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  #141  
Old 04-20-2008, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
But, should Camilla become HRH The Princess Consort I will remember your words and I think I will be able to sit back and smile.
Are you so sure? Your recent posts would suggest otherwise...
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  #142  
Old 04-20-2008, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
Well, one never knows. There was no greater point in creating Philip Mountbatten as the Duke of Edinburgh but he was created as such that Camilla may be given a title of her own (which may not be a peerage) so that she may become to be known by her own title.
Actually, there was......he was marrying the British heiress to the throne and needed sufficient title and rank for his children. Although Philip was born HRH Prince of Greece & Denmark (he is actually far more royal in bloodline than The Queen), he reliniquished his titles when naturalized to British citizenship as Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN.

Camilla only enjoys her husband's rank and title, the same as any commoner who marries a Prince of the UK or a Peer of the Realm. She wasn't born with any titles and doesn't need any of her own, outside of her status as a royal wife.
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  #143  
Old 04-20-2008, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
The weird thing is that it's still on the royal family website. Not just the Clarence House one, but the official one. And the wording now is firmer than when they first added it.
Perhaps because the royal staff themselves lacked the ability to clarify these matters and they are reluctant to clarify matters until they receive clear directions to do so. These people do make mistakes. Another example, in the documentary "Monarchy: the royal family at work", it is clearly stated that Prince Edward will inherit the title "Duke of Edinburgh ",but it failed to mention the fact that Prince Charles and his sons should be the lawful people to inherit the title first. I find these information as omission if not misleading.

For Camilla's title, I guess that those royal household members, royal family members, ministers, even the "royal experts" just choose the option of waiting rather than speak directly about the matters. We are the braver people!
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  #144  
Old 04-21-2008, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
Are you so sure? Your recent posts would suggest otherwise...
Well, my dear Madame Royale, we all know that I would prefer to see Queen Camilla rather than Princess Consort Camilla--but your eloquence in your defense of your position was quite lovely and it does indeed make me smile.
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  #145  
Old 04-21-2008, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
Philip wouldn't have been anything at all without such a creation, though. Had that not happened, he would have been Admiral of the Fleet (after 1953, his various ranks before then) Sir Philip Mountbatten until 1957. (Or, quite possibly and quite strangely, but I think it would have been rectified, Admiral of the Fleet His Royal Highness Sir Philip Mountbatten.)
I don't think they use the "Sir" with a Royal Highness, just add the abbreviations of the order of Knightship he received.
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  #146  
Old 04-21-2008, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The marriage was morganatic. His wife was not HRH Princess Edward because the King issued letters patent specifically denying her the right to share her husband's rank. Once that happened, it became law.

Camilla's assumption of a lesser style and rank as HRH The Princess Consort (provided Parliament agrees to remove her right to be The Queen) would also be morganatic. It is not possible for The King to issue letters patent creating her a princess when she is HM The Queen.
That is disputed. The king cannot be peer is pretty clear as a law. But can his wife, who is queen by courtesy of her marriage to him not be a peeress in her own right? What would have happened if Charles had married the current Countess of Sutherland? She is a countess in her own right, would she loose her inherited title?
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  #147  
Old 04-21-2008, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Nobody is saying that she can choose to BE a princess when she's Queen. The issue is whether she can legally be KNOWN AS a princess even though she's Queen. For one thing, presumably Buckingham Palace didn't come up with this "it is intended that she be known as Princess Consort" stuff out of thin air. For another, it isn't illegal to be known as something you aren't as long as you don't intend to defraud anyone. For another, it's still on the royal family website.

The Royal Family > TRH The Prince of Wales and The Duchess of Cornwall > Background

It isn't even "it is intended that" nowadays, it's "she will be known as."
Oh, but on The prince of Wales' webpage it sound this way:

The Prince of Wales - Marriage and Family

"It is intended that The Duchess of Cornwall will use the title HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne."

