Title for Camilla

[branchg]

So, let me see if I understand this. Regardless of everything that has occurred, when Charles becomes King, Camilla is automatically Queen--she cannot hold a lesser style because is Queen, according to Baldwin when Edward wanted to marry Wallis and give her the style of HRH The Duchess of Lancaster. That wouldn't work because the wife of the sovereign automatically becomes the Queen, correct?

Correct. In law and constitutional precedent, Camilla is automatically HM The Queen since Parliament has never recognized a morganatic marriage in which The King's wife holds a lesser style and rank than Queen Consort. In 1936, as in the future, if Parliament chooses to recognize a lesser rank and title for the wife of the King, it must be done through legislation and consented to by the Crown Commonwealth.

So, one route is to create a law before Charles ascends the throne that would make Camilla HRH The Princess Consort upon his ascension; that way there is no confusion and it is settled in such a way that she is never Queen and thusly, never loses the title of Queen.

Technically, it would be possible for Parliament to pass legislation now, but it would require a more general change in the title and succession of the monarchy in which ALL future wives of a King would not have the right to be Queen automatically, but instead be granted honours and titles in their own right by the fount of honour when the time comes.

Let's say she is created HRH The Princess Consort. If Charles predeceases Camilla, what would she then be known as? She wouldn't be the Dowager Princess Consort because William's wife would be Queen--would Camilla continue to be the Princess Consort? What would her ranking be?

I assume Charles would create her a Princess of the UK in her own right and declare her style and title to be HRH The Princess Consort while the King reigned and HRH The Princess Camilla as a widow. This could be dealt with in the letters patent creating her a Princess.

A Dowager Queen still holds a great deal of rank--would we be looking at yet another title change for Camilla? Why should she have to lose title rank because Charles dies? How would that work? That's an issue that should be addressed.

This is why they cannot allow a situation in which she is legally Queen, but styled as Princess Consort instead. The precedents do not exist and must be decided on one way or another. Either she is allowed to be Queen with full rights and precedence or is downgraded to a morganatic wife with rights defined by letters patent.

It is much easier to just let her be Queen and Dowager Queen. That is how it has been done. Why change it now?

There is no reason to change it unless the public is adamantly opposed to Camilla being Queen when the time comes. If that is the case, The Prime Minister will introduce the necessary legislation in the Commons to take care of it.

 

[branchg]

But if Camilla becomes Princess Consort when Charles ascends the throne. Wouldn't that make the marriage look morganatic?

It wouldn't look morganatic, it would BE morganatic since Camilla would not share her husband's rank or title. She would be downgraded to a Princess with the style of Royal Highness, instead of her rightful title of Queen with the style of Her Majesty.

As what happened in 1937 with The Duchess of Windsor, Wallis was downgraded to a Duchess with the style of Her Grace, instead of her rightful title of Princess Edward with the style of Her Royal Highness as the wife of a son of the Sovereign.

 

[jcbcode99]

branchg, Thank you for your detailed and thorough response. I think it makes a great deal of sense and simplifies this whole mess.

I have to say that I find this entire possiblity of Camilla being downgraded and given the status of morganatic wife utterly ridiculous and unnecessary. And, honestly, does anyone really believe that Prince Charles is going to let Camilla be anything but his equal in marriage? After everything they have endured--after everything SHE has endured, I really find it hard to believe that Charles is ok with her receiving such a slap-ola in the face. I think whoever came up with this HRH The Princess Consort thing should be sacked.

There was some discussion about whether Camilla even wanted to be Queen--well, of course she does. Honestly, put yourself in her position--do you want to be known as the woman who was downgraded in title? No, you do not. If she has to fulfill duties at Charles' side, then she should have the title too.

Honestly, this entire thing just irks me. And, the whole Maxima thing irks me, too. Wives should share the rank of their husband. This is not the middle ages, after all.

 

[wbenson]

But we do have morganatic marriage in a way. Look at civil partnerships. If I entered into one with Prince Harry, I'm not entitled to his titles and styles, whereas a woman would be.

I don't know if that's much of a difference, though. It's never been possible for a man to take on his spouse's titles.

 

[BeatrixFan]

What about lesbians though?

 

[MARG]

No, it's a war between common sense and pandering to the Sun readers.

Just a wild punt here, but I have this crazy idea that when Queen Elizabeth II dies and the traditional "The Queen is dead, long live the King!" is announced, any tacky messing around with the additional statement ... "But the Queen is actually the Princess!" will not be forthcoming.

