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  #201  
Old 04-22-2008, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
Oh, in that case, will it be permisible for the Duke of Marlborough to call himself "prince" John or whatever instead of the Duke of Marlborough ?
Titles of the Holy Roman Empire never passed through the female line. It's true that the First Duke of Marlborough, John Churchill, was created a prince of Mindelheim in 1705 but as he had no son, the title became extinct. The Dukedom of Marlborough in Britain is one of the few with a special reminder that allows daughters to inherit, thus there is still a Duke of Marlborough, but as he is no male-line descendant of the "Fürst von Mindelheim", this title no longer exists. BTW - Germany does not longer recognize titles anyway.
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  #202  
Old 04-22-2008, 07:43 AM
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Maybe because there is not much happening which feeds their positive feelings for the Royals. There's been no wedding for ages, there are no small kids whose pics can be enjoyed (Lady Louise is kept out of sight and her brother's christening was not even documented by a pic of the queen with him), Charles and Camilla are happily married but both are already quite old and people feel he is still waiting to start working in his "real" job. William and Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie only get negative media coverage... the list appears to be endless... So there really is no big event where people could start to feel for their RF again.

My hope is that William will not only start working as a Royal and bring a bit more "Royal glamour" to the stage, but that he will start his public duties with the announcement of his engagement and then after the wedding will go along into his public life with his wife at his side. Just like Alexandra and Mary renewed the interest in the Danish Royals. Or the wedding of Willem-Alexander with Maxima brought new charme to the Netherlands.
To tell you the truth, the general public here is a lot happier when our royal people are not so glamorous but more dowdy. People seem to have some respect towards the Princess Royal because she is hard working and also not so glamourous but looks more like an old fashioned "dame". People in general do not seem to mind if the Prince of Wales had his staff party at the Ritz or the Prince and Princess Michael went to the SAVOY (though it is closed at the moment for refurbishment) for some function (because those places are not greatly fun though I like the professional service which the Ritz provides. They still use those large keys for their guest bedrooms - a nice change from those American sort of plastic cards. Oh, I like the American Bar, still, at the SAVOY, but I suppose I am getting old. Those places such as the China White and all are far too much for me) but when we hear they were hobnobbing with some terribly fashionable people etc at some very trendy places etc in Knightsbridge etc, then, people start feeling that they are just using their privilege as "royal" to have fun. Many people have to work very hard to have their tables reserved in such places but those people just have it all because they are happened to be "royal". This seems to put a lot of people off nowadays.

Many of us still have such respects towards the Queen because she seems to understand her people's sentiment and appreciate their day-to-day works etc that are, usually, unknown. However, what many now see in the royal matters are fun, glamour and celeb-like life style.
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  #203  
Old 04-22-2008, 07:45 AM
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Having said that, we call the Duke of Leinster, His Grace the Duke of Leinster but he is not a duke here in England but is the Viscount Leinster when he was sitting in the House of Lords. I suppose he prefered much grander style to his lesser style.
The Duke of Leinster is an the Premier Peer of Ireland and as thus his title is recognized in the UK. He has other, lower titles as well. The Viscounty of Leinster is in the Peerage of Great Britian, maybe that's why he uses it in the House of Lords. But of course he is recognized in the order of precedence as a duke.
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  #204  
Old 04-22-2008, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
... BTW - Germany does not longer recognize titles anyway.
Oh, I see. However, my friend in Germany has a friend who still styles himself as a baron. Maybe, this man uses his people's previous title as though he is still a baron, then. Oh, talking about this note, people say that Lady Douro is supposed to be a German princess. I suppose she cannot call herself "princess" here. There are so many Germans who are supposed to be this and that around here.

