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  #61  
Old 02-23-2005, 04:57 PM
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Given that we're talking about the Supreme Governor of the church here (as Charles will be if the CofE is still the established church when he becomes king, I think we're dealing with the integrity at the very core of the church. I think if they go ahead and crown Camilla queen after a civil marriage and if Andrew Parker Bowles is still alive, people will be very justified in asking about the basis on which the church expects ordinary people to behave in accordance with its teachings when it's prepared to turn such a very blind eye to the antics of its SUpreme Governor.

If Andrew Parker Bowles is no longer alive and if Charles and Camilla have a church service of marriage at that point, the barrier to her becoming queen is no longer there. I know it sounds hard to talk about things in terms of the death of another person, but that's realistically what the situation is. Since we're dealing with people in the 50s and 60s here, I don't think it's unrealistic to consider the possibility that one or more of them might not live for another 30 years. I certainly wasn't intending to suggest that anyone try to get Andrew Parker Bowles out of the way. In fact, I think that if he does predecease Charles and Camilla, however natural his death was, there'd be all sorts of speculation about how he'd been murdered, just like with Diana.
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  #62  
Old 02-23-2005, 05:05 PM
susan alicia's Avatar
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I know you were not suggesting that someone would actively want him out of the way, I just find the subject embarressing and there are not many things I find embarressing to talk about.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Given that we're talking about the Supreme Governor of the church here (as Charles will be if the CofE is still the established church when he becomes king, I think we're dealing with the integrity at the very core of the church. I think if they go ahead and crown Camilla queen after a civil marriage and if Andrew Parker Bowles is still alive, people will be very justified in asking about the basis on which the church expects ordinary people to behave in accordance with its teachings when it's prepared to turn such a very blind eye to the antics of its SUpreme Governor.

If Andrew Parker Bowles is no longer alive and if Charles and Camilla have a church service of marriage at that point, the barrier to her becoming queen is no longer there. I know it sounds hard to talk about things in terms of the death of another person, but that's realistically what the situation is. Since we're dealing with people in the 50s and 60s here, I don't think it's unrealistic to consider the possibility that one or more of them might not live for another 30 years. I certainly wasn't intending to suggest that anyone try to get Andrew Parker Bowles out of the way. In fact, I think that if he does predecease Charles and Camilla, however natural his death was, there'd be all sorts of speculation about how he'd been murdered, just like with Diana.
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  #63  
Old 02-23-2005, 09:23 PM
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Creepy thoughts. Lets get off this topic.
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  #64  
Old 02-24-2005, 12:11 PM
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I agree, this is beyond creepy!! The man has moved on with his life and is remarried. Leave him in peace.
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  #65  
Old 09-03-2005, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
When Charles is king, William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall, so Camilla can't use the title Duchess of Cornwall. The title Duchess of Lancaster would be available for her, though.
In the latter case Charles will have to create Camilla a duchess in her own right.
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  #66  
Old 09-03-2005, 06:25 PM
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He wouldn't have to if she used the Duchess of Lancaster title in the same way she's using the Duchess of Cornwall title now.
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  #67  
Old 09-03-2005, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
He wouldn't have to if she used the Duchess of Lancaster title in the same way she's using the Duchess of Cornwall title now.
Charles is the Duke of Cornwall now, but he won't be the Duke of Lancaster upon his accession. This peerage title merged in the Crown long ago, and the British monarch cannot be a peer.
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  #68  
Old 09-03-2005, 07:58 PM
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According to the Duchy site, the Queen is referred to as the Duke of Lancaster when she's there on Duchy business. If Charles wanted to create Camilla Duchess of Lancaster when he becomes king, I assume it would make more sense than creating her Duchess of anything else.

Although I stll think she's going to end up being Queen assuming the present reign goes on for a few more years.
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  #69  
Old 09-03-2005, 08:37 PM
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As a lot of people have said, by the time Charles becomes King, the Princess Consort title for Camilla that they're saying she's going to be given now will probably be Queen since there really won't be anyone to say otherwise. Nothing anyone says here will change that.
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  #70  
Old 09-04-2005, 01:17 AM
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I agree Lisele, as soon as Prince Charles is king, he give her the title.
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  #71  
Old 09-04-2005, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry's polo shirt
I agree Lisele, as soon as Prince Charles is king, he give her the title [of Queen].
The moment Charles become King, Camilla becomes Queen. The title of Queen can only be taken away, or denied, by legislation of the Parliament.
.
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  #72  
Old 09-04-2005, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
According to the Duchy site, the Queen is referred to as the Duke of Lancaster when she's there on Duchy business. If Charles wanted to create Camilla Duchess of Lancaster when he becomes king, I assume it would make more sense than creating her Duchess of anything else.

