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  #381  
Old 06-27-2007, 09:20 PM
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LOVE the Queen, but as time goes by, I find myself questioning the lingering unrelevance the monarchy now plays within Australia.

If Charles does become King of Australia, it won't be for too long I'd imagine. And as for the Duchess, while Camilla shall have no role to play within Australia, Australian's on the whole are so terribly indifferent to her that the association between her, Australia's King and Australia just doesn't warm the hearts of the majority. But, it's also that 'we' don't care I guess.
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  #382  
Old 06-28-2007, 12:48 AM
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Just my subjective views...

Reasons for the new wife of Prince Charles to have the title Duchess of Cornwall primarily stem from negative public opinion regarding the British Royal Family after Diana's death. It has nothing to do with any feelings of heirs and/or other parties concerned.
As for the FUTURE official title of Duchess of Cornwall, let us hope that somewhat snobbish parliament members would find a right way out of this delicate situation, which I define as "both the wolves have eaten much and the sheep have not been touched".
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  #383  
Old 06-28-2007, 01:03 AM
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Camilla's rightful title, upon Charles ascension to the throne, will be Queen Consort--just as Queen Alexandra, Queen Mary, and Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. This a family, no, an institution, that is steeped solidly in tradition and custom. England is steeped solidly in these things as well and I firmly doubt that Parliament would ever pass a law denying the wife of the King her rightful title. That is really just silly to even consider--that hundreds of years of tradition can be undone for Diana? Seriously, when she and Charles divorced, Diana gave up her right to become Queen Consort, did she not? So why, pray tell, should Camilla have to give up a title Diana willingly relinquished and would never have held anyway? There is no way that Parliament or the monarchy would allow the wife of the King to be viewed as a second rate royal. That honor is reserved for those who divorce out of the royal family and behave badly. JMHO.
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  #384  
Old 07-06-2007, 05:54 AM
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Camilla will be Queen when Charles becomes king simply because it would require a change in the law in the UK and about 15 other commonwealth countries to deny her the title It has little to do with sentiment and tradition and everything to do with practicalities.
  #385  
Old 07-19-2007, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polly View Post
Camilla will be Queen when Charles becomes king simply because it would require a change in the law in the UK and about 15 other commonwealth countries to deny her the title It has little to do with sentiment and tradition and everything to do with practicalities.
I would generally agree with you but what concerns me is that the British Royal family seems to just change the rules and do what they desire as far as titles are concerned without going through the proper methods as in issuing new Letters Patent. Although legally the Duchess is HRH The Princess of Wales, they just chose to ignore that and she goes by the prince's secondary title. The case with Louise of Wessex is very similar, a royal princess just using a different style without legally changing it. Both have set a precedence. So when Charles becomes king I can envision the Duchess adopting the title Princess Consort as planned without going through the process of legally changing the law.
  #386  
Old 07-19-2007, 12:05 PM
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Personally speaking

Whatever her future title, I'm just glade Camilla's on the scene in an official capacity.

I enjoy following her engagements and the many pictures illustrating a lady whom possess a warmth and gentle demeanour.

Wish her hair wouldn't flop so much, but hey...
  #387  
Old 07-19-2007, 12:33 PM
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I honestly don't care what title she gets when Charles becomes king. If she wants the title "Princess Consort" that's fine, but if she becomes Queen Camilla that's fine as well. The only title I think that she shouldn't have had was Princess of Wales. That title is so associated with Diana, and I know that William's wife, and William's son's wife, and William's grandson's wife will probably carry it if the men are created Prince of Wales, but I think that Camilla, being a huge part of the dissentigration of Charles and Diana's marriage, shouldn't carry the title. It's too risky, and a ton of die-hard Diana fans would put up huge protests, because they won't be too happy about it.
  #388  
Old 07-19-2007, 01:01 PM
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A title doesn't become defunct because of the popularity of one holder. If that was the way it worked, we wouldn't have a King or Queen at all. As for a ton of die-hard Di fans putting up huge protests, a steam roller would soon sort that out. Seriously, if they've got nothing better to do than protest about someone's name then they really need a trip to Africa to see some real problems to crow about.
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  #389  
Old 07-19-2007, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acdc1 View Post
I honestly don't care what title she gets when Charles becomes king. If she wants the title "Princess Consort" that's fine, but if she becomes Queen Camilla that's fine as well. The only title I think that she shouldn't have had was Princess of Wales. That title is so associated with Diana, and I know that William's wife, and William's son's wife, and William's grandson's wife will probably carry it if the men are created Prince of Wales, but I think that Camilla, being a huge part of the dissentigration of Charles and Diana's marriage, shouldn't carry the title. It's too risky, and a ton of die-hard Diana fans would put up huge protests, because they won't be too happy about it.
So if Crown Princess Mary is hugely popular in Denmark, then her probably far less popular successor, the spouse to the then Crown Prince Christian should not be known as 'The Crown Princess' because this title is associated with Mary? That is the translation of what you say about the title Princess of Wales not to be used by Camilla.