Interesting, isn't it?
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  #148  
Old 04-21-2008, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
Maybe Charles, upon becoming King, could just phone up, say, the King of Norway and ask if he could make Camilla a Princess of Norway. Then she could style herself "HRH Princess Camilla." That's very far-fetched, though.
No, as foreign titles are not recognized in the UK if the holder is a British citizen.
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  #149  
Old 04-21-2008, 03:24 AM
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Princess Marina was known as Princess Marina, especially after her son married and there was a new Duchess of Kent. I don't know how official the title was, but I remember that's how she was always referred to in the newspapers and on the TV when she was doing her engagements.
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  #150  
Old 04-21-2008, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Oh, but on The prince of Wales' webpage it sound this way:

The Prince of Wales - Marriage and Family

"It is intended that The Duchess of Cornwall will use the title HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne."

Interesting, isn't it?
So what does the Queen know that Prince Charles doesn't? Or vice versa...
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  #151  
Old 04-21-2008, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Princess Marina was known as Princess Marina, especially after her son married and there was a new Duchess of Kent. I don't know how official the title was, but I remember that's how she was always referred to in the newspapers and on the TV when she was doing her engagements.
We had a longer discussion about Marina's title here and I learned after consulting transcripts of discussions from the National Archive at
HO 45/15677
that for naturalized Britons "Foreign titles do not receive official recognition in this country unless and until Royal Licence to use them has been obtained".

There was no Royal licence for Princess Marina. But, as you can read at
LCO 6 7300
there was a long discussion among the advisors of the Crown how to deal with those relatives of the Royal family (descendants from queen Victoria) who held a German or other foreign title but no British but had opted for Britian in WWI. It is clear from this discussion that the title prince/princess in Britain should be reserved to people closely related to the king or queen regnant and that this title/style should signal this closeness.
IMHO this is the reason why both princess Alice and princess Marina were alowed to use the princess-style with their own first name after they were
widowed: even though they could not longer actively take their style form their (late) husbands, they were recognized as close relatives of the souverain by courtesy. Thus "Princess Alice" and "Princess Marina." This would explain the usage of "Princess Diana" as well: she was,a fter all, the mother of a future souverain and could thusly be recogniced by courtesy as a "Princess" according to this definition.
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  #152  
Old 04-21-2008, 04:48 AM
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I understand that, in the case of Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott, she was given such a courtesy style as Princess Alice after her husband's death because she did not wish to be styled as the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. (Her style "Princess Alice" was not created by the letters patent, apparently). In the case of Princess Marina, she was born as a princess that she could carry on using that style after her marriage to the Duke of Kent, so it appears as in the case of HDSH Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. He was styled as His Royal Highness Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gothat upon his marriage to the Queen Victoria (HRH as the sovereign's gift to him) and later officially created as the Prince Consort.
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  #153  
Old 04-21-2008, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
That is disputed. The king cannot be peer is pretty clear as a law. But can his wife, who is queen by courtesy of her marriage to him not be a peeress in her own right? What would have happened if Charles had married the current Countess of Sutherland? She is a countess in her own right, would she loose her inherited title?
No, of course not. For example, Diana was Lady Diana Spencer and became HRH The Princess of Wales with marriage. She no longer used her own style since her married rank and title was superior to her own. With divorce, she lost her style and rank as HRH and technically was Lady Diana, Princess of Wales.
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  #154  
Old 04-21-2008, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post

I In the case of Princess Marina, she was born as a princess that she could carry on using that style after her marriage to the Duke of Kent, so it appears as in the case of HDSH Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.
I believe there is a difference as Marina married after the 1914/1917-decrees which where about the British Royals having foreign titles.

Lady Katherine Brantram, daughter and sister of Greek kings, did not carry on with her Royal name and title after she married a British citizen and became naturalized. She was created Lady Katherine with the status of a daughter of a duke, which is the highest status the souverain could confer in such a situation as Lady Katherine was not a direct descendant of a British souverain, thus she could not be a British princess.

In case of princess Marina it was not necessary as she acquired a British Royal title with her marriage - a title and style she could use. She still possessed that title, so it was just a change of courtesy style she asked for after she was widowed and that's obviously no problem.

With Albert it was different as at that time foreign titles were still recognised.

