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  #321  
Old 07-14-2008, 05:28 PM
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I have a hunch that the "princess consort" idea is only a PR line from Clarence House, who I don't believe ever intend to deny Camilla of the title of Queen Consort. When it comes to the point, she will be Queen Consort and that will be the end of the matter. This is just my opinion though. Maybe I'm wrong but I always felt this way from the day of the marriage.
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  #322  
Old 07-14-2008, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
If Charles predeseased Camilla, her title would be HRH Camilla, Dowager Duchess of Cornwall, as William would become the new Duke of Cornwall, right?
The Duke of Cornwall is always the eldest son of the sovereign, so if Charles predeceases HM, William would not be the Duke of Cornwall.
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  #323  
Old 07-14-2008, 10:08 PM
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Really? An interesting new thread would be: If Charles predeceases the Queen, and William cannot be Duke of Cornwall , then what does income the heir support himself through? Charles is pretty much funded through the Duchy, I believe. So back on topic...If William is not eligable for Duke of Cornwall, strike the 'Dowager bit'...HRH Camilla Duchess of Cornwall, if Charles pre-deseaces Camilla while Queen Elizabeth is still alive.
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  #324  
Old 07-14-2008, 10:10 PM
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I can't believe we're up to Part 3 already. I for sure thought this would 6 at the least.


Anywho, she will be Queen and that's that. As has been pointed out many times already, whether Diana died or not, she wasn't going to be Queen. She had been divorced for what, 4 years when she passed? BeatrixFan put it perfectly; the job of Queen Consort was left vacant when they divorced. Whomever Charles married after that would assume that position when the time came. That person is Camilla. People who viruently hate her or people who think the title of Queen belongs to the ghost of a former spouse need to just re-awaken from Dreamland and join the rest of us here on Earth.
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  #325  
Old 07-14-2008, 10:19 PM
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So, let me see if I have this right. If Chales suceeds his mother Camilla will be Queen and, if he predeceases her she will remain Duchess of Cornwall etc. and William will not be Prince of Wales?
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  #326  
Old 07-14-2008, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
So, let me see if I have this right. If Chales suceeds his mother Camilla will be Queen and, if he predeceases her she will remain Duchess of Cornwall etc. and William will not be Prince of Wales?
Yes. PoW and DoC are titles reserved for the eldest son of the Sovereign. That could easily change, of course; if Charles bites it tomorrow, there's nothing but convention stopping the Queen from creating Wills Duke of Cornwall, in which case Camilla would become HRH Camilla, Dowager Duchess of Cornwall. (One retains one's HRH after the death of a spouse).

Point being, there's no law against HM creating William DoC. Should Charles predecease his mother, it would only make sense for him to have his own independent source of income. He has his inheritances, of course, and one can easily imagine that his inheritance from Charles would be substantial (of course, given their position, I'm sure the BRF has everyone's wills worked out in every possible permutation of who dies first. It would probably be significantly more advantageous for Charles to will everything to his mother if he dies first, as she doesn't pay death duties on the inheritance. HM could then parcel out whatever to whomever), but.. where was I? Right: but Wills obviously can't get a 'normal' job, and his salary from the Royal Navy wouldn't even come close to covering the expenses of a Royal.
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  #327  
Old 07-14-2008, 11:15 PM
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According to the Duchy of Cornwall website, the Duke of Cornwall has to be the eldest surviving son of the monarch:

Who will be the next Duke of Cornwall?
The charter establishing the Duchy ruled that each future Duke of Cornwall would be the eldest surviving son of the monarch - and the Heir to The Throne. When the current Prince of Wales accedes the throne, Prince William will become Duke of Cornwall.


Duchy of Cornwall - FAQ's - The Official Website for the Duchy of Cornwall

I think it's the Prince of Wales title that can be conferred on an heir who isn't the monarch's eldest son; it seems from the above that the Duke of Cornwall title was conferred by charter on the eldest surviving son of the monarch as long as he was also the heir.