Neither Diana nor Camilla were (are) a Princess in their own right. Their title was (is) purely out of social custom and courteoisie to address female spouses of titled men with their husband's title(s).

Camilla Rosemary Shand formerly Parker Bowles is rightfully married to The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Etc. and therefore has the same "rights" on being styled in the same way as the Prince's first spouse.

Just like Caroline Hutton is as much the Countess Spencer as her husband's first spouse (Victoria Lockwood) once was.



It was wrong by the Court to smuggle the proud title Princess of Wales under the carpet out of fear for a possible negative reaction. (For so far no any fear concerning Camilla has become true, by the way).
  #390  
Old 07-19-2007, 01:47 PM
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In my above post, I didn't mean that Camilla wasn't "worthy" of the title, or not as good as Diana, etc. I really like Camilla, actually a little better than I did Diana (she's not as, well, odd about some things as Diana was). I'm saying that it might cause controversy if Camilla gets the title of the woman whose marriage she had a pretty strong hand in breaking up (for future reference, she wasn't the ONLY hand, Diana had quite a few "friends" as well, but I think that it was Camilla who got the War of the Walses started). I think Charles and Camilla also knew how much controversy it would cause, so they went to calling her HRH the Duchess of Cornwall instead, which I think is also a rightful title.
  #391  
Old 07-19-2007, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acdc1 View Post
I'm saying that it might cause controversy if Camilla gets the title of the woman whose marriage she had a pretty strong hand in breaking up

That's why I think she should definitely be known as Queen when the time comes. It's a title Diana never held so there's little connection.
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  #392  
Old 07-19-2007, 07:53 PM
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I personally hope that Camilla is known as Queen Consort, but whatever she ends up being called she will provide the sort of support and companionship and love that Charles needs and quite clearly thrives on and which will make him a far better King than he would have been had they not married.

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"
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  #393  
Old 07-19-2007, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillW65 View Post
I would generally agree with you but what concerns me is that the British Royal family seems to just change the rules and do what they desire as far as titles are concerned without going through the proper methods as in issuing new Letters Patent. Although legally the Duchess is HRH The Princess of Wales, they just chose to ignore that and she goes by the prince's secondary title. The case with Louise of Wessex is very similar, a royal princess just using a different style without legally changing it. Both have set a precedence. So when Charles becomes king I can envision the Duchess adopting the title Princess Consort as planned without going through the process of legally changing the law.
No one is "ignoring" the fact Camilla is also Princess of Wales. As with any woman who marries the heir to the throne, she enjoys all of the titles and styles traditionally granted or automatically succeeded to by her husband. For obvious reasons, she has chosen to be styled as Duchess of Cornwall, but her married title and rank if Charles had no other titles is "HRH The Princess Charles". She is still a princess of the UK by marriage regardless of which peerage she is styled by.

Louise is a similar situation. By right of the 1917 Letters Patent, she is automatically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex as a male-line grandaughter of The Queen. At her parents' request, she is currently styled as the daughter of an Earl, which is fine because she IS the daughter of an Earl. Assuming the current letters patent remain in force, she can assume her superior rank and title at any time in the future.

Once Charles becomes King, these situations no longer can be applied because we are now dealing with a very different scenario. As the wife of The King, Camilla assumes automatically the title and precedence of HM The Queen in her own right. If her husband dies five minutes after his mother, she is HM Queen Camilla for the rest of her life as a dowager queen. Only Parliament can take away her rank and title as the wife of the King.

Being "HRH The Princess Consort" means she is a princess of the UK in her own right like Prince Philip is. But how can this be when she is already Queen? It can't without legislation being passed by Parliament taking away her superior rank and title, leaving The Sovereign free to create a lesser one in its place.

She cannot be "styled" as a princess of the UK when she is legally Queen Consort and holds superior precedence and title.
  #394  
Old 07-19-2007, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
No one is "ignoring" the fact Camilla is also Princess of Wales. As with any woman who marries the heir to the throne, she enjoys all of the titles and styles traditionally granted or automatically succeeded to by her husband. For obvious reasons, she has chosen to be styled as Duchess of Cornwall, but her married title and rank if Charles had no other titles is "HRH The Princess Charles". She is still a princess of the UK by marriage regardless of which peerage she is styled by.

