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  #81  
Old 04-19-2008, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
If crowned Queen, and Charles dies before his wife then Camilla would be HM Queen Camilla. The term Dowager represents the position of the former reigning consort though not necessarily her title.

Camilla would then fall beneath the Queen Consort in the Order of Precedence, as has been the case for all surviving consorts.
Is it this way in Britain? In Russia it was different, if you look at the last Court Calendar before the revolution, of 1917. There first is the Emperor, but second is the emperor's mother, the Dowager Empress and third is the wife of the emperor.

You can find a link to it here:
http://www.riuo.org/SUCCESSION_ENGLISH.pdf
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  #82  
Old 04-19-2008, 05:59 AM
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hi Roslyn

well i think she seems a really nice person and from good reports i have read about her and watching her in my monarchy dvd and how she gets on with people and i have heard she is a caring person and from what i can see of her that is true and yes if she makes charles happy that is excellent. i did watch them get married on the tv and i guess iti s a bit of both Camilla herself and making Charles happy that has made me change my mind. and everyone deserves a second chance to be happy and Camilla deserves our support too.
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Welcome, Lynne

I'm always pleased to read that someone who was a Diana supporter and was against Camilla has changed their mind and come to like her to the extent that you think she should be Queen. I'd be interested to know what changed your mind. Was it just that she makes Charles happy or was it something about Camilla herself that led you to reconsider your views?
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  #83  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Is it this way in Britain? In Russia it was different, if you look at the last Court Calendar before the revolution, of 1917. There first is the Emperor, but second is the emperor's mother, the Dowager Empress and third is the wife of the emperor.

You can find a link to it here:
http://www.riuo.org/SUCCESSION_ENGLISH.pdf
Yes it is that way in Britain.

The Order of Precedence for female members of the British royal family is...

The Queen (whether they be regnant or consort), followed by the Queen Dowager (most recent if more than one).
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  #84  
Old 04-19-2008, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
It sounds fat?.lol.

It's extremely unlikely that Camilla would use the distinction in any title if she outlives her husband, though if crowned Queen, a Dowager she will be.
If Charles predeceased her at present, she would technically lose the distinction of being "The" Duchess of Cornwall and become Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall instead. "The" only applies to the wife of a living Duke, not a widow or former wife. The style of "Dowager Duchess of Cornwall" would only apply if William had an eldest son and became King as there would be a new Duke.

As with Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, The Queen or William V could grant her the distinction of using the princess style as the widow of a son of the Sovereign ("HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall") or grant her a lifetime peerage of her own.

If her husband died after she became Queen Consort, she automatically loses the style of "HM The Queen" and becomes "HM Queen Camilla" as a dowager queen.
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  #85  
Old 04-19-2008, 03:16 PM
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Since I live in the US obviously my opinion will fall in the "for what it's worth" department, but I don't see a problem with Camilla becoming Queen Camilla upon Charles' accession to the throne. From what I've read in this thread, it is obvious any other title will cause a bunch of constitutional problems down the road for any future consort.

But then I don't have a problem with Prince Phillip being King Consort and wonder why QEII didn't allow it. I know the rules are different if the Queen is Queen in her own right and her husband is the consort, still in a constitutional monarchy does it really matter what title the consort has, other than in the court of public opinion?

Would it damage the monarchy greatly for Camilla to be known as Queen Camilla?

Cat
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  #86  
Old 04-19-2008, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
If the ex-queen isn't the mother of the current monarch, she can't be known as the Queen Mother, though. If William IV's widow had been called Victoria rather than Adelaide, then when Queen Victoria came to the throne, we'd have had two Queen Victorias and the older one wouldn't have been the Queen Mother. I don't really see how they could have avoided a Dowager handle in that case.
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  #87  
Old 04-19-2008, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyCat View Post
But then I don't have a problem with Prince Phillip being King Consort and wonder why QEII didn't allow it. I know the rules are different if the Queen is Queen in her own right and her husband is the consort, still in a constitutional monarchy does it really matter what title the consort has, other than in the court of public opinion?

Would it damage the monarchy greatly for Camilla to be known as Queen Camilla?
The title of King is reserved for a reigning Sovereign. Since a King always outranks a Queen, the husband of a regnant Queen must hold a lesser rank and title as a Prince of the UK. Queen Victoria wanted to elevate her husband to King, but Parliament refused to consider it. Instead, Prince Albert was granted the title and style of HRH The Prince Consort.

This title and rank was considered for Philip as well, but he refused it. In 1957, The Queen created him a Prince of the UK in his own right and granted him the distinction of being "The Prince Philip". Since he was already Duke of Edinburgh, his title then became "HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh". Howver, his style remains "HRH The Duke of Edinburgh" as a royal duke.

The issue of Camilla's style and title when her husband becomes King is automatic in law. As the wife of the King, she must be HM The Queen as wives always share their husband's rank in the UK. If Parliament wishes to intervene with legislation, then it would be possible for her to be known as HRH The Princess Consort instead.
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  #88  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Is it this way in Britain? In Russia it was different, if you look at the last Court Calendar before the revolution, of 1917. There first is the Emperor, but second is the emperor's mother, the Dowager Empress and third is the wife of the emperor.