If that's the case, I assume Camilla would remain just HRH The Duchess of Cornwall.

According to this information at the Prince of Wales website

The Prince of Wales
The Prince of Wales is a title created for the male heir to the throne. There is no automatic succession to this title, but it is normally passed on when the existing Prince of Wales accedes to the throne. The title becomes merged in the Crown and is renewed only by the Sovereign's pleasure. The Queen created Prince Charles The Prince of Wales on 26th July 1958. The Prince can trace his descent through the Tudors to the original native Princes of Wales, though the title's use for the Heir to the English Throne began with Edward II, who had been created Prince of Wales by his father Edward I in 1301.

The Prince of Wales - Titles

the Queen could create Prince William Prince of Wales if Charles died during her lifetime. Then William's wife would be Princess of Wales but not Duchess of Cornwall.

However, if William becomes King and has a son during Camilla's lifetime, the son would become Duke of Cornwall either at birth or at his father's accession, depending on the timing, and I assume at that point Camilla would become Dowager Duchess.
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  #328  
Old 07-15-2008, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
I can't believe we're up to Part 3 already. I for sure thought this would 6 at the least.


Anywho, she will be Queen and that's that. As has been pointed out many times already, whether Diana died or not, she wasn't going to be Queen. She had been divorced for what, 4 years when she passed? BeatrixFan put it perfectly; the job of Queen Consort was left vacant when they divorced. Whomever Charles married after that would assume that position when the time came. That person is Camilla. People who viruently hate her or people who think the title of Queen belongs to the ghost of a former spouse need to just re-awaken from Dreamland and join the rest of us here on Earth.
She was only divorced a year before she died...
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  #329  
Old 07-15-2008, 12:28 AM
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If Charles kicks the bucket tomorrow William could theoretically be made Prince of Wales & Earl of Chester, but not Duke of Cornwall & Rothesay. The next DoC/R would have to be the eldest son of the next monarch, presumably King William V. And yes, Camilla could continue as HRH Dowager Duchess of Cornwall, but I imagine that a better title might be fashioned for her, a la the case of Princess Alice of Gloucester. It would be a nice gesture for King William to make Camilla a Princess in her own right.
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  #330  
Old 07-15-2008, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
The charter establishing the Duchy ruled that each future Duke of Cornwall would be the eldest surviving son of the monarch - and the Heir to The Throne. When the current Prince of Wales accedes the throne, Prince William will become Duke of Cornwall.


True. And it's within HM's power to issue new Letters Patent amending the charter, should it be required.

Quote:
If Charles kicks the bucket tomorrow William could theoretically be made Prince of Wales & Earl of Chester, but not Duke of Cornwall & Rothesay.
See above.
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  #331  
Old 07-15-2008, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada View Post
And it's within HM's power to issue new Letters Patent amending the charter, should it be required.
At the least, it's reserved to the Queen in Council (as all amendments to Royal Charters are), which means it's essentially a government function. At most, it requires an Act of Parliament since it would alter the succession of a peerage. So it's not as easy as the Queen just doing it.
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  #332  
Old 07-15-2008, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada View Post