Any official punishment for perceived past sins, enacted into law at such a time, will not sit well with a Great Britain and Commonwealth in mourning who would see it as a grievous insult to QEII herself and, to the King.

Squabbling over such details would be offensive in that time of grief, implementation of any downgrading of Royalty would be perceived by the general public (obviously not Sun readers) as an insensitive attack on the Royal Family not to mention the monarchy itself.

So .... moves to change the law would have to be done in the very near future, if not now. Noone knows the number of their days, and so it is with HM Queen Elizabeth II.

Conversely, any parliamentary moves to change the Duchess of Cornwall's status will look like an unseemly personal attack on HM QEII, who appears to be going out of her way to publically display her appoval of "Crown Princess Camilla".

So, first we will mourn and have an enormous Royal Funeral. Then we will have a coronation, and we will celebrate. That is our tradition.

War? I look for the triumph of common sense!


ps: When is the next election?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Just a wild punt here, but I have this crazy idea that when Queen Elizabeth II dies and the traditional "The Queen is dead, long live the King!" is announced, any tacky messing around with the additional statement ... "But the Queen is actually the Princess!" will not be forthcoming.

Well said and I agree. That'll be the way of things. The next election isn't until 2009 but Gordon may have to call one this year depending on how things hold up.

 

[Madame Royale]

There was some discussion about whether Camilla even wanted to be Queen--well, of course she does.

We don't know that. We can ony surmise given she married an heir to a throne...

I, personally, don't think Camilla would be much phased either way. Whatever her title, she's with her soulmate.

Personally, and this is not meant with ill intent, I just can't 'associate' with a Queen Camilla. To me, she doesn't present as a possible Queen, nor does such a title become her I think. It's not that she was an adultress, and it certainly has nothing to do with the late Diana, Princess of Wales. Diana was never going to be Queen Consort anyway.

Camilla is, dare I say it, fresh. She has brought something that neither Diana or Charles posses, and to be honest I'm not even sure what it is. Yet, I 'sense' it and appreciate it. She's not particularly beautiful as such, but there is such warmth about her, such character and amiability.

I see her and I see what I'd describe as a true Duchess. Image, attire, composure...she's every bit the royal Duchess and I'm so glade she is addressed as such. Though one of her many titles by marriage, I just couldn't imagine her being known as Princess of Wales. And again, not because of Diana but because she fits the illustration of a Duchess so wonderfully well.

I want her to be known as Princess Consort because like Camilla, it's something unprecedented. Not that I purposely wish for the destabilisation of tradition, but for someone I view as unique, I want her to have something which is her own, in her own right. I understand that this would be, ultimately, considered a downgrade from her hereditary entitlement as spouse of the King, but to be created a Princess of the United Kingdom is such an honour which I would like to see bestowed upon her. Being Queen, she would be Her Majesty, but only because her husband is King. It identifies not her, but her husbands position and I'd like her to have something that is her own to identify with. And as Fount of Honours, I'm most certain her husband would ensure her precedence at court would reflect the fact she is the King's wife. She would still be First Lady in the Land.

My reasons may seem flimsy to some, and you're welcome to think whatever you wish (really not phased), but to me Camilla fits the image of what I'd expect a Princess Consort to be, and so it's my hope that any legislation needed, will be passed when the times comes. If not? Well, I think I'll manage..hehe.

No doubt my motivations are entirely different to that of the court.

 

[wbenson]

What about lesbians though?

I think it would be the same. Women have never been able to give a title to their spouses.

I think in the case of a royal, however, something would at least be offered.

Wasn't it a while ago that someone in the college of arms proposed "Laddy" for the husband of a knight? I remember thinking it would sound ridiculous. There has to be something out there better than "Laddy," which sounds like something one calls a pet dog.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well I'd just go with the same title tbh. If a man marries Sir Mincing Merrily then he becomes Sir Justin Queer. It does seem that Britain has a bit of a double standard when it comes to marriage. If you're what society deems to be morally pure then you can have your husband's title, if you're not then you have to settle for something lower as a hallmark of shame to be borne forever more until you burn in the fires of the great below. And I thought we'd moved on. Just let Camilla be Queen and I'll be happy. Because if I'm not happy it's going to be a very long decade.

 

[jcbcode99]

We don't know that. We can ony surmise given she married an heir to a throne...

