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  #281  
Old 05-01-2008, 09:23 AM
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I have to admit that I think this is very cut and dried predicament; when Charles becomes King his wife automatically becomes Queen Consort--as the law now stands that is the progression of things. She can't be HRH The Princess Consort until the law changes--and it appears that there is no rush to do so on the part of HMQEII. That tells me that this whole Princess Consort title was a diversions for the Diana-ites out there. Which brings me to my other point--the idea that Camilla, who is not using the style HRH The Princess of Wales out of respect for Diana, should have to take a lesser title than her husband out of respect for Diana yet again (who never would have held the HM The Queen title) really just does not make any sense to me at all. The only scenario I can really think of that is similar is that of King Leopold and Queen Astrid; when she died there was such an outpouring of grief that he ended up secretely marrying Lillian--who become HRH The Princess of Rethy---and whose children were not in the line of succession. That is so insulting, I can not even begin to imagine how I would feel given that situation. I honestly see no reason why Camilla cannot be Queen Camilla--and I have read this thread many times--and it all comes back to one thing:
upon Charles ascension, Camilla automatically becomes Queen. Unless a letters patent is issued prior to QEIIs death. If the letters patent is not issued, then Camilla would be in a situation where she would have to lose her title--which sets a dangerous precedent. So, it all hinges on what happens now--and I think that QEII is waiting it out.

As an aside, I have particularly enjoyed the discussions about the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. In the past I have agreed that she should not have held the HRH, but I have come to the opinion that it was an injustice to her that she did not receive it as her sisters-in-law held it. They weren't divorced, true, but Edward did give up the throne for her.

One more thought--if Camilla does become a Princess of the UK in her own right, as Phillip is one with the Duke of E title, would she receive a title that she could pass to her son?
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  #282  
Old 05-01-2008, 09:33 AM
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As title pass through the male lne, any title Camilla is given in her own right - such as Princess of the UK - would die with her.

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  #283  
Old 05-01-2008, 09:39 AM
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would she receive a title that she could pass to her son?
I should certainly say not!
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  #284  
Old 05-01-2008, 09:46 AM
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As title pass through the male lne, any title Camilla is given in her own right - such as Princess of the UK - would die with her.

Cat
No, it would depend of the Letters Patent for the creation of her own peerage. It would be up to the souverain to decide it. If it was a title in the range of marchioness or above, Tom and Laura normally would be "Lord Thomas Parker Bowles" and "Lady Laura Lopes", as the children of a peeress in her own right have the same rights as children of a peer. See eg. the two daughters of Lady Mountbatten of Burma and her husband Lord Brabourne are styled as "Lady Joanne" and "Lady Amanda" even though their father was just a mere Baron, because they are the daughters of a countess in her own right.
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  #285  
Old 05-01-2008, 09:53 AM
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Perhaps I should have been more clear with my question--there are titles that women have held in their own--The first Duke of Marlborough's daughter inherited her father's peerage and was the Duchess of Marlborough in her own right. Also, Scottish peerages are able to pass through the woman in her own right. Countess Mountbatten of Burma is the daugther of Lord Louis Mountbatten and holds the title in her own right. So, women can hold titles in their own right and if, as part of a "deal" Camilla takes a lesser title then perhaps she would be willing to take a title which would be hers that could pass to her son or daughter. Is this not a possibility?
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  #286  
Old 05-01-2008, 10:00 AM
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Of course this is possible. Depends on the Letter Patents.
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  #287  
Old 05-01-2008, 10:09 AM
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Thank you, Jo! If I were Camilla and I was told I couldn't be Queen, I would be looking at this possibility. Could she be HRH The Princess Consort, Duchess/Countess of Highgrove or something? (the only thing I could think of , sorry, I just needed filler).
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  #288  
Old 05-01-2008, 10:37 AM
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It would be entirely within the gift of The Sovereign (her husband) to decide what titles she would hold and whether they would be hereditary (highly doubtful).
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  #289  
Old 05-01-2008, 01:08 PM
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Why would it be highly doubtful? If Camilla has to give up a title that is rightfully hers to appease irrational minds, then why shouldn't she receive something that is hers alone? I think it is an interesting thought to consider.
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  #290  
Old 05-01-2008, 01:20 PM
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It would be hers alone regardless of whether a hereditary peerage is created. By giving up the title of Queen, Camilla would be created a Princess of the UK in her own right as HRH The Princess Consort.

