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  #161  
Old 01-02-2006, 02:44 PM
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It's funny; we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the Queen would set one standard for titles and precedence and stick to it!

Now we have the Princess of Wales who the Queen let be known as Duchess of Cornwall with one ranking in the official order of precedence and another in the private order of precedence.

Princess Louise is called Lady Louise totally unlike her cousins, Beatrice and Eugenie and the Earl of Wessex's claim to the dukedom of Edinburgh is shakier than at first glance.

To top it off, the Queen messed around Diana's order of precedence too after the divorce.

And to hear the press releases she's trying to simplify the monarchy! I'd hate to see the results if the Queen actually tried to complicate things.
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  #162  
Old 01-02-2006, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejonnhy25
If Chalres dies Camilla is still a member of the royal family and a senior royal. She will still be HRH The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall or if the Queen lets HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall. She would still be an active member carrying on importent roles if she wished too.
yes, if the queen want. because duchess of cornwall must be the wife of the next prince of wales.
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  #163  
Old 01-02-2006, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corazon
yes, if the queen want. because duchess of cornwall must be the wife of the next prince of wales.

Actually if Charles dies before the Queen, Camilla will still hold the title of Duchess of Cornwall etc BUT the next Prince of Wales will NOT be the Duke of Cornwall in all probability.


I say this because only the ELDEST SON of the monarch can be the Duke of Cornwall. If Charles dies before the Queen there won't be a Duke of Cornwall until William is king and has a son.


However the Queen could create William Prince of Wales at same stage after the death of his father.


Camilla takes her titles from her husband and therefore the Queen doesn't need to give her a title at all if Charles dies first. She keeps the titles she has but may need to add something like Dowager to indicate that she is the widow of the previous holder.


Camilla's titles have nothing to do with her being the mother of a future king but only those of the wife a present Prince etc.
  #164  
Old 01-02-2006, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raia
she maybe the future queen but i will never call her by it, in my eyes she will never be my queen and i dont think most the country will either. the UK has accept the fact there married but you see any poll thats done the UK all of them show we will never accept her being Queen and i really cant see that changing. The only people ive notice that dont mind her being queen is mainly people from other countries where she wont be there queen. in my opinion she is just a selfish lady who couldnt keep her hands of someone elses husband if she loved charles as much as she said she wouldnt of married someone else, charles is just as bad, i hate to see the day when he becomes king and if he makes her queen it'll be a sad day


When I was in England in June/July of the 200 or so people I asked about Camilla not one was against her becoming Charles' wife and the vast majority spoke highly of her and wanted her to be Princess of Wales (thought that it was stupid she wasn't using that title) and would be happy to have her as their Queen.


Now 200 people or so isn't many and I never thought it was a poll or anything - they were just conversations I struck with locals in shopping centres, pubs etc were having about the future of the country and their feelings about Diana (most were saying they were embarassed at their reaction to her death and that they had got caught up in the media hysteria), Camilla, Charles and the RF.


All of them said they discounted the polls because they know absolutely no-one who has ever been polled and in most instances know no-one who agrees with the polls.


I found it interesting that I didn't find a single Pom who felt that they shouldn't have married or that she shouldn't be Queen as from the polls I had expected to find the vast majority of people I spoke to firmly against both.
  #165  
Old 01-02-2006, 04:39 PM
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I think that in the event of Charles dying before the Queen, the Queen would have to create William Prince of Wales but whether she'd make him Duke of Cornwall or not would remain to be seen. He won't be the eldest son of a monarch as you rightly say Chrissy.

Nowadays women aren't using the Dowager title so that's why I think in that situation the Queen would use the Marina and Alice cases as a precedent to follow.
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  #166  
Old 01-02-2006, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
It's funny; we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the Queen would set one standard for titles and precedence and stick to it!

Now we have the Princess of Wales who the Queen let be known as Duchess of Cornwall with one ranking in the official order of precedence and another in the private order of precedence.

Princess Louise is called Lady Louise totally unlike her cousins, Beatrice and Eugenie and the Earl of Wessex's claim to the dukedom of Edinburgh is shakier than at first glance.

To top it off, the Queen messed around Diana's order of precedence too after the divorce.