Madame Royale, I am speechless. Well, actually, you know that is impossible , but I really understand your post--and I have to say that you make a very good point. I also think that the title of HRH Duchess suits Camilla very well--it is regal and sophisticated and elegant--just like her. I admire your reasons for wanting Camilla to be HRH The Princess Consort, and I canot help but on one level to agree with you but I am still of the mind that Camilla has the right to be Queen Camilla. Just as I thought that Princess Lilian should have been Queen Lilian--I firmly feel that the wife deserves the same style as the husband. Call me old-fashioned--it's who I am! But, should Camilla become HRH The Princess Consort I will remember you words and I think I will be able to sit back and smile.

 

[Madame Royale]

You really are a sweetheart, jcbcode99 I am glade you see my intent, for what it is.

I too understand you're reasons and the reasons of many others who believe Camilla should remain Queen. She is his wife, and the wife of the King is his Queen.

I guess the major difference between our respective opinions is that I'm not talking of rights or entitlements, but of bestowing a gift, an honour and a privilege to someone I see as worthy of such a break in tradition. Personally, I'm not viewing this possibility of change as an equality issue, but as something extroardinary and unmatched...

 

[branchg]

Well, I agree it doesn't necessarily have to be the end of the world for Camilla to be HRH The Princess Consort instead of Queen. After all, she is a second wife and not the mother of the King's children, so the traditional precedents have already been broken anyway.

And the truth is Charles is likely to be quite old by the time he ascends the throne and his reign will be relatively short. Given all the monarchy has survived for thousands of years, it can certainly evolve and move on from his wife not being Queen Consort.

 

[wymanda]

Well I'd just go with the same title tbh. If a man marries Sir Mincing Merrily then he becomes Sir Justin Queer.

You crack me up BeatrixFan!!!!!!

I assume that's why Sir Eltons' partner isn't Lady David??????

Wasn't it a while ago that someone in the college of arms proposed "Laddy" for the husband of a knight? I remember thinking it would sound ridiculous. There has to be something out there better than "Laddy," which sounds like something one calls a pet dog.

I saw in Hello that the title for Bill Clinton should Hilary win office had been suggested as Laddie by some of his Scots' friends!

 

[Empress]

As far as I understand it, Maxima will be known as Queen Maxima. The thread that is being bandied about here, is one that is a discussion of a new act passed in the Netherlands, but they've made no specific provisions as to Maxima. And as this was passed after their marriage, it is likely that she will be known as Queen. There has been no official or unofficial communications saying that this will effect the spouse of a monarch, but more that children born of royal marriages, be they male or female, have equal rank, so to speak. I personally believe that they will follow tradition. I do not think that this act was meant

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I think it's interesting that in conservative Spain, the king created his daughters on their marriage duchesses and that their husbands took over these titles even though the husband was not created a duke.

 

[branchg]

I think it's interesting that in conservative Spain, the king created his daughters on their marriage duchesses and that their husbands took over these titles even though the husband was not created a duke.

Spain is actually quite liberal with regard to their royal family and Juan Carlos a modern man. For a divorcee to marry the heir to the Roman Catholic throne of Spain without a fuss is pretty progressive.

With regard to his daughters' titles, the dukedoms were styles created for life only (they do not pass to the grandchildren of the King). Inaki and Jaime hold them as a courtesy style, being married to Infantas of Spain, not in their own right as Grandees or Dukes.

With Jaime and Elena divorcing, it is likely he will lose the courtesy eventually or be granted something else in his own right.

 

[tinkerbell1948]

Madame Royale I've been meaning to say what a lovely post about Camilla.....yes a true Duchess

It doesn't really worry me what her title will be after Charles becomes King but your reasoning about her being known as the Princess Consort makes it a title in it's own right rather than a "consolation prize"

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Spain is actually quite liberal with regard to their royal family and Juan Carlos a modern man. For a divorcee to marry the heir to the Roman Catholic throne of Spain without a fuss is pretty progressive.

With regard to his daughters' titles, the dukedoms were styles created for life only (they do not pass to the grandchildren of the King). Inaki and Jaime hold them as a courtesy style, being married to Infantas of Spain, not in their own right as Grandees or Dukes.

With Jaime and Elena divorcing, it is likely he will lose the courtesy eventually or be granted something else in his own right.

Jaime already is a marquess and a grande in his own right.

