The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #101  
Old 10-04-2005, 08:38 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,276
Thanks

Thanks Mapple and branchg.

Your knowledge and contributions are much appreciated.

:) W
__________________

__________________
  #102  
Old 10-04-2005, 08:45 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
How does the Lancaster title as a susidiary title for the monarch differ from the Cornwall title that is a subsidiary title for the Prince of Wales?

Or, as Warren says, is this opening up another can of worms?

edit: Below is britannica.com's explanation of the Duchy. I find it fascinating.
It doesn't explain how the two duchies, Cornwall and Lancaster, are different though. So I'm still confused why Camilla can't be known as the Duchess of Lancaster upon Charles' accession.
The Dukedom of Cornwall is not a subsidiary title. It is automatically held by the Sovereign's eldest son and heir to the throne. The title "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" requires a new grant by the Sovereign once the title merges with the Crown (usually when the current holder assumes the throne).

For example, Charles is currently "HRH Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Chester". When he becomes King, William will automatically become "HRH the Duke of Cornwall" and "HRH the Prince William, Duke of Rothesay". At Charles' discretion, a new grant of "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" would be given to William as the new heir to the throne.

The Dukedom of Lancaster is a peerage that merged with the Crown centuries ago. The difference is the dukedom is a holding of the Crown alone, therefore, it can never be granted to anyone other than the Sovereign.
__________________

__________________
  #103  
Old 10-08-2005, 08:51 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,350
Henry VII was the leader of the House of Lancaster who won the Wars of the Roses over the House of York.

With regard to the monarch using the title Duke/Duchess of Lancaster I do think I remember reading the Queen Victoria used the title Duchess of Lancaster when travelling incognito through Europe on occasions.

The monarch's main personal income still comes from the Duchy of Lancaster estates which is another reason why people argue that the monarch is also the Duke of Lancaster. It is this income that provides her wealth while the Civil List is the cost of running the monarchy.

Should the monarchy be abolished the House of Windsor would still hold the estates of the Duchy of Lancster - unless the abolition was also to remove the rights of hereditary peerages to continue to hold their estates and to use their incomes for their personal gains. However the Civil List would be transferred to the running of the presidency or whatever was to replace the monarch as Head of State.
__________________
  #104  
Old 10-17-2005, 11:32 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57
Should the monarchy be abolished the House of Windsor would still hold the estates of the Duchy of Lancster - unless the abolition was also to remove the rights of hereditary peerages to continue to hold their estates and to use their incomes for their personal gains. However the Civil List would be transferred to the running of the presidency or whatever was to replace the monarch as Head of State.
Interesting point. If Britian becomes a republic, they could follow Germany's lead and abolish all sovereign kingdoms in addition to the peerage. In that case, the Queen could become plain old "Elizabeth Mountbatten-Windsor, Duchess of Lancaster", similar to "Georg-Freidrich, Prince von Hohenzollern" is in Germany today.
__________________
  #105  
Old 10-27-2005, 05:13 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 16
She could also attempt to sue the government for all her estates back again. Or maybe just the 3bn pounds of their worth.

I believe the Greek Royal House attempted it when they were outsed.

Besides, the great house of Windsor has decades left in it yet.
__________________
  #106  
Old 10-27-2005, 05:15 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Re:

Quote:
I believe the Greek Royal House attempted it when they were outsed
Thats a tricky one. Constantine never abdicated and he is still a King.
__________________
  #107  
Old 10-27-2005, 05:28 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Thats a tricky one. Constantine never abdicated and he is still a King.
But then again, it may have been the Italian Royal House.
I always mix them up.

__________________
  #108  
Old 10-27-2005, 05:45 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
I have been having a think about this and a press release along these lines might make things clear if Charles & Camilla marry.

"In accordance with Letters Patent signed on ??/??/???? HM the Queen in accordance with the wishes of the Prince of Wales & Ms Parker-Bowles agrees to the bride being known, after the solemnization of the marriage, as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. The bride will remain entitled to share in all the styles & titles of His Royal Highness but, in recognition of the life & work of Diana, Princess of Wales will not use or be known by the title of Princess of Wales."

What do other members think.
I think you could profitably go into business as a clairvoyant!

(except that it was done without Letters Patent, of course)
__________________
  #109  
Old 10-27-2005, 06:19 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I think you could profitably go into business as a clairvoyant!