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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
The Duke of Leinster is an the Premier Peer of Ireland and as thus his title is recognized in the UK. He has other, lower titles as well. The Viscounty of Leinster is in the Peerage of Great Britian, maybe that's why he uses it in the House of Lords. But of course he is recognized in the order of precedence as a duke.
Oh, the Irish peerages are inferior to those of Great Britain. Is the Marquess of Londonderry Irish peerage ?
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  #205  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
Oh, I see. However, my friend in Germany has a friend who still styles himself as a baron. Maybe, this man uses his people's previous title as though he is still a baron, then. Oh, talking about this note, people say that Lady Douro is supposed to be a German princess. I suppose she cannot call herself "princess" here. There are so many Germans who are supposed to be this and that around here.
Germany does not recognise titles anymore but accept the former titles as part of the name. So while Lady Douro does not longer hold the status of a Royal princess like in the old times pre-WWI, when the head of her family was the German emperor and king of Prussia, she was born as Antonia Prinzessin von Preussen (that was her name, not her title). I'm not sure though if her father's marriage to Lady Bridget Guiness is thought to be an equal marriage or if it is considered to be a morganatic marriage - so I am not sure if in case she had been received by officials of the Federal Republic for whatever reason, protocoll would have allowed it that she be called a "Königliche Hoheit". She is the granddaughter of the last Crown Prince of Germany and Prussia, but I think her parent's marriage must be according to the House laws for her to be called by the courtesy title of HRH in Germany. But she is of course in the line of succession to the British throne as she is a great-great granddaughter of queen Victoria: Queen Victoria - Victoria, German Empress and queen of Prussia - Wilhelm II. - Crown Prince Wilhelm - Friedrich Prinz von Preussen - Antonia Prinzessin von Preussen. And another interesting tidbit: Lady Douro's grandmother was the sister of queen Alexandrine of Denmark, grandmother of the current queen Margrethe, so she is a second cousin to the Danish queen.

But you're right, it is difficult with former German titles as part of the name today.
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  #206  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:25 AM
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The Hohenzollern House Laws require equal marriages to remain in succession, but morganatic unions are accepted with lesser styles granted.
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  #207  
Old 04-22-2008, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Hohenzollern House Laws require equal marriages to remain in succession, but morganatic unions are accepted with lesser styles granted.
That's why I'm not sure about the "Königliche Hoheit". German protocoll accepts former Royal styles if the former reigning family considers this member to be a full member with succession rights - for the Prussians this means born from an equal marriage.
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  #208  
Old 04-22-2008, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Germany does not recognise titles anymore but accept the former titles as part of the name...
Oh, I see. In that case, since you are German yourself (I assume), you could change your surname by deed poll to something like Grafin von Regensburg or whatever and nobody can legally challenge you, perhaps ? Here, this sort of things are dealt with very carefully that one can be prosecuted for using such styles. Having said that, here, there is no law to forbid people to use the style of Dr even without a valid PhD. Funny, isn't it ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
That's why I'm not sure about the "Königliche Hoheit". German protocoll accepts former Royal styles if the former reigning family considers this member to be a full member with succession rights - for the Prussians this means born from an equal marriage.
Is this the same in Austria ? How do the German government deal with German nationals whose people once had other styles or titles that were from Czech land or Slovakia or wherever ?

I understand that the descendants of Charles Edward the last Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (a Nazi man) are also in the line of succession to our Crown. Do they use Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as their surname or Wettin ?
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  #209  
Old 04-22-2008, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
It's just stating any relationship yet to have happened with the utmost conviction, is factuallly ineligible and facts are what makes this discussion worthwhile...
Again, though, it was quite evident that I was not stating anything with "the utmost conviction" as I was talking about the possibilities if a deceased person were still alive. Since that is an impossibility, that makes it clear that all things stated were pure prognostication (postgnostication?)
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  #210  
Old 04-22-2008, 07:07 PM
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Erm - would you two be kind enough to sheathe those rapiers and rejoin the conversation the rest of us are having?
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  #211  
Old 04-22-2008, 09:07 PM
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Yes, ma'am...