As for (coming back to topic) Camilla: if the palace believes that the courtesy style of HRH The Princess Consort for the lady titles HM The Queen Consort needs no letters patents, then maybe they are right. But still I believe it will confuse people to no end and in the end those people who support the monarchy are those who stick with tradition and want the wife of the king styled and titled as Her Majesty The queen consort.
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  #155  
Old 04-21-2008, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
No, of course not. For example, Diana was Lady Diana Spencer and became HRH The Princess of Wales with marriage. She no longer used her own style since her married rank and title was superior to her own. With divorce, she lost her style and rank as HRH and technically was Lady Diana, Princess of Wales.
But Diana was not a peeress in her own right, she only had the style of the daughter of an earl. While The Countess of Sutherland is in fact a peeress in her own right. So what happens if she married a HRH?
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  #156  
Old 04-21-2008, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
But Diana was not a peeress in her own right, she only had the style of the daughter of an earl. While The Countess of Sutherland is in fact a peeress in her own right. So what happens if she married a HRH?
I suppose she will retain her peerage but just won't sit in the house. Then, maybe, later, by a special reminder or whatever, her comital title may be passed onto one of the sons or daughters who is not the heir to the throne. How is that ?
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  #157  
Old 04-21-2008, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
I suppose she will retain her peerage but just won't sit in the house. Then, maybe, later, by a special reminder or whatever, her comital title may be passed onto one of the sons or daughters who is not the heir to the throne. How is that ?
But if it is so, then Camilla could be created a princess in her own right as well. Even though she will probably be one day the wife of the king.

It simply had never before been necessary to create the wife of the king a princess. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. Though I'M sad to think they would steep so low when it comes to a lady who has done the RF nothing but pride since she became a member.
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  #158  
Old 04-21-2008, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I believe there is a difference as Marina married after the 1914/1917-decrees which where about the British Royals having foreign titles.
It seems as though Princess Marina remained a Princess of Greece and Denmark in her own right even after her marriage to the Duke of Kent. Following her elder son's wedding, she simply reverted to her own substantive princely title and her late husband's niece the Queen permitted her to be style as HRH Princess Marina the Duchess of Kent instead of HRH the Dowager Duchess of Kent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
But if it is so, then Camilla could be created a princess in her own right as well. Even though she will probably be one day the wife of the king.
Well, as Her Majesty's subject, I do not particularly rate Camilla as any greater than what she was before, perhaps, though I am now supposed to be lower in rank than her since she is now Her Royal Highness. I do think that Camilla wanted to have a quiet life enjoying her country pursuit such as riding, gardening, fox hunting etc rather than attending those numerous functions and receptions that are not her cup of tea so to speak. However, she fell in love with the Prince of Wales ans his first wife died etc, all this had to happen.
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  #159  
Old 04-21-2008, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
It seems as though Princess Marina remained a Princess of Greece and Denmark in her own right even after her marriage to the Duke of Kent. Following her elder son's wedding, she simply reverted to her own substantive princely title and her late husband's niece the Queen permitted her to be style as HRH Princess Marina the Duchess of Kent instead of HRH the Dowager Duchess of Kent.
As I posted before the rule in the Uk at that time was that without a Royal license there would be no certificate of citizenship of Britain including the foreign title. I'm not even sure if there was such a certificate issued for princess Marina. And if so, if the authorities followed the rules or were advised to do it differently.

But: as a close relative of the souverain Marina could be styled as "princess Marina" in order to highlight her personal relationship to the monarch if the monarch agreed. Which was obviously the case. But the same pattern worked for Alice and Diana as well, obviously, even though they were not Royal by birth but added sons to the RF.

(Many thanks to Charlotte1 who investigated further and pointed me to important information. )
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  #160  
Old 04-21-2008, 09:46 AM
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We were supposed to call Princess Alice "Princess Alice" because she did not like the title of the Dowager Duchess of Kent but were not supposed to call Diana "Princess Diana" but "Diana, Princess of Wales" without "the" prefixed to "Princess" according to the customary for a divorced wife of a peer.
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