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  #481  
Old 07-26-2008, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Dimbleby, page 280 (hardcover edition by Little, Brown & Company): "In private, he confided to one of his friends that though he did not yet love her, she was lovable and warm-hearted, and he was sure he could fall in love with her."
Sorry, but I've expressed warmer feelings for my pets. From a woman's point of view (granted one) that would hurt.
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  #482  
Old 07-26-2008, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
But it's quite interesting to see that image and public reception works not like that. Here's Darwinism in full force and as such, the winner takes it all: meaning king Charles and queen Camilla are going to be a great success!
I'd like Darwin's input. And can you please define 'winner'?
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  #483  
Old 07-26-2008, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
I'd like Darwin's input. And can you please define 'winner'?
The one who's still there when all others have chucked out of the game or been killed.
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  #484  
Old 07-26-2008, 03:59 PM
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There are no winners, two young men were robbed of their mother and a woman was killed in the prime of her life. Charles and Camilla should thank their lucky stars that they are together, healthy, alive and happy.
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  #485  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
Sorry, but I've expressed warmer feelings for my pets. From a woman's point of view (granted one) that would hurt.
Yes, you're right, but Diana decided that this was enough for her. Even at her age of 19 she must have realised that Charles was complicated. She must have realised that he brought a lot of emotional baggage with him, while not being free to purchase a lifestyle that could have helped him to overcome the baggage. So in a way she brought it up on herself - because she believed in dreams instead of evaluate realities. I agree her family should have helped her and I bet the Windsors counted on that because noone wanted that disaster.

Back to Camilla: she is going to be Charles' queen - after all: who in fact is reading these offical statements, who recalls them once Charles ascends to the throne? It was printed back then and it helped to keep things in order, but: nothing is as old as the paper of yesterday and today we have an heir to the Throne and his wife, who will be king and wife some day. And the king's wife is the queen.
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  #486  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
There are no winners, two young men were robbed of their mother and a woman was killed in the prime of her life. Charles and Camilla should thank their lucky stars that they are together, healthy, alive and happy.
Of course you are right. But I meant according to the way media and public perspective works. And thus Diana is old news while Charles and Camilla, as the living inhabitants of that august space of public interest, are able to produce new news.

Okay, they are an aged couple, so it is still interesting to compare "old Camilla" to "young Diana" in pics when it comes to something Diana did once as wife of Charles and Camilla does now. But once there is William's princess and Charles' ascension to the throne, we'll see Diana's pics less and less and not in comparison to Camilla anymore. Because that would be "old news" indeed.
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  #487  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Dimbleby, page 280 (hardcover edition by Little, Brown & Company): "In private, he confided to one of his friends that though he did not yet love her, she was lovable and warm-hearted, and he was sure he could fall in love with her."

I think that Charles was completely at a loss about what love means and that that fact terrified him. He had always been an man caged in by his duties and the expectations of the people surrounding him and probably he only saw marriages like the upper class had them (once you share interests - whatever they are - love will grow if you like each other in the beginning) or like the one of his parents ("I immediately knew this was him" - or so, I imagine...) and couldn't trust the first and didn't find the second. So he tried to settle for the first, not realising there was a third way. But once he realised that, he grabbed it: and Camilla, no matter what she wanted.... Because I doubt she wants to be queen. She loves Charles and she is okay with being his wife and she will be his queen but we have yet to find out how much she sacrificed for Charles. But from my experience of a nice, quiet, comfortable life as a member of polite society (which still exists!) she sacrificed a lot. Camilla had her cake and enjoyed it pre-marriage. But now she is envied the cake she had to exchange for her former one - which is much more decorated but less tasty IMHo.
I think Charles was just uncomfortable saying I love her in public - just like my brother, who really loves his wife but who would never say it in front of strangers.

I don't think he's ever said he loved Camilla in public either and we know he obviously does.