And to hear the press releases she's trying to simplify the monarchy! I'd hate to see the results if the Queen actually tried to complicate things.

I do think that she has left the situation as it is this way so that in the future the full titles may be used if the person wants to do so/or needs to do so.

E.g. if she had issued Letters Patent denying Louise the title of Princess and then an accident happened and she became closer to the throne new ones would have to be issued to give the title back to her or if in later life she takes up full royal duties like her father rather than follows her Philip's cousins then she has the title still there to be used without a fuss.
  #167  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
It's your choice whether to call her a princess, of course, but that doesn't mean she isn't one. She's HRH the Princess of Wales, although she's using her HRH the Duchess of Cornwall title for, no doubt, a number of reasons. You're perfectly free to say you don't think she should have any titles, but you're incorrect to say that she isn't a princess. She's Princess of Wales by virtue of being the wife of the Prince of Wales.
Regardless of what their individual style or title is, Camilla, Sophie, Brigitte, Katharine and Marie-Christine are ALL princesses of the UK and Royal Highnesses by virtue of their marriages to princes of the UK.

They take their style, by custom, by their husband's peerage, if any. Prince Michael of Kent has no peerage, so his wife is HRH Princess Michael of Kent, which would be the case of all of the current spouses if their husbands also had no peerages.

Camilla is Princess of Wales, but has been styled as Duchess of Cornwall at her request by the Queen. She still holds all of her husband's titles and is a princess of the UK through marriage, regardless of what she is called or styled as.
  #168  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:21 PM
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Marina was born a princess of Greece & Denmark and was always styled "HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent" after her marriage by permission of George V, George VI and The Queen. The Sovereign can decide whether to recognize any foreign title of rank or style in her realm, which she did with Princess Marina.

Alice was never officially "Princess Alice" because she was Lady Alice Montagu-Scott as the daughter of a Duke and HRH The Duchess of Gloucester after her marriage to Prince Henry. However, the Queen gave permission for Alice to assume this title after Prince Richard married to distinguish her from the new Duchess and to acknowledge her service to the nation and Crown.
  #169  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I think that in the event of Charles dying before the Queen, the Queen would have to create William Prince of Wales but whether she'd make him Duke of Cornwall or not would remain to be seen. He won't be the eldest son of a monarch as you rightly say Chrissy.

Nowadays women aren't using the Dowager title so that's why I think in that situation the Queen would use the Marina and Alice cases as a precedent to follow.
The Queen would have to issue letters patent changing the grant of the Dukedom of Cornwall to be the heir to the throne only, regardless of whether the heir is the eldest son of the Sovereign.

Since this would be rather dicey (is the heir allowed to be a female and hold the dukedom in her own right?), I doubt William would ever be Duke of Cornwall if Charles died before becoming King.

Camilla would still be HRH The Duchess of Cornwall in the event of Charles' death because there would no other holder of the title. She could retain this style and title until William became King and his eldest son was born and then assume another style or title granted by the Sovereign.
  #170  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:35 PM
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Are you sure about Alice? She was listed in the Court Circular as Princess Alice.
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  #171  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:36 PM
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Have a look at the last sentence of branchg's post; that explains why she was known as Princess Alice after her son became Duke.
  #172  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:38 PM
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Yes I know. But in the first line branchg said, "Alice was never officially "Princess Alice" " but surely she must have been to have been listed as such in the Court Circular?
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  #173  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
It's funny; we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the Queen would set one standard for titles and precedence and stick to it!

Now we have the Princess of Wales who the Queen let be known as Duchess of Cornwall with one ranking in the official order of precedence and another in the private order of precedence.

Princess Louise is called Lady Louise totally unlike her cousins, Beatrice and Eugenie and the Earl of Wessex's claim to the dukedom of Edinburgh is shakier than at first glance.

To top it off, the Queen messed around Diana's order of precedence too after the divorce.

And to hear the press releases she's trying to simplify the monarchy! I'd hate to see the results if the Queen actually tried to complicate things.
The Queen really HAS messed things up! There should be no question on any of these matters because that's the way royal house rules work, but she has allowed all kinds of exceptions, winks and nods to the normal rules.

