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  #401  
Old 07-24-2007, 08:00 PM
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The difference there is that she IS the Duchess of Cornwall, so there's nothing to be done in order for her to be known as such. However, as Queen Consort, she won't be Princess Consort, so she'd have to be known as something she isn't. For the "Princess Consort" stuff to make any more sense than being known as Bozo the Clown, she'd have to actually be it as well as be known as it, and that would require legislation.
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  #402  
Old 07-24-2007, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by chrissy57 View Post
The difference is that Louise is being styled as the daughter of an earl, which she is of course. She is using a title that she is entitled to use even though she has legally a right to a higher title - like Camilla using DOC rather than POW.

However, once the present Queen dies Camilla becomes Queen Consort as Charles becomes King. As King he doesn't have lesser titles in the same way as he does now and as such Camilla can't just use a lesser title as one doesn't exist. It will have to be created for her and legislation will be needed to strip her of her right to take the status, styles and titles of her husband.
Agreed. I think you said it better than I did. :)
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  #403  
Old 07-24-2007, 08:40 PM
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Well at The Queen Mothers funeral the Earl Marshal in announceing her titles referred to her as Princess Elizabeth, in addition to her other titles and honours. That would seem to suggest that a Queen consort is also a princess, so its not a big leap to simply choose to be known as Princess Consort.She would be Queen in fact but known as something else. The monarchy is afterall a very adaptable institution.

I actually believe Camilla should use the title of Queen, but if another title is chosen I doubt very much that the legislative route will be taken because that would open up a debate on the monarchy both in the UK and in other commonwealth nations which no one would want.
  #404  
Old 07-24-2007, 08:57 PM
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It's very strange that they would have done that because she was never Princess Elizabeth.

Maybe Chrissy or branchg can explain this:

Thus it hath pleased Almighty God to take out of this transitory life unto His Divine Mercy the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother, Lady of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Lady of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Lady of the Imperial Order of the Crown of India, Grand Master and Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order upon whom had been conferred the Royal Victorian Chain, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John, Relict of His Majesty King George the Sixth and Mother of Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness.
  #405  
Old 07-24-2007, 11:09 PM
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Just call her The Queen Mother II.... she's always wearing her jewels....
  #406  
Old 07-25-2007, 12:11 AM
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I think "Princess Elizabeth" is just a very old way of referring to a Queen consort. In accession proclamations they refer to monarchs as "the Royal Prince(ss) Name X" when they aren't a prince(ss).
  #407  
Old 07-25-2007, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
The difference there is that she IS the Duchess of Cornwall, so there's nothing to be done in order for her to be known as such. However, as Queen Consort, she won't be Princess Consort, so she'd have to be known as something she isn't. For the "Princess Consort" stuff to make any more sense than being known as Bozo the Clown, she'd have to actually be it as well as be known as it, and that would require legislation.
I appreciate the point you are making about Camila not automatically holding the title of Princess Consort, and hence, Charles as monarch can create her as one. She will still legally be Queen Consort (as she is PoW now), but this would in effect be no more than recognition by Charles of the public will (and no different to Bozo the Clown!) I personally think Camilla should be Queen, but if there remains strong opposition to her holding the title, Charles will just have to bow to the public will.

We have already seen the softening of public opinion towards Camilla in the last 2 years, and I hope in time, Camilla will continue to endear herself to the larger public. She will never win everyboy over, but she will be doing well if she can get the opinion polls to around 50% of the public accepting her as Queen. To achieve that, I think she just has to continue to work hard, increase the number of public engagements she does each year (so that she does not come at the bottom of the unofficial league table published each year) and hope the Queen lives for another 10 years!
  #408  
Old 07-25-2007, 05:30 AM
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HRH The Duchess of Lancaster

As spouse to HRH The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Etc. Camilla Windsor-Mountbatten is -by common law- entitled to use her husband's titles and styles. She however wants to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. (And in Scotland HRH The Duchess of Rothesay).