True. And it's within HM's power to issue new Letters Patent amending the charter, should it be required.
Well, given how creative they seem to be getting with titles these days, it's theoretically possible to do all sorts of things. However, as it stands now, William couldn't inherit the Cornwall title if Charles predeceased the Queen, so even if he was married there wouldn't be the problem of two Duchesses of Cornwall, which makes for less potential confusion.
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  #333  
Old 07-15-2008, 01:43 PM
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She was only divorced a year before she died...
Sirhon, is my memory playing tricks or did she die exactly one year to the day after the divorce?
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  #334  
Old 07-15-2008, 02:05 PM
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The divorce was finalised 28 August 1996. She died 1 year and 3 days later.
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  #335  
Old 07-15-2008, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Really? An interesting new thread would be: If Charles predeceases the Queen, and William cannot be Duke of Cornwall , then what does income the heir support himself through? Charles is pretty much funded through the Duchy, I believe. So back on topic...If William is not eligable for Duke of Cornwall, strike the 'Dowager bit'...HRH Camilla Duchess of Cornwall, if Charles pre-deseaces Camilla while Queen Elizabeth is still alive.
If Charles were to predecease the Queen, Prince William's income would derive from the c.11 million & interest bequeathed him by his mother (i.e. half of the 22 million in her estate on her death) & also the money that (according to Jonathan Dimbleby) Prince Charles & the Queen Mother put into a trust fund annually for both William & Harry from the mid 1980s onwards. In fact Prince William (having passed the age of 25) should already have access to both these sums. Although heaven knows what he spends it on as all his accommodation & staff costs are paid for by his father & the bulk of his travel costs by the taxpayer!
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  #336  
Old 07-15-2008, 09:33 PM
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Yes. PoW and DoC are titles reserved for the eldest son of the Sovereign.
Prince of Wales isn't reserved for the eldest son. Any male heir apparent (a female heir apparent has never happened in the UK, GB, or England as far as I know, but it is possible) can be made Prince of Wales, as George III was shortly after the death of his father, the previous Prince of Wales, by his grandfather George II.
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  #337  
Old 07-15-2008, 11:33 PM
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My bad; I typed in a hurry.

The problem with a female Heir Apparent is the unusual set of circumstances that would need to occur. First you need a Queen Regnant on the throne; EIIR is the first one since Anne. Second, she needs to be--provably--beyond childbearing (years or ability) immediately after giving birth to her female Heir--something like an emergency hysterectomy due to complications in the birth, for example. It's a pity that male-preference primogeniture is still the rule; I imagine that as soon as the political climate in the other commonwealth realms warrants, Westminster will open the discussion. They'd have to do it before William accedes the throne, just in case he has a daughter followed by a son. The political outcry would be horrendous if that were to happen.
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  #338  
Old 07-15-2008, 11:52 PM
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What happened to Victoria?

There's also another circumstance which can lead to a true female heir apparent. Say William has only daughters but dies before becoming King. His eldest daughter would be the heir apparent as nobody could displace her.

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Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada View Post
They'd have to do it before William accedes the throne, just in case he has a daughter followed by a son.
A change in the law would be just as valid before or after his accession, although I agree that sooner is better than later just in case. I don't think the discussion will be opened unless that happens, myself. There's just not any reason other than future possibilities right now. When there's a real princess to look at and talk about, there will be much more reason. That's what happened in Sweden, I think.
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  #339  
Old 07-16-2008, 01:03 AM
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What happened to Victoria?
A bunch of rum & cokes, that's what.

Quote:
There's also another circumstance which can lead to a true female heir apparent. Say William has only daughters but dies before becoming King. His eldest daughter would be the heir apparent as nobody could displace her.
True.. but equally unlikely.

Quote:
A change in the law would be just as valid before or after his accession, although I agree that sooner is better than later just in case.
Granted, but the difficulty is that he's unlikely to accede within the next 20 years or so, and one can safely assume that children will be on their way before then. I'm sure everyone breathed an enormous sigh of relief when he was born; had he been a girl they would have had to open the can of worms in 1981.

Actually, that might have been better, as republican movements weren't as strong then.
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  #340  
Old 07-16-2008, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
A change in the law would be just as valid before or after his accession, although I agree that sooner is better than later just in case. I don't think the discussion will be opened unless that happens, myself. There's just not any reason other than future possibilities right now.
As it is being discussed, it may happen sooner rather than later. Monarchy (Male Primogeniture): 8 May 2008: House of Commons debates (TheyWorkForYou.com)
More princesses to Queen it over us - Times Online

'Unfair' male right of succession to the throne set to be scrapped| News | This is London
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