You can find a link to it here:
http://www.riuo.org/SUCCESSION_ENGLISH.pdf
This created some friction in the British court after Edward VII died. Queen Alexandra and her sister (the Tsar's mother) were trying to insist that Queen Alexandra, the King's mother, should have precedence over Queen Mary, the King's wife, because that's how it was done in Russia. It seems that between her bid to remain first lady in the land and her refusal to move out of the big house at Sandringham, she was something of a thorn in Queen Mary's side for many years.
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  #89  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
If Charles predeceased her at present, she would technically lose the distinction of being "The" Duchess of Cornwall and become Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall instead.
That sounds more like the style of a divorcee. Is it the same for a widow and a divorcee?
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  #90  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The issue of Camilla's style and title when her husband becomes King is automatic in law. As the wife of the King, she must be HM The Queen as wives always share their husband's rank in the UK. If Parliament wishes to intervene with legislation, then it would be possible for her to be known as HRH The Princess Consort instead.
I think that if they go the "Princess Consort" route (I hope they don't), they'll just issue a press release stating that "HM the Queen wishes to be known in public as HRH the Princess Consort." It avoids any legal issues and doesn't create any precedents for future monarchs. In the event of any official paperwork talking about her, it would still call her the Queen, etc. Yes, she'd be the Queen, but no law demands that anyone request to be called the Queen. She could issue a request now to be called "Lady Mimblewamble the Third of Heligoland," and I think at least some media outlets would start calling her even that absurd title. Soon the people would follow.
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  #91  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
If Charles predeceased her at present, she would technically lose the distinction of being "The" Duchess of Cornwall and become Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall instead.


I disagree there. If Charles were to pass on before the Queen, William would become Duke of Cornwall and Camilla would be the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall and, by law, Dowager Princess of Wales.
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  #92  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wymanda View Post

I disagree there. If Charles were to pass on before the Queen, William would become Duke of Cornwall and Camilla would be the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall and, by law, Dowager Princess of Wales.
I was always under the assumption that only the son of the Sovereign could be the Duke of Cornwall. The Queen could make William the Prince of Wales, but not Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay.
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  #93  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I think that if they go the "Princess Consort" route (I hope they don't), they'll just issue a press release stating that "HM the Queen wishes to be known in public as HRH the Princess Consort." It avoids any legal issues and doesn't create any precedents for future monarchs. In the event of any official paperwork talking about her, it would still call her the Queen, etc. Yes, she'd be the Queen, but no law demands that anyone request to be called the Queen. She could issue a request now to be called "Lady Mimblewamble the Third of Heligoland," and I think at least some media outlets would start calling her even that absurd title. Soon the people would follow.
You're such an optimist. Why would they go to all that trouble when they could just call her Camilla Parker Bowles? They'll probably still be doing that when she's Queen.
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  #94  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I think that if they go the "Princess Consort" route (I hope they don't), they'll just issue a press release stating that "HM the Queen wishes to be known in public as HRH the Princess Consort." It avoids any legal issues and doesn't create any precedents for future monarchs. In the event of any official paperwork talking about her, it would still call her the Queen, etc. Yes, she'd be the Queen, but no law demands that anyone request to be called the Queen.
They cannot do as you describe without raising serious constitutional issues, including the precedent of 1936 with Edward VIII. She is automatically Queen and any variation requires consent from Parliament.
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  #95  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
That sounds more like the style of a divorcee. Is it the same for a widow and a divorcee?
Yes, except, of course, the widow retains her rank derived through marriage. In Camilla's case, she would be "Her Royal Highness Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall".
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  #96  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:20 PM
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I think we've been round this loop before, but as long as she signed Camilla R on legal documents, what's to stop her calling herself anything she wants to call herself? If Buckingham Palace issues a statement saying that HM The Queen wishes to be known as HRH The Princess Consort, can anyone actually put the brakes on it? Being known as something isn't the same as being something, and it isn't illegal in England to have a "stage name" as long as there's no intention to defraud.
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  #97  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:43 PM
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Thank you for clarifying the issue of consort titles for me, branchg. I knew there were laws regarding the title of consort, I guess I thought the Queen did have a choice in the title of her consort. Evidently it is a bit more complicated than I thought.

Cat
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  #98  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AuroraB View Post
I was always under the assumption that only the son of the Sovereign could be the Duke of Cornwall. The Queen could make William the Prince of Wales, but not Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay.
William would inherit the Duke of Cornwall title from his father. Had HM been Queen when Charles was born he would have been HRH The Duke of Cornwall from the moment of his birth. The PoW title cannot be inherited & only the son of the Monarch can be created PoW.
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  #99  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
They cannot do as you describe without raising serious constitutional issues, including the precedent of 1936 with Edward VIII. She is automatically Queen and any variation requires consent from Parliament.
I'm not talking at all about what she would be. I'm talking about what she would be called. Those are two very different things.

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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
eing known as something isn't the same as being something, and it isn't illegal in England to have a "stage name" as long as there's no intention to defraud.
Indeed. I think that's been proven (though on a lesser scale) with Princess Alice and the Wessex children.
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  #100  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wymanda View Post
William would inherit the Duke of Cornwall title from his father.
Only the son of the sovereign can be Duke of Cornwall. It isn't a normal dukedom in that regard. If Charles died today, William would continue to be Prince William of Wales. (At least I think he would be. I think the Dukedom of Rothesay follows the same rules as Cornwall) Had Charles died before having issue, however, Andrew would have automatically become Duke of Cornwall. It can only be held by a person who is both the Heir Apparent and the eldest son of the Sovereign.

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Originally Posted by wymanda View Post
The PoW title cannot be inherited & only the son of the Monarch can be created PoW.
The second part is incorrect. George III was created Prince of Wales by his grandfather George II three weeks after the death of George III's father, the previous Prince of Wales.
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