Yikes!
  #174  
Old 01-02-2006, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Have a look at the last sentence of branchg's post; that explains why she was known as Princess Alice after her son became Duke.
Which, again, is the Queen's perogative as Fount of Honour, but she should have issued letters patent formally granting Alice the style and title of a princess of the UK in her own right.
  #175  
Old 01-02-2006, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
The Queen would have to issue letters patent changing the grant of the Dukedom of Cornwall to be the heir to the throne only, regardless of whether the heir is the eldest son of the Sovereign.

Since this would be rather dicey (is the heir allowed to be a female and hold the dukedom in her own right?), I doubt William would ever be Duke of Cornwall if Charles died before becoming King.

Camilla would still be HRH The Duchess of Cornwall in the event of Charles' death because there would no other holder of the title. She could retain this style and title until William became King and his eldest son was born and then assume another style or title granted by the Sovereign.
She wouldn't need to assume another style or title granted by the Sovereign.

Just as the widow of any other title in the peerage continues to use that style and title after the death of their spouse so would Camilla.
  #176  
Old 01-02-2006, 08:30 PM
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The Queen have permission to Alice to officially stlye herslef HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of G. But she was not The Princess Alice. The Dukedom of Cornwall passes from father to son. If Charles dies the hereditary titles go down to william. He would automatically become Duke of Cornwall. It would be up to the Queen to decide when to make him Prince of Wales. So there would be a problem with Camilla if William were married. So she might become HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall or the Queen might give her a new title completely.
  #177  
Old 01-02-2006, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejonnhy25
The Queen have permission to Alice to officially stlye herslef HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of G. But she was not The Princess Alice. The Dukedom of Cornwall passes from father to son. If Charles dies the hereditary titles go down to william. He would automatically become Duke of Cornwall. It would be up to the Queen to decide when to make him Prince of Wales. So there would be a problem with Camilla if William were married. So she might become HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall or the Queen might give her a new title completely.
The original grant of the Dukedom states it can only be held by the Sovereign's eldest son and heir to the throne, so it does not pass automatically by bloodline to the next male heir. It is automatic only to the eldest son of the Sovereign at any one time.

William would likely be created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester by The Queen after a suitable mourning period as the new heir to the throne. He could not be Duke of Cornwall and his wife would become Princess of Wales.

Camilla would probably be granted the title and style of Princess Camilla as the widow of a Prince of Wales.
  #178  
Old 01-02-2006, 08:48 PM
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No I am pretty sure that the Duchy of Cornwall is a hereditary title. I am almost certain of it. It would go directly to William. I might be wrong but I am pretty sure.
  #179  
Old 01-02-2006, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I've just found Camilla's full title;

Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland
Hey Guys,
I'm still stuck on Camilla's title as a princess. I've noticed that she has just about every peerage ranking except for one. Are the ranks 'Marquess' and 'Marchioness' still used today or am I way off the mark? Or is it that it just doesn't apply to the Windsors? I just always thought that a marquess was heir to a dukedom. Somebody please school me!
  #180  
Old 01-02-2006, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejonnhy25
No I am pretty sure that the Duchy of Cornwall is a hereditary title. I am almost certain of it. It would go directly to William. I might be wrong but I am pretty sure.

Where you are getting confused is that normally it appears to be inherited - e.g. 1841 the instant Queen Victoria had her son he was Duke of Cornwall, 1901 the instant she died Edward's son became Duke of Cornwall, the same thing happened in 1910 - George V's son instantly became Duke of Cornwall and in 1952 when George VI died Charles instantly became Duke of Cornwall BUT

each of these holders was the ELDEST SON of the monarch.


Go back to George II and George III and we have a different situation and it is the one we have as the precedent for the titles of William IF Charles dies while the Queen still lives.

George II's son was Duke of Cornwall et. al BUT he died before his father. George II created his grandson, later George III, Prince of Wales BUT George III never held the title Duke of Cornwall because he was never the eldest son of the monarch.


That is why the argument is that IF Charles dies before the Queen William will NOT be Duke of Cornwall.

However he will inherit the title the instant Charles becomes king and will be known as the Duke of Cornwall for a period of time before becoming Prince of Wales, assuming that Charles gives him that title.
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