Quote:
Yes, you're right, but Diana decided that this was enough for her. Even at her age of 19 she must have realised that Charles was complicated. She must have realised that he brought a lot of emotional baggage with him, while not being free to purchase a lifestyle that could have helped him to overcome the baggage. So in a way she brought it up on herself - because she believed in dreams instead of evaluate realities. I agree her family should have helped her and I bet the Windsors counted on that because noone wanted that disaster.
They all should have known better. Charles should have known better when Diana was tagging around him and her sister Sarah on dates and Sarah was showing signs of anorexia. Diana should have known better when she saw how heartlessly Charles broke up with her sister Sarah. She should have gotten fair warning of Charles' circle of friends and estimated how well or badly she fit in. The Queen Mother should have known better that for her lady in waiting to testify against her own daughter in a child custody case was bound to scar the children of that custody case (including Diana) forever. Both Diana's father as equerry and her grandmother as lady in waiting should have known the heavy restrictions and isolation that being a member of the Royal Family ensued.

I think they all knew the truth to some extent but they conveniently ignored the warning signs. And they all in one way or another paid the price. But I think now its time to stop making people pay the price.
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  #488  
Old 07-26-2008, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
The one who's still there when all others have chucked out of the game or been killed.
yesbutyesBUT...

...you aren't a winner in the Darwinian sense unless you leave offspring. Which C&C didn't. And this isn't an invitation to start speculating about Tom Parker Bowles's ancestry, just in case anyone has any bright ideas...

So really, Darwin-wise, Diana was the winner, as indicated by all the honours people think she should receive (or have received) in her capacity as the mother of the future king.

Not that that has anything to do with Camilla's title, of course. I still think that Buckingham Palace is planning to be caught by surprise at the accession by the information that Camilla has to be Queen because the King's wife can't be anything else. Then if public opinion is mostly negative, they might try the "but you can call Her Majesty by the unofficial title Princess Consort if you like" subterfuge, and if it's negative enough that a republican revolution looks possible, they might go to the extent of doing the necessary to deprive her of the HM title and then create her HRH Princess Consort in her own right. If people generally seem to be OK with Queen Camilla, I think the "will be known as Princess Consort" nonsense will die a well-deserved death.

The honest thing would be for them to deal with this nonsense now (the most honest thing would have been to deal with it at the time of the engagement or wedding), but I think they're banking on being able to claim that they've been caught by surprise. I hope The Times then points out that even if the royal advisors didn't know all along, the regular contributors to the Royal Forums British forum could have told them.
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  #489  
Old 07-26-2008, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I still think that Buckingham Palace is planning to be caught by surprise at the accession by the information that Camilla has to be Queen because the King's wife can't be anything else. Then if public opinion is mostly negative, they might try the "but you can call Her Majesty by the unofficial title Princess Consort if you like" subterfuge, and if it's negative enough that a republican revolution looks possible, they might go to the extent of doing the necessary to deprive her of the HM title and then create her HRH Princess Consort in her own right. If people generally seem to be OK with Queen Camilla, I think the "will be known as Princess Consort" nonsense will die a well-deserved death.

The honest thing would be for them to deal with this nonsense now (the most honest thing would have been to deal with it at the time of the engagement or wedding), but I think they're banking on being able to claim that they've been caught by surprise.
They cannot claim to be "surprised" because the hoopla started immediately among members of Parliament and constitutional scholars with the announcement of "the intention" for Camilla to be known as Princess Consort when Charles becomes King.

After a few days of questions, including experts noting in the newspapers she cannot be anything but Queen unless an Act of Parliament prevents it, the Lord Chancellor finally stated "it's possible legislation will be needed to tidy things up when the time comes", and Blair commenting, "the question is what her style and title will be upon marriage" and going on to note it will not be a morganatic marriage.