 

[branchg]

Jaime already is a marquess and a grande in his own right.

Is he? He was the fourth of six sons and not the Count of Ripalda in his own right.

 

[KingJosh]

If they haven't already passed an act in parliment to with hold the Title of Queen from Her Royal Highness, then i don't think they ever will. And besides Charles looks so happy now, why not make her Queen.

 

[noldorlord]

If they haven't already passed an act in parliment to with hold the Title of Queen from Her Royal Highness, then i don't think they ever will. And besides Charles looks so happy now, why not make her Queen.

I do not think that will come up in parliment until it needs to. That is the British way

 

[Madame Royale]

That is the British way

Without a doubt, it is!

Madame Royale I've been meaning to say what a lovely post about Camilla.....yes a true Duchess.

It doesn't really worry me what her title will be after Charles becomes King but your reasoning about her being known as the Princess Consort makes it a title in it's own right rather than a "consolation prize"

That is very nice of you, tinkerbell1948. It's nice to know some can either understand, or associate with one's resoning...

 

[Skydragon]

I do not think that will come up in parliament until it needs to. That is the British way

Quite rightly so. Who knows what might happen in the next few years and any action now, could affect future wives of a king.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Quite rightly so. Who knows what might happen in the next few years and any action now, could affect future wives of a king.

And let's be realistic. The way the young generation of Royals behaves nowadays and seems to get away with it without interference of the more senior Royals seems to strongly indicate that the old days are gone. So why bother with this old, old affair at all anymore? Charels and Camilla are happy together, Camilla behaves like the perfect queen-in-waiting and those people who get to know her enjoy the experience. Why should parliament start changing traditions when IMHO most of the Britons won't care that much but in all probability enjoy having a proper king with a proper queen at his side at their coronation.

 

[rmay286]

I see no reason why Camilla should not be given the title of Queen when Charles ascends the throne. He will be King, she is his wife and the wife of the King is according to tradition, the Queen. It shouldn't have anything to do with perceived moral character or some segments of public opinion. It's not like British monarchs gain the throne on the basis of either.

 

[Rebafan81]

I must Beatrixfan you really crack me up, I love reading your posts.
I think that Camilla should be whatever she wants, you only have to look at Charles and see how happy she has made him. It took him 55 years but he finally looks relaxed and happy. When did you ever see him laugh spontaniously while married to Diana, you see it a lot married to Camilla. I guess I am of the mind that if William and Harry are happy for their father, what right does anyone else have to say anything. IMHO

 

[Duchess Ravenna]

Well, didn't Prince Henrik of Denmark say something like that he thinks it is really unfair that the husband of a queen is not called king?

IIRC, that was the big problem with Lord Darnley and Mary Queen of Scots. He wanted the Scottish Crown Matrimonial, and the title of King, and she didn't want to give it to him. And we all see how well that worked out...

I absolutely agree that it should be Queen Camilla seated beside King Charles III. If Wills comes to the throne and his father never does, well...Camilla can't be Queen Mother since she won't be the new King's mother. So wouldn't it have to be Dowager something or other? I like the elegant Princess Alice solution proposed by some of the posters here.

 

[Madame Royale]

If Camilla is crowned Queen, and outlives her husband, it would be expected that she would be known as Her Majesty Queen Camilla.

Although automatically a Dowager, there seems to be somewhat of an unliking of the style and may possibly prefer not to be known as such (which is something both Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother chose to do. Though Queen Mary also didn't warm to the stye of Queen Mother either and so chose not to bear it).

If Camilla is to be known as HRH The Princess Consort, and outlives her husband, it would then be expected, as seems logical to the situation, that she would be known as HRH Princess Camilla. Like her predecssors before her, she would be a Dowager, though whether or not she would wish to be known as HRH The Princess Dowager is anybody's guess.

 

[branchg]

Like her predecssors before her, she would be a Dowager, though whether or not she would wish to be known as HRH The Princess Dowager is anybody's guess.

There is no precedent for the title and rank of HRH The Princess Consort. If it comes to pass, Parliament would essentially have to remove her right legally to be Queen (she would already be HM The Queen when the legislation is considered) and creating her a commoner as Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor.

At that point, The King, as fount of all honours, would then be free to issue letters patent creating Camilla a Princess of the UK in her own right and declare her precedence to be ahead of all other women of the Realm. If she survived The King, she would not be a dowager anything as she would already be a Princess in her own right.