Although I stll think she's going to end up being Queen assuming the present reign goes on for a few more years.
The title of 'Duke of Lancaster' has no legal standing in the United Kingdom, it is nothing more than a locally used style for the British monarch. The Lord Chancellor stated in the Buckhurst Peerage Case (1876) that 'the fountain and source of all dignities cannot hold a dignity from himself. The dignity... terminates, not by virtue of any provisions in its creation but from the absolute incapacity of the sovereign to hold a dignity.'

I concur, it is likely that Camilla will end up as the Queen Consort. But there is an ecclesiastical problem with her being crowned as you pointed out above.
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  #73  
Old 09-04-2005, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
According to the Duchy site, the Queen is referred to as the Duke of Lancaster when she's there on Duchy business. If Charles wanted to create Camilla Duchess of Lancaster when he becomes king, I assume it would make more sense than creating her Duchess of anything else.

Although I stll think she's going to end up being Queen assuming the present reign goes on for a few more years.
Camilla cannot be anything but Queen Consort when Charles becomes King, unless Parliament (and the Commonwealth Governor-Generals) all agree to pass legislation stating she will be known as "HRH the Princess Consort" without the rights and dignities of Queen. In my opinion, this will only happen if the Queen dies within the next few years and public sentiment remains strongly against Camilla becoming Queen Consort.

Lancaster is a feudal spoil of war merged with the Crown as the historical holder of the Duchy of Lancaster. The Crown is always "Duke of Lancaster" in the duchy by tradition, but the title of King or Queen always take precedence over all other styles and dignities. Camilla could not be "Duchess of Lancaster" because there is no separate dukedom, it is a style associated with the Sovereign alone.
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  #74  
Old 09-04-2005, 01:59 PM
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So the speculations about whether Wallis Simpson might be called Duchess of Lancaster if she married Edward morganatically were impossible ones?

I wonder what Stanley Baldwin and Alec Hardinge would have thought of the proposal of the title "Princess Consort" for Mrs Simpson back then.

I think we're pretty much all agreed (with a few wistful holdouts) that as long as the Queen lives for another few years and Charles and Camilla both outlive her, we'll be looking at a Queen Consort, not a Princess Consort, to follow, regardless of what the Royal Family website is claiming.
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  #75  
Old 09-04-2005, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
So the speculations about whether Wallis Simpson might be called Duchess of Lancaster if she married Edward morganatically were impossible ones?

I wonder what Stanley Baldwin and Alec Hardinge would have thought of the proposal of the title "Princess Consort" for Mrs Simpson back then.

...
In theory it is possible to revive a late 17th Century precedent when William, the son of Princess Anne and Prince George of Denmark, was styled 'Duke of Gloucester' despite the fact that he had not been actually created a duke. But the press would have a field day with such an absurd and awkward arrangement.
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  #76  
Old 09-04-2005, 03:20 PM
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i dont know much about the history of titles like many here, but all i have to say on the matter is i hope she doesnt become Queen thats the last thing i want her known as Princess consort would have to do, if she become Queen i dont think it'll go down well with the British people, yes there have been polls in the newpapers saying shes more accepted now but theres also polls that nearly everyone says she will never be accepted as our Queen. if the Queen lives as long as her mother then camilla or charles possibley will not be around who knows what is to happen
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  #77  
Old 09-04-2005, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
So the speculations about whether Wallis Simpson might be called Duchess of Lancaster if she married Edward morganatically were impossible ones?

I wonder what Stanley Baldwin and Alec Hardinge would have thought of the proposal of the title "Princess Consort" for Mrs Simpson back then.
Given it was supposedly just an idea thrown out by Churchill, who knows if the Cabinet would have done their homework on the title's relevance? Obviously, they were making things up as they went along anyway, given the eventual denial of HRH to the Duchess, which was illegal under British common law since it made the Duke's marriage morganatic!
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  #78  
Old 09-05-2005, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
When Charles is king, William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall, so Camilla can't use the title Duchess of Cornwall. The title Duchess of Lancaster would be available for her, though.
William wont automatically become Prince of Wales though will he? why does he inherit all his fathers titles but this one?
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  #79  
Old 09-05-2005, 01:56 AM
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He doesn't inherit them all automatically. Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay are titles automatically held by the eldest son of the monarch, along with the other Scottish titles (Earl of Carrick, Baron Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Great Steward of Scotland). The title of Prince of Wales, along with Earl of Chester, has to be conferred by the monarch.
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  #80  
Old 09-05-2005, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
According to the Duchy site, the Queen is referred to as the Duke of Lancaster when she's there on Duchy business. .
Just a thought.... If the Queen is the Duke of Lancaster does that mean Prince Philip is the Duchess?
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