I do not think they will get away with the nonsense of "she is Queen Camilla, but please call her HRH The Princess Consort instead". That would be too ludicruous for a Queen to be addressed as Your Royal Highness and styled as a Princess when she is no longer the wife of a Prince.
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  #490  
Old 07-26-2008, 05:57 PM
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That would be too ludicruous for a Queen to be addressed as Your Royal Highness and styled as a Princess when she is no longer the wife of a Prince.
To people that know the difference. I don't think most people do.
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  #491  
Old 07-26-2008, 06:05 PM
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... Snipped.... Then if public opinion is mostly negative,
I think we all know how fickle public opinion is. In or around 1998 the opinion polls all showed that 'people' thought Camilla should not marry Charles, at the time of the wedding the opinion had changed and the same polls showed support for the marriage, but not for her becoming Queen. The polls were, if I remember correctly Mori and YouGov and were posted on the forum. Even if you question the reliability of the polls, which I do, they did show a change of opinion in a very short time, so given another 3-5 years many more would probably question why. if Camilla is not going to be Queen.

Add to that the cost and IMO, most of UK taxpayers would question the need for legislation to change her title anyway.

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  #492  
Old 07-26-2008, 06:08 PM
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To people that know the difference. I don't think most people do.
Exactly. Most people won't see it as any different from the current situation of "she's really Princess of Wales but she's elected to be known as Duchess of Cornwall."

You can tell people till you're blue in the face that she actually is Duchess of Cornwall whereas there's no way for a Queen to also be a Princess, but I have a feeling it won't matter to most people. I mean, there's got to be a reason why the "will be known as Princess Consort" stuff is still on the websites of the royal family and the Prince of Wales. If the Queen drops dead tomorrow, they're going to be stuck with it, and I assume they know that.
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  #493  
Old 07-26-2008, 08:09 PM
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Add to that the cost and IMO, most of UK taxpayers would question the need for legislation to change her title anyway
Not to mention the other fifteen Commonwealth Realms. Honestly, forcing this situation is a very, very dangerous thing for them to be doing, as it opens the doors to republican movements taking hold.
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  #494  
Old 07-26-2008, 08:38 PM
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I wonder if Camilla wishes to be known as Princess Consort. None of us here would know of course, so assumptions are pointless, but it would be so interesting to know what she makes of it.

Somehow, I can't invision her to be upset by it at all.

One of those unanswerable questions...
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  #495  
Old 07-26-2008, 10:00 PM
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I'll probably be jumped on from an intellectual point of view for asking this question, but, what about Duchess of Lancaster? I'll wait here:
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  #496  
Old 07-26-2008, 10:06 PM
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It would still be morganatic. The title of 'Duke of Lancaster' isn't substantive; it's an honorary tradition recognizing the Sovereign's titular ownership of their source of private income.
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  #497  
Old 07-26-2008, 10:27 PM
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It would still be morganatic. The title of 'Duke of Lancaster' isn't substantive; it's an honorary tradition recognizing the Sovereign's titular ownership of their source of private income.
Honorary or not, the sovereign (of either sex) holds the title Duke of Lancaster. I don't agree with the Princess Consort suggestion. I was, however, pointing out that if you are just going to create a title out of thin air, at least this one could actually come from something that already exists. What is the difference between HRH The Princess Consort or HRH The Duchess of Lancaster?. Both would include the same style, but Duchess of Lancaster can actually be derived from a title that Charles would hold as King.
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  #498  
Old 07-26-2008, 10:49 PM
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Honorary or not, the sovereign (of either sex) holds the title Duke of Lancaster.
The sovereign cannot hold a title from him or herself. The sovereign uses it out of tradition, but strictly speaking there is no Duke of Lancaster, just a duchy.
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  #499  
Old 07-26-2008, 10:52 PM
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There's no Prince Consort current either. The Duke of Edinburgh is a Prince and he is the consort of the Queen, but he is not the Prince Consort.
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  #500  
Old 07-27-2008, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
I wonder if Camilla wishes to be known as Princess Consort. None of us here would know of course, so assumptions are pointless, but it would be so interesting to know what she makes of it.

Somehow, I can't invision her to be upset by it at all.

One of those unanswerable questions...
I really doubt that she's bothered much by the whole debate either, Madame Royale. She seems very happy being the Duchess of Cornwall, and so I'd wager that she'll be satisfied with whatever title Charles and Britain decide to give her when he becomes king. I have a feeling that being married to the man she loves is more important to her than becoming queen ever would be.
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