Quote:
she seems to understand her people's sentiment
On the whole, though she went through her paces to get there, I think. Her Majesty hasn't always been the greatest at reading public opinion and has at times been let down by those employed to avoid any unfortunate press.

And it still happens, as we have seen with Clarence House. Last August comes to mind. I think it lax and expect better for the royal family.
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  #212  
Old 04-23-2008, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
Oh, I see. In that case, since you are German yourself (I assume), you could change your surname by deed poll to something like Grafin von Regensburg or whatever and nobody can legally challenge you, perhaps ? ?
No, of course not. It's very difficult to get permission to change your name and certainly not to one who depicts a higher social status. But when one of Lady Duoro's cousins married a "commoner" they decided to keep "Prinz/essin von Preussen" as the family name, thus her children and her husband share that name now. Or if you have Prinzessin in your name and have an illegitimate child, this child has the same name as you: Prinzessin von...
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  #213  
Old 04-23-2008, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
Is this the same in Austria ? How do the German government deal with German nationals whose people once had other styles or titles that were from Czech land or Slovakia or wherever ?

I understand that the descendants of Charles Edward the last Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (a Nazi man) are also in the line of succession to our Crown. Do they use Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as their surname or Wettin ?
I don't think Austria follows that rule. But then it's a completely different country with own rules and own protocoll. If the Germans from Czech or Slowakia were nobles they can of course keep that part of their names. Normally ex-reigning houses keep their old titles and may even apply for a name change permission if an elder, more senior relative dies and they inherit a higher title. Eg the Margrave of Meissen who is Head of the ex-Royal House of Saxony. Or if an herediary prince inherits from his father, the Fuerst. The Saxe-Coburg-Gotha use the name of Prinz/essin von Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha, Herzog/in zu Sachsen. AFAIK nobody uses the name of Wettin as family name.
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'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #214  
Old 04-23-2008, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
Yes, ma'am...



On the whole, though she went through her paces to get there, I think. Her Majesty hasn't always been the greatest at reading public opinion and has at times been let down by those employed to avoid any unfortunate press.

And it still happens, as we have seen with Clarence House. Last August comes to mind. I think it lax and expect better for the royal family.
That is true. The Queen herself seemed to become aware of that, too, when Diana died. Having said that, what I think about that incident was because she understood that her people whould not like too much of glamour around her family etc, she naturally thought that it was not her place to do anything about the death of Diana. Whereas people were so attached to her because of her charitable works etc and knew what had happened to her because of the Prince of Wales, people felt that the Queen should come out and say something about the death of Diana which to the Queen's mind was not how things were done when she was young etc.

However, the Queen seems to just get on with things, finding her little pleasure in her horses, dogs, a bit of TVs, doing the cross-words etc etc which is the same in the life of the Princess Royal. Whereas other people do all what the rich and famous such as "Posh and Beck" would do. I suppose, going back to the theme of this thread, Camilla and the Prince of Wales are much quieter in this sort of stuff but they have other motives re: the fox hunting and what-not and talk about the preservation of the English rural life but actually they don't seem to be interested in the things that matter most to many less affluent people who live in countrysides. When all those small village post offices are facing the closure and those old pensioners are think worried about how to get their pensions out etc, they seem to focus on this fox-hunting and the organic farming. Yes, I do support the organic farming but at the same time, we all who are able to afford the organically grown vegetables should think about how those people who are not as fortunate as us could access to such good things as the organic vegetables etc.

Anyway, going back to Camilla, people who have met her do tell me that she comes across as such a nice person whereas not many people feel the same about the Prince of Wales. I have never met her, really, apart from seeing her around at the royal meetings at Ascot etc, but she may be really just feeling, 'Oh, I so wish I didn't have to be brought to all this attention". She would have been much happier as a nice county lady doing her own little things. However, she was in love with the Prince of Wales and the Prince of Wales seems to be the sort of person who has to have his way always that she was dragged into this mess.