Louise is a similar situation. By right of the 1917 Letters Patent, she is automatically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex as a male-line grandaughter of The Queen. At her parents' request, she is currently styled as the daughter of an Earl, which is fine because she IS the daughter of an Earl. Assuming the current letters patent remain in force, she can assume her superior rank and title at any time in the future.

Once Charles becomes King, these situations no longer can be applied because we are now dealing with a very different scenario. As the wife of The King, Camilla assumes automatically the title and precedence of HM The Queen in her own right. If her husband dies five minutes after his mother, she is HM Queen Camilla for the rest of her life as a dowager queen. Only Parliament can take away her rank and title as the wife of the King.

Being "HRH The Princess Consort" means she is a princess of the UK in her own right like Prince Philip is. But how can this be when she is already Queen? It can't without legislation being passed by Parliament taking away her superior rank and title, leaving The Sovereign free to create a lesser one in its place.

She cannot be "styled" as a princess of the UK when she is legally Queen Consort and holds superior precedence and title.

I agree and understand all of that. I just wonder if anything will be legally done when Camilla becomes Queen? I personally do not think Parliament will try and strip her of her legal title and position as Queen Consort. I believe she may just use the style and title of HRH The Princess Consort as was suggested when marrying Charles. I do understand that it creates a situation where the Queen would be holding a lesser title than what she legally already would have.
  #395  
Old 07-19-2007, 09:50 PM
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The title does not currently exist and has to be created by The Sovereign via letters patent. If Parliament agrees a Queen Consort can legally hold the title, rank and precedence of HM The Queen, while also being created a princess of the UK, then it is possible for Camilla to hold a lesser style.

I do not see how they can accomplish this because legally either you are The Queen or HRH The Princess Consort. You cannot be both.
  #396  
Old 07-19-2007, 09:52 PM
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If the legislation to change the rule that the wife of the King is automatically Queen is left till Charles becomes King, such a move would amount to taking away the title Camilla would have automatically acquired at the moment the current Queen died. If it's done during the current Queen's reign, it would still be a rather personal shot at Camilla, I think. The MP's speeches for and against the bill would make very interesting reading.

I don't think it's going to happen.
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  #397  
Old 07-24-2007, 08:32 AM
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As King, can Charles not issue letters patent awarding Camilla the title of HRH The Princess Consort? Does this have to be ratified by Parliament? I think the intention would be for Camilla to legally be Queen, but be referred to as HRH Princess Consort - quite like the current arrangement whereby she is the Princess of Wales but is referred to as Doc.
  #398  
Old 07-24-2007, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The title does not currently exist and has to be created by The Sovereign via letters patent. If Parliament agrees a Queen Consort can legally hold the title, rank and precedence of HM The Queen, while also being created a princess of the UK, then it is possible for Camilla to hold a lesser style.

I do not see how they can accomplish this because legally either you are The Queen or HRH The Princess Consort. You cannot be both.
The wife of a king is automatically a queen (consort as apposed to a queen regnant like Elizabeth II) there is no need to create a letters patent to create her as such.

I do not think there will be any legal proceedings to take away her title of queen when Charles becomes king. However, she just may not use that title and be known as HRH the Princess Consort without any letters patten or legislation to alter her legal title. I think it will be very similar to what has been done to Louise of Wessex. Her title has not been taken away, she just doesn't use it.
  #399  
Old 07-24-2007, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BillW65 View Post
The wife of a king is automatically a queen (consort as apposed to a queen regnant like Elizabeth II) there is no need to create a letters patent to create her as such.

I do not think there will be any legal proceedings to take away her title of queen when Charles becomes king. However, she just may not use that title and be known as HRH the Princess Consort without any letters patten or legislation to alter her legal title. I think it will be very similar to what has been done to Louise of Wessex. Her title has not been taken away, she just doesn't use it.
The difference is that Louise is being styled as the daughter of an earl, which she is of course. She is using a title that she is entitled to use even though she has legally a right to a higher title - like Camilla using DOC rather than POW.

However, once the present Queen dies Camilla becomes Queen Consort as Charles becomes King. As King he doesn't have lesser titles in the same way as he does now and as such Camilla can't just use a lesser title as one doesn't exist. It will have to be created for her and legislation will be needed to strip her of her right to take the status, styles and titles of her husband.
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:28 PM
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Camilla automatically becomes Queen the moment Charles becomes King. British women take their rank and title from their husbands, assuming he is of higher rank. Queen Consort is not a title it is a rank. The king's wife is simple the Queen. Still I assume that King Charles III could issue a public statement that his wife would be known as HRH The Princess Consort, just as she is now known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall even though she is also legally HRH The Princess of Wales. No Letters Patent required for either decision.
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