Thinking furtherer in this way:

As spouse to HM The King, Duke of Lancaster, Etc. Camilla is -by common law- entitled to use her husband's titles and styles. She can express the wish only to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster?
  #409  
Old 07-25-2007, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M. View Post
As spouse to HRH The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Etc. Camilla Windsor-Mountbatten is -by common law- entitled to use her husband's titles and styles. She however wants to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. (And in Scotland HRH The Duchess of Rothesay).

Thinking furtherer in this way:

As spouse to HM The King, Duke of Lancaster, Etc. Camilla is -by common law- entitled to use her husband's titles and styles. She can express the wish only to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster?
The idea that the Sovereign holds the title of Duke of Lancaster is dubious at best. Once a title of nobility merges into the crown, it ceases to exist. The sovereign receives the revenue from the Duchy of Lancaster, yes, but that is because the title of Duke of Lancaster (and thus the funds) merged with the Crown. The use of the title is by tradition, not fact, as there ceased to be a Duke of Lancaster in 1422.

It would be slightly better to use the title Duchess of Normandy, as the title Duke of Normandy was granted by a foreign monarch. But even then, she would still use her husbands only style, which would be Majesty. In either case, she would be "Her Majesty the Duchess of N."
  #410  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BillW65 View Post
However, she just may not use that title and be known as HRH the Princess Consort without any letters patten or legislation to alter her legal title. I think it will be very similar to what has been done to Louise of Wessex. Her title has not been taken away, she just doesn't use it.
That's what Clarence House would like everyone to believe, but it simply is not true. Once Charles becomes King, Camilla's rights and precedence automatically are upgraded via statutory succession as HM The Queen.

Any deviation from the constitutional precedents rest with Parliament and require consent from the Crown Commonwealth as well. She is no longer a princess of the UK by marriage once her husband is King and holds superior rank and precedence in her own right as Queen Consort.

Louise is the daughter of an Earl and a princess by right of the 1917 Letters Patent. She can use either style without controversy.
  #411  
Old 07-25-2007, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well at The Queen Mothers funeral the Earl Marshal in announceing her titles referred to her as Princess Elizabeth, in addition to her other titles and honours.
It is customary at royal funerals to announce all of the titles and styles accumulated over your lifetime, whether they apply currently or not.

I assume The Queen consented to the style of "Princess Elizabeth" even though her mother was never a princess in her own right. She was "HRH The Princess Albert" upon marriage to The Duke of York.
  #412  
Old 07-25-2007, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Henri M. View Post
She can express the wish only to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster?
No, because her husband is "HM The King, The Duke of Lancaster" as a style only when visiting the duchy on official business. It is no longer held in the peerage since it merged with the Crown and refers only to The Sovereign.
  #413  
Old 07-26-2007, 01:42 PM
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How timely this quote from the latest Court Circular is!
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Quote:
Her Majesty, Duke of Lancaster received the Lord Shuttleworth (Chairman of the Duchy of Lancaster) and Mr. Paul Clarke (Chief Executive).
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  #414  
Old 07-26-2007, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by selrahc4 View Post
How timely this quote from the latest Court Circular is!
Link
Is there an archive of the Court Circular? Then one could look if there ever was a quote saying: Their Majesties, Duke and Duchess of Lancaster...

I found this on the International Herald Tribune site: a report from 1907:

NEW YORK: 1907: Royal Visit To Paris
LONDON: King Edward and Queen Alexandra left for Paris yesterday [Feb. 1], says "Lloyd's Weekly," to pass a quiet week there, as private persons, under the style of the Duke and Duchess of Lancaster. Without any ceremony or escort, the Royal couple and Princess Victoria drove from Buckingham Palace to the Wilton Road entrance of Victoria Station, where they were vigorously cheered by a large crowd. The King wore morning dress, with a heavy brown overcoat and a bowler hat. The Queen was in black, and wore a bunch of carnations at her waist, while Princess Victoria had on a gray costume. The Prince of Wales and his eldest son were in the Royal saloon to see them off, and among those present were the Hon. Derek Keppel, Sir Edward Henry, Chief Commissioner of Police; General Sir Dighton Probyn and Dr. Nansen, the Norwegian Minister.
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  #415  
Old 07-26-2007, 10:30 PM
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The point remains the same. It is strictly a style, not a title, and has never been used for the wife of The King. She cannot be HRH or Duchess of Lancaster because she is HM The Queen.
  #416  
Old 09-03-2007, 01:30 PM
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Quite right. Camilla will have the right to be known, upon Charles' ascension, as Queen Camilla. I don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about it. She doesn't use her title of Princess of Wales because it is linked to Diana--but Queen Diana would have never been used so why should there be controversy? If Andrew ever remarries, should his new wife take a title other than Duchess of York because the title is so closely associated with Sarah? I think the RF messed up when they announced that Camilla would be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and upon Charles ascension the Princess Consort. They should have left the Princess Consort out of it entirely.
But, be that as it may, the title of Duchess suits Camilla quite well; I think Princess does not. Queen will suit her well, too.
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  #417  
Old 09-04-2007, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
Quite right. Camilla will have the right to be known, upon Charles' ascension, as Queen Camilla. I don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about it. She doesn't use her title of Princess of Wales because it is linked to Diana--but Queen Diana would have never been used so why should there be controversy? If Andrew ever remarries, should his new wife take a title other than Duchess of York because the title is so closely associated with Sarah? I think the RF messed up when they announced that Camilla would be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and upon Charles ascension the Princess Consort. They should have left the Princess Consort outof it entirely.
But, be that as it may, the title of Duchess suits Camilla quite well; I think Princess does not. Queen will suit her well, too.


I couldn't agree more. Camilla will make a great Queen and will be a wonderful asset to the nation & to the Commonwealth.
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  #418  
Old 09-04-2007, 10:40 AM
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I think that Diana and Sarah should have been giving a title at the time of the divorce. If Andrew did remarry that his wife would be the Duchess of York and Sarah would also hold the title of Duchess of York. The Queen should have giving them their own title out right. This would have stopped some of these problems. Diana would have held a different title at her time of death and the title would not have such a event tied to it. JMHO
  #419  
Old 09-04-2007, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by msleiman View Post
I think that Diana and Sarah should have been giving a title at the time of the divorce. If Andrew did remarry that his wife would be the Duchess of York and Sarah would also hold the title of Duchess of York. The Queen should have giving them their own title out right. This would have stopped some of these problems. Diana would have held a different title at her time of death and the title would not have such a event tied to it. JMHO
Yes, I agree it would have been easier but nobody had thought Diana would die either. It's indeed a difficult situation.
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  #420  
Old 01-23-2008, 02:31 PM
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A document I found at: HO 144/22945
as part of the archived material of the discussion about the rank and position of the wife of the Prince of Wales:

"Buckingham Palace

16th May 1923

Dear Boyd,

Many thanks for your letter of yesterday about the question of the rank and position of the wife of the Prince of Wales in the case of His Royal Highness's marriage.

Your letter leaves no doubt in the matter that the lady, whoever she may be, would automatically become Princess of Wales and a Royal Highness.

yours very truly,

Stamfordham

H. R. Boyd Esq.
C.B.E.,
Home Office"

Camilla became automatically Princess of Wales and will automatically become queen once her husband becomes king. That's her position and rank when it comes to the law. But it is made clear in that discussion that "Prince of Wales" is a peerage and while the wife of a peer can use a "lower" title of her husband's, it is a difference when it comes to the queen Consort, as her husband is not longer a peer. The king has no lower title than king, he is not a prince of the UK - at least that was the argument when it came to Edward VIII. - because he lost his style as a prince, he had to be created a new peer by his brother and while this letters patent included the right for him to use the title of HRH, it was not included for his wife.

While Charles following the example of his mother (who created her husband a prince of the Uk, even though he was not born into the British royalty) can create Camilla a "princess of the UK" in her own right even though she is not a princess of the Blood Royal, she still will take her rank from her husband as his title is the higher one.... And I doubt that is changeable without leaving all wifes of husbands of rank out in the cold in the UK...

I can just imagine the outcry of the Diana-fans if Camilla becomes a princess in her own right instead of just being the wife of a prince and later king!
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