Again, going back to her title, most people will feel comfortable if the palace authority sticks to what they said innitially when they were getting married. Or, alternatively, give her a title of her own for life like that Hong Kong born lady in Denmark has got. People say about "traditions" but their wedding blessing was not a part of that family nor our country's tradition but it was invented to work around that couple's convenience/needs. Many things that we now call the "traditions" were born in this way, I am sure, and quite often they were invented for the practical reasons. Take an altar rails in the sanctuary of a church. It was not invented to separate a holier place from where people were gathering but it was invented so that the cattles etc that were brought into the nave wouldn't wee in the sanctuary where the Eucharist was celebrated etc. (in those days, there were no pews inside and quite often villagers etc used to bring their animals into their church for they were allowed to sell them if it was raining or what outside.)

Because this Camilla and the Prince of Wales' relationship is a bit different from the conventional situation (though it's not the first one, I am sure), I do feel, for the sake of Camilla as well, that it will be better if she didn't become HM the Queen.
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  #215  
Old 04-23-2008, 04:18 AM
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No, of course not. It's very difficult to get permission to change your name and certainly not to one who depicts a higher social status. But when one of Lady Duoro's cousins married a "commoner" they decided to keep "Prinz/essin von Preussen" as the family name, thus her children and her husband share that name now. Or if you have Prinzessin in your name and have an illegitimate child, this child has the same name as you: Prinzessin von...
Oh, I see. You know a lot of this sort of thing. However, there are no "commoners" in Germany, are there ? My friends in Germany always say that they are German nationals but I am a Queen's subject.
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  #216  
Old 04-23-2008, 04:22 AM
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I don't think Austria follows that rule. But then it's a completely different country with own rules and own protocoll. If the Germans from Czech or Slowakia were nobles they can of course keep that part of their names. Normally ex-reigning houses keep their old titles and may even apply for a name change permission if an elder, more senior relative dies and they inherit a higher title. Eg the Margrave of Meissen who is Head of the ex-Royal House of Saxony. Or if an herediary prince inherits from his father, the Fuerst. The Saxe-Coburg-Gotha use the name of Prinz/essin von Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha, Herzog/in zu Sachsen. AFAIK nobody uses the name of Wettin as family name.
Oh, I see. Maybe, Austrian people are not that bothered about these titles as much as the aristocratic German people are. However, some of the members of the Habsburg family have a lot to do with Bavaria and don't they live there now ? Surely they must have some titles that are to do with Bavaria or its surrounding areas. Are they Germans by nationality or what are they now ?
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  #217  
Old 04-23-2008, 05:37 AM
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.

Again, going back to her title, most people will feel comfortable if the palace authority sticks to what they said innitially when they were getting married. Or, alternatively, give her a title of her own for life like that Hong Kong born lady in Denmark has got. People say about "traditions" but their wedding blessing was not a part of that family nor our country's tradition but it was invented to work around that couple's convenience/needs. Many things that we now call the "traditions" were born in this way, I am sure, and quite often they were invented for the practical reasons. Take an altar rails in the sanctuary of a church. It was not invented to separate a holier place from where people were gathering but it was invented so that the cattles etc that were brought into the nave wouldn't wee in the sanctuary where the Eucharist was celebrated etc. (in those days, there were no pews inside and quite often villagers etc used to bring their animals into their church for they were allowed to sell them if it was raining or what outside.)

Because this Camilla and the Prince of Wales' relationship is a bit different from the conventional situation (though it's not the first one, I am sure), I do feel, for the sake of Camilla as well, that it will be better if she didn't become HM the Queen.
The Hong Kong born lady is HE Alexandra, Countess of Frederiksborg..hehe.

You would be the first participant in this discussion, apart from myself, who has openly supported the alternative I think. And while my reasons are my own, I'm certain much of the general public are under the impression that Princess Consort is what she'll become, even though it's only 'intended'. Providing the alternative and encouraging us to believe it has the support of Clarence House (the fact it's still up on the Prince of Wales Official website) is perhaps not the wisest thing to have done if there's been little, to no real merit in it.