(except that it was done without Letters Patent, of course)
And that is a mighty big exception! To issue the letters patent described would be to deny Camilla her rightful title and rank as Princess of Wales in law, making the marriage morganatic and requiring an Act of Parliament confirming she could not succeed as Queen Consort.
__________________
  #110  
Old 10-27-2005, 06:23 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Thats a tricky one. Constantine never abdicated and he is still a King.
In law, Constantine is not King because the Hellenic Republic was created by popular referendum in which the people rejected the monarchy as a form of government in favor of a parliamentary democracy.

By tradition and protocol among the royal houses, Constantine is granted the courtesy of his rank and title, but not precedence, as he no longer reigns. For all practical purposes, he is no longer King of the Hellenes except as a style.
__________________
  #111  
Old 12-02-2005, 11:38 AM
Josefine's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: , Sweden
Posts: 9,164
when charles becomes king can he decide what camilla will be called
  #112  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:49 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Thats a tricky one. Constantine never abdicated and he is still a King.
I agree Sam! He is still technically King...Sorry, I know, off topic...

From Wikipedia:
Constantine was not formally exiled nor stripped of his property or citizenship after the referendum, but he was strongly discouraged from returning to Greece, and did not return until February 1981, and then only for the funeral of his mother, Queen Frederika. There were also legal disputes with the Greek state, since Constantine was unable or unwilling to pay the heavy taxes on his property in Greece. In the early 1990s Constantine started appearing more in the Greek media. In 1992 he concluded an agreement with the conservative government of Constantine Mitsotakis, ceding most of his land in Greece to a non-profit foundation in exchange for the former palace of Tatoi Palace in Athens and the right to export a large number of movables from Greece.
__________________
  #113  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:50 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,531
She will be Queen. I think that has been very clearly established by current law...

She has the use of all the female version titles to Charles's male versions...including Princess of Wales.
__________________
  #114  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:50 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
LOL. That came back! It would be wrong for Pavlos to use the King title and I sincerely hope he doesn't.
__________________
  #115  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:52 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
LOL. That came back! It would be wrong for Pavlos to use the King title and I sincerely hope he doesn't.
Absolutely...I agree 100%... :)

I just wanted to show my support on your post Sam, that is why I printed that information... :)
__________________
  #116  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:54 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Duly Noted Darling.
__________________
  #117  
Old 12-02-2005, 02:32 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josefine
when charles becomes king can he decide what camilla will be called
I think it will be a joint decision with Camilla.:)
__________________
  #118  
Old 12-02-2005, 03:08 PM
Princejohnny25's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: , Antarctica
Posts: 2,033
The safest way is for her to become HM Queen Consort. HRH Princess Consort makes it confusing and degrading. Best to stick with tradition. When the engagment was first announced people were mad that she was going to be HRH but now they have accepted her and see what a great royal she is. I think the same will happen when she is Queen.
__________________
  #119  
Old 12-02-2005, 07:26 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josefine
when charles becomes king can he decide what camilla will be called
No he cannot, because Parliament is the sole arbitrator of the law, not the Crown. To allow Camilla to be HRH The Princess Consort requires legislation to be passed in the UK (and the Crown Commonwealth nations), in which it is stated she will not hold the style, title and rights of Queen Consort.

Once passed, Charles could then issue letters patent granting Camilla the title and style of HRH The Princess Consort of the UK with precedence before all other princes and princesses of the realm, similar to what was done in 1957 for Prince Philip.

This is the only way Camilla could assume the title of Princess Consort.
__________________
  #120  
Old 12-02-2005, 08:37 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Well, Buckingham Palace can announce that HM Queen Camilla has elected to be known as HRH the Princess Consort, and I don't see what anyone could do about it. As far as I understand the law, the only prohibition on calling yourself something other than your legal name is when there's some sort of nefarious intent.
__________________

__________________
Closed Thread

Tags
camilla, duchess of cornwall, princess consort, queen consort, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Princess Madeleine, Current Events Part 3: August 2004 - June 2005 Josefine Current Events Archive 279 06-26-2005 08:56 PM
Royal Family of Belgium Part 2 Alexandria Current Events Archive 190 03-30-2005 11:56 AM
Prince Felipe and Princess Letizia, Current Events Part 3: October - December 2004 Alexandria Current Events Archive 274 12-04-2004 08:11 AM
King Carl XVI Gustaf and Queen Silvia, Current Events Part 1: November 2002-June 2004 Josefine Current Events Archive 300 06-12-2004 08:13 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events dutch royal history fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta cristina infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg ottoman pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince joachim prince laurent prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess elisabeth princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit wedding william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:13 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]