly and appeared to be treated as lower than the Princess Royal.

She was clearly in second place after The Queen at the recent state banquet for the President of France. Official precedence is automatic in law and must be followed on state occasions.

Court precedence places her fourth, after The Queen, The Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra, but even here, she is usually photographed following The Queen on royal family occasions. The formalities of court protocol haven't been followed since the reign of George V.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Yes, she is always behind her husband if not at his side. She always sits in the same carriage with the Prince of Wales when the Princess Royal et al are in the second carriage etc. However, wouldn't that be because it will look rather unnatural for a married couple to sit separately because of the precedence order - in otherwise it is a mere common practice out of tradition ? Having said that, in those days, things were very different that the order of precedence did mean order. However, nowadays, things are done as though something out of a Disney princesses story.

For me it makes sense that there is an order in which spouses are added next to their husbands, but once they are on their own, they have a different place. I understand that Camilla has a position of her own which is inferior to that of Princess Alice (an honorable position given by the queen) and The Princess Royal as a princess of the blood but higher than all other ladies of the UK but once she is there with her husband, she shares his precedence and is the second lady of the land. I don't think it is important for her, though.

You could see what happened at the Austrian Court when the Crown Prince Rudolf killed himself. His widow was no longer the wife of the Crown Prince, only the daughter-in-law of the emperor and the empress. As she had no rank of her own, she actually had no place in the order of precedence as long as neither the emperor or the empress were present from which to take her own rank. Such a humiliating situation for the young Archduchess, so in the end she refused to go out anymore.

 

[scooter]

Here's my question. Do you think that the announced 'Princess Consort' role was seriously meant to be her title? Or do you think that it was a pacifier to the masses at the time of the wedding, in order to make the union more palatable, and they always meant for her to really be Queen if and when Prince Charles becomes King?

 

[branchg]

Here's my question. Do you think that the announced 'Princess Consort' role was seriously meant to be her title? Or do you think that it was a pacifier to the masses at the time of the wedding, in order to make the union more palatable, and they always meant for her to really be Queen if and when Prince Charles becomes King?

It was meant to be a "quick fix" answer to public sensitivities to the idea of Camilla taking Diana's place. They took care of the immediate issue by announcing she would not use her senior title as Princess of Wales, an inevitable concession given that Diana died with the style and was the mother of a future king.

But the issue of being known as Princess Consort was quickly challenged by Parliament, since it was not made clear that consent was required to waive her right to be Queen. After fumbling around, it was finally conceded by the Lord Chancellor that legislation would, in fact, be required for Camilla to use a lesser title.

The intention all along was to gloss it over and hope that The Queen would live long enough for people to get used to the idea of Camilla being Queen Consort. Whether this will happen or not remains to be seen.

 

[branchg]

For me it makes sense that there is an order in which spouses are added next to their husbands, but once they are on their own, they have a different place. I understand that Camilla has a position of her own which is inferior to that of Princess Alice (an honorable position given by the queen) and The Princess Royal as a princess of the blood but higher than all other ladies of the UK but once she is there with her husband, she shares his precedence and is the second lady of the land. I don't think it is important for her, though.

We don't know if she would have been placed behind Princess Alice in precedence at court since HRH passed away. Diana always came fourth at court (behind The Queen, The Queen Mother and Princess Margaret) while married.

Usually, court precedence places princesses of the blood before princesses by marriage, but not always, particularly for The Princess of Wales, who traditionally always ranked first after a reigning Queen, Queen Consort or Queen Dowager.

 

[iowabelle]

I think Clarence House should abandon the farce and just acknowledge that when the time comes, we'll have Queen Camilla.

There's no list of "queenly" qualities so, as long as Charles succeeds to the throne, there's no reason Camilla shouldn't be acknowledged as queen.

 

[Elspeth]

I've never heard the "Diana came fourth" before. If Princess Margaret, as a Princess of the Blood and younger child of a sovereign, outranked Diana then Princess Anne should have done as well.

Every time I heard Diana being mentioned in terms of precedence at Court, it was always as the third lady in the land behind the Queen and the Queen Mother.

 

[serenissima]

For me it makes sense that there is an order in which spouses are added next to their husbands, but once they are on their own, they have a different place. I understand that Camilla has a position of her own which is inferior to that of Princess Alice (an honorable position given by the queen) and The Princess Royal as a princess of the blood but higher than all other ladies of the UK but once she is there with her husband, she shares his precedence and is the second lady of the land. I don't think it is important for her, though.