It was a big call to make, and so early in the piece.
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  #218  
Old 04-23-2008, 05:38 AM
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I suppose, going back to the theme of this thread, Camilla and the Prince of Wales are much quieter in this sort of stuff but they have other motives re: the fox hunting and what-not and talk about the preservation of the English rural life but actually they don't seem to be interested in the things that matter most to many less affluent people who live in countrysides. When all those small village post offices are facing the closure and those old pensioners are think worried about how to get their pensions out etc, they seem to focus on this fox-hunting and the organic farming. Yes, I do support the organic farming but at the same time, we all who are able to afford the organically grown vegetables should think about how those people who are not as fortunate as us could access to such good things as the organic vegetables etc.
Please, before saying such things check the Prince of Wales-thread where you can find a lot of things the prince and his wife actively do to help small village businesses survive (pubs and shops, am not sure about post offices but seem to recall there was something), they have gotten involved in a case where the NHS wants to close a bungalow-site which houses disabled people, they help farmers of small farms to market their products at prices which allow them to survive even though their farms are not on the richest soil and are too small to make big bucks out of them.

Of course they can't do anything about the pricing for food, oil etc. that is a political question, but they are constantly revising new projects to keep life going for underprivilege people and especially people living in the countryside without greater mobility. It is constantly reported that people wrote to them and received either encouragement or active help. Plus the prince is constantly thinking up ideas how to earn more money for his charities and is very successful in this, while his wife is being laughed about by the media because she tries to economise with her wardrobe - they call it mockingly recycling.... as if it was wrong to wear good clothes more than once!
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  #219  
Old 04-23-2008, 05:45 AM
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Or, alternatively, give her a title of her own for life like that Hong Kong born lady in Denmark has got.
Alexandra Countess of Fredericksborg née Manley got the title of countess because she divorced prince Joachim and remarried. As long as she was the prince's legal wife, she would have been queen had something happened to the Crown Prince and his son. As long as she didn't remarry, she was HH princess Alexandra of Denmark after the divorce.

We are talking here what should be happening to Camilla when Charles ascedes the throne and she is still his legally his wife. We know already how the RF deal with ex-wifes on divorce. So the ex-princess of Denmark is not a suitable comparison to the wife of The Prince of Wales.
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  #220  
Old 04-23-2008, 05:56 AM
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Please, before saying such things check the Prince of Wales-thread where you can find a lot of things the prince and his wife actively do to help small village businesses survive (pubs and shops, am not sure about post offices but seem to recall there was something), they have gotten involved in a case where the NHS wants to close a bungalow-site which houses disabled people, they help farmers of small farms to market their products at prices which allow them to survive even though their farms are not on the richest soil and are too small to make big bucks out of them.

Of course they can't do anything about the pricing for food, oil etc. that is a political question, but they are constantly revising new projects to keep life going for underprivilege people and especially people living in the countryside without greater mobility. It is constantly reported that people wrote to them and received either encouragement or active help. Plus the prince is constantly thinking up ideas how to earn more money for his charities and is very successful in this, while his wife is being laughed about by the media because she tries to economise with her wardrobe - they call it mockingly recycling.... as if it was wrong to wear good clothes more than once!
Yes, the Prince's Trust is a very good thing and his Duchy Originals things are lovely though many people may say they are far too expensive. I like their hams and sausages etc.

Having said that, since now we know what he was doing behind the scene writing to the certain MPs and what-not in order to pursue his own interests/cause etc, one becomes very suspicious of him. Even some old people whom I visit in those homes who were very fond of the Prince "Charles" (as they call him) before now feel as though they are let down by him.

It is good that people receive those letters from the prince et al but when they attend those numerous functions and events etc, they always write back to the organisers et al and admire their hard work etc. Even some people get OBE and things like that. I know few people who are decorated in this way but some of them are not that hard working according their members that they call such OBEs as "Other Buggers' Effort".
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