Unless she strongly desires her son to become a Peer in due time, it seems unlikely to me she would care about having a hereditary title to pass on.
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  #291  
Old 05-01-2008, 01:29 PM
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There is no reason why her son should become a peer through his mother's union. None whatsoever.
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  #292  
Old 05-01-2008, 02:22 PM
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There is no reason why her son should become a peer through his mother's union. None whatsoever.
Thomas Parker Bowles is a Parker from the Earl of Macclesfield-family. It is a very old tradition that if a member of a noble family does special services to the king he is elevated to a rank similar to that of the Head of the family or even beyond that. Just think of Arthur Wellesley...

So why should this old tradition not apply to the step-(and god-) son of the future king?
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  #293  
Old 05-01-2008, 02:27 PM
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Okay, but what service has he done the Queen/Future King/realm?
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  #294  
Old 05-01-2008, 02:31 PM
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Okay, but what service has he done the Queen/Future King/realm?
What do I know? Helped Charles through the emotionally very daring situation of his divorce?

We either accept that the souverain is the "fount of all honours" or not. If so, the souverain may elevate whoever he thinks is worthy to whichever rank. If not, leave it all to Gordon Brown.
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  #295  
Old 05-01-2008, 03:32 PM
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The divorce was accepted by all and life goes on. They are married now, Camilla shares her husband's current rank and title (with the concession to Diana's memory by using her ducal title as her style) and there is no reason why she should be denied the right to be Queen.

Even if Diana was alive today, she was never going to be Queen, so why should Camilla be punished?
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  #296  
Old 05-01-2008, 06:02 PM
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Why do you think they floated the whole 'Princess Consort' title rather than say yes she will be queen?
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  #297  
Old 05-01-2008, 06:18 PM
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I think they were afraid of certain elements that wish to see Diana crowned Queen of the World for Eternity.
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  #298  
Old 05-01-2008, 07:07 PM
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I think they were also afraid of the elements (probably the same ones as above) who were getting rather strident about wanting to see William succeed the Queen and bypass Charles. Perhaps they thought that the prospect of Queen Camilla would rally more people to the Charles-must-step-aside camp. Especially since Diana had hinted in the Panorama interview that that's what she wanted.
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  #299  
Old 05-01-2008, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
No, it would depend of the Letters Patent for the creation of her own peerage. It would be up to the souverain to decide it. If it was a title in the range of marchioness or above, Tom and Laura normally would be "Lord Thomas Parker Bowles" and "Lady Laura Lopes", as the children of a peeress in her own right have the same rights as children of a peer. See eg. the two daughters of Lady Mountbatten of Burma and her husband Lord Brabourne are styled as "Lady Joanne" and "Lady Amanda" even though their father was just a mere Baron, because they are the daughters of a countess in her own right.
I was under the impression that titles passd through the male line by law, that tiles held by females became extinct upon their death. I know there were several titles that became extinct when there was no male to inherit, with the except being the sovereign.

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  #300  
Old 05-01-2008, 07:23 PM
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Why would it be highly doubtful? If Camilla has to give up a title that is rightfully hers to appease irrational minds, then why shouldn't she receive something that is hers alone? I think it is an interesting thought to consider.
"Irrational minds" being the key words here! Why should Camilla be denied the rightful title of Queen just because a bunch of Dianaphites abhor the fact? It seems a bit absurd as Diana would never have been Queen anyway. Elspeth's explanation makes perfect sense, that it is to appease those "irrational minds" who would rather see Charles step aside in favor of William based on Diana's Panorama interview. Even 10 years on the woman holds too much sway in the opinions of others. The British monarchy has survived quite a bit over the centuries, I have a feeling it will survive Queen Camilla!

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