You could see what happened at the Austrian Court when the Crown Prince Rudolf killed himself. His widow was no longer the wife of the Crown Prince, only the daughter-in-law of the emperor and the empress. As she had no rank of her own, she actually had no place in the order of precedence as long as neither the emperor or the empress were present from which to take her own rank. Such a humiliating situation for the young Archduchess, so in the end she refused to go out anymore.

Oh, I understood that Princess Stéphanie of Belgium was styled as Her Imperial & Royal Highness the Dowager Crown Princess of Austria after her husband's death until her marriage to the Count Lónyai upon which she became to be styled as HRH Princess Stéphanie, the Countess Lónyai. Then after their marriage, she was styled as HRH Princess Stéphanie, the Princess Lónyai of Nagy-Lónya becaused her new Hungarian husband was created as the Prince Lónyai of Nagy-Lónya by the Charles I. She remained as archduchess after her husband's death but lost that style when she married Count Lónyai, so I understand.

I also understood that Stéphanie's more conservative personality did not sit very well with her husband's more liberal ideology etc that the couple became more distant from each other which resulted in Stéphanie's reluctancy in taking her part in imperial ceremonials and functions in due course.

Anyway, she sounded to have managed to have a happy marriage with her new husband though in the end she and her husband had to evacuate from their estate due to the advancing Red Army etc.

 

[branchg]

I've never heard the "Diana came fourth" before. If Princess Margaret, as a Princess of the Blood and younger child of a sovereign, outranked Diana then Princess Anne should have done as well.

Every time I heard Diana being mentioned in terms of precedence at Court, it was always as the third lady in the land behind the Queen and the Queen Mother.

Court precedence is entirely at the will of The Sovereign and has nothing to do with official precedence. Diana, like Camilla, was always right after The Queen (and The Queen Mother in Diana's case since she was living) as the wife of the heir to the throne.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Oh, I understood that Princess Stéphanie of Belgium was styled as Her Imperial & Royal Highness the Dowager Crown Princess of Austria after her husband's death until her marriage to the Count Lónyai

We were talking about the order of precedence and in this, at that time, at the Austrian Court, the ex-Crown Princess had no place/rank of her own but only in connection with her in-laws. As the empress was rarely in Vienna, Stephanie simply found herself between all chairs (as we say in Germany) and that caused a problem for her.

 

[branchg]

I've never heard the "Diana came fourth" before. If Princess Margaret, as a Princess of the Blood and younger child of a sovereign, outranked Diana then Princess Anne should have done as well.

Every time I heard Diana being mentioned in terms of precedence at Court, it was always as the third lady in the land behind the Queen and the Queen Mother.

Princess Margaret was the senior princess of the blood closest to the Sovereign, followed by The Queen's daughter. Court precedence is entirely at the will of The Sovereign and means little today, except as a tradition.

In George V's court, someone like Peter Phillips would have to bow to every Royal Highness present and walk last into the dining room. Obviously, they don't worry about these issues of title and rank today.

 

[serenissima]

We were talking about the order of precedence and in this, at that time, at the Austrian Court, the ex-Crown Princess had no place/rank of her own but only in connection with her in-laws. As the empress was rarely in Vienna, Stephanie simply found herself between all chairs (as we say in Germany) and that caused a problem for her.

Oh, I see. Poor woman, this Princess Stephanie was. She got some STD from her husband whilst they were still married etc, too, so I understand. Then, she did not get on with her own father in Belgium either etc.

In comparison, Augusta, the Dowager Princess of Wales, sounded to have had a better position that this Stephanie woman and she was treated as the first lady of the realm for there was no queen consort in England at that time etc. though the press & the general public were quite hostile to the Princess Dowager because of the rumour that she was having an affair with the Earl of Bute or whatever.

 

[scooter]

It was meant to be a "quick fix" answer to public sensitivities to the idea of Camilla taking Diana's place. They took care of the immediate issue by announcing she would not use her senior title as Princess of Wales, an inevitable concession given that Diana died with the style and was the mother of a future king.

But the issue of being known as Princess Consort was quickly challenged by Parliament, since it was not made clear that consent was required to waive her right to be Queen. After fumbling around, it was finally conceded by the Lord Chancellor that legislation would, in fact, be required for Camilla to use a lesser title.

The intention all along was to gloss it over and hope that The Queen would live long enough for people to get used to the idea of Camilla being Queen Consort. Whether this will happen or not remains to be seen.

I think your take on this is absolutely correct. I just wonder if 'they' (palace machine)thought that no one would pick up on the legislation change issue, in which case 'they' could act surprised when the time came and say oh well, she'll have to be Queen after all. Thinking by that time, the public will have warmed to Camilla.