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  #301  
Old 05-27-2007, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
No, Diana was never entitled to be called Princess Diana, Camilla would also not be entitled to be called Princess Camilla.

I do know of at least one elderly lady who refers to Camilla as HRH Camilla, The Princess of Scotland!
Skydragon,
What elderly lady? I know of a lady whose young at heart who refers to Camilla as HRH Camilla, The Princess of Scotland!
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  #302  
Old 05-28-2007, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kerry
Skydragon,
What elderly lady? I know of a lady whose young at heart who refers to Camilla as HRH Camilla, The Princess of Scotland!
Cheeky! I was referring to an older friend, I just call Camilla, Camilla!
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  #303  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg
Diana was a bit of a unique situation. Although she was never created a princess in her own right via letters patent, The Queen did allow her to be addressed as Princess Diana, both during her marriage and after the divorce, because she was the mother of a future king. However, technically it was always incorrect.

Camilla is a different situation because she is a second wife and will not bear heirs to the throne. Her style and title as Duchess of Cornwall is viewed as sufficient to her standing, although she is also a princess of the UK by marriage.
I don't think it was a matter of the Queen allowing Diana to be called Princess Diana but Her Majesty deciding not to make a fuss when the tabloids started to call her Princess Diana.

When Charles and Diana got married, Buckingham Palace put out these press releases on how Diana was to be styled and it was Diana, Princess of Wales. The papers followed that for awhile but later they just refer to her as Princess Diana. By that time in the marriage, the Windsors were facing a lot more trouble than the fact that the papers were referring to Diana incorrectly.
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  #304  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kerry
I have no idea but the title of Duchess does suit Camilla better IMO.
Well if people received royal titles based on merit or somehow other personal quality that they only have, then I would agree that you may have a point.

But in Great Britain, there's no one thing you can do to deserve or not deserve the title of princess. It only denotes a woman born the child of a monarch or other royal prince or that a woman that marries a royal prince.

After all the talk of 'she always was a TRUE princess' and the 'people's princess', Diana was only a princess by virtue of her marriage and association with Charles, ironic as it seems given what Diana and Charles thought of each other by the end of their marriage.

Diana wasn't a Princess by virtue of any love or adoration she received by the public. The fact that she was the mother of a future King also required a little assistance from Charles, given that virgin births haven't been reported in over 2000 years. It also required her to be married to Charles since a child born out of wedlock would not be considered a future king.

Charles is inextricably linked to Diana's rank as Princess because it was his rank that gave Diana her rank-nothing more, nothing less.

Following normal protocol, Camilla also would take her rank from her husband regardless of whatever merit or non merit she had. It was understandable that they wanted to call her Duchess of Cornwall but a mistake IMHO because with that action, they made the individual bigger and more important than the title.

In my opinion, I don't think the monarchy will survive celebrity-ization of individual members of the royal family. You don't know how individual lives will turn out and focus on the individual can force the institution's fate high or low right along with the individuals but a well-run insititution can survive the foibles of individual royals.
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  #305  
Old 05-28-2007, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I don't think it was a matter of the Queen allowing Diana to be called Princess Diana but Her Majesty deciding not to make a fuss when the tabloids started to call her Princess Diana.

When Charles and Diana got married, Buckingham Palace put out these press releases on how Diana was to be styled and it was Diana, Princess of Wales. The papers followed that for awhile but later they just refer to her as Princess Diana. By that time in the marriage, the Windsors were facing a lot more trouble than the fact that the papers were referring to Diana incorrectly.
All true. However, The Queen also approved Diana's royal lozenge after the separation was announced, which featured a stylized D under a coronet, which is usually reserved for the children of the Sovereign only.

I think it's safe to say she permitted Diana to retain the dignity of being a princess, although she was only one by marriage and lost the distinction with divorce.
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  #306  
Old 05-28-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
All true. However, The Queen also approved Diana's royal lozenge after the separation was announced, which featured a stylized D under a coronet, which is usually reserved for the children of the Sovereign only.

I think it's safe to say she permitted Diana to retain the dignity of being a princess, although she was only one by marriage and lost the distinction with divorce.
I haven't followed that too closely, so don't know: was Diana awarded something Fergie did not get?
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  #307  
Old 05-28-2007, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
I haven't followed that too closely, so don't know: was Diana awarded something Fergie did not get?
She was awarded many things in her separation and divorce that Sarah did not receive. But that is another topic altogether.
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  #308  
Old 05-28-2007, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
All true. However, The Queen also approved Diana's royal lozenge after the separation was announced, which featured a stylized D under a coronet, which is usually reserved for the children of the Sovereign only.

I think it's safe to say she permitted Diana to retain the dignity of being a princess, although she was only one by marriage and lost the distinction with divorce.
I imagine that at the time of the separation the Queen would have expected Charles & Diana to live their separate lives discreetly and would not have expected them to divorce. If Diana was going to remain Charles' wife, she would have eventually become Queen, and for that reason alone it would have been reasonable for Diana to be accorded special status.
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  #309  
Old 05-28-2007, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

Her Royal Highness

The Princess of Wales

The Duchess of Cornwall

The Duchess of Rothesay

The Countess of Chester
The Countess of Carrick
The Baroness of Renfrew
Lady of the Isles




And Princess and Great Stewardess of Scotland!

Also as the wife of Prince Charles, Camilla is also Lady of the Garter, Lady of the Thistle, and Lady of all of his many other Orders of Chivalry.... thus she can add to her long list of titles, the following initials:
KG, KT, OM, QSO, GCB.....
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  #310  
Old 05-28-2007, 07:49 PM
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Just because she's Charles's second wife doesen't mean she is a lady of the gartar. Isn't one appointed to be a member of the gartar.
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  #311  
Old 05-28-2007, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Diana was a bit of a unique situation. Although she was never created a princess in her own right via letters patent, The Queen did allow her to be addressed as Princess Diana, both during her marriage and after the divorce, because she was the mother of a future king. However, technically it was always incorrect.

Camilla is a different situation because she is a second wife and will not bear heirs to the throne. Her style and title as Duchess of Cornwall is viewed as sufficient to her standing, although she is also a princess of the UK by marriage.
I think, like Kerry, that her title of Duchess of Cornwall suits her "à merveille". I don't think she cares to be called a Princess. She was in love with Prince Charles and wanted to marry him, as all women in love wants to marry their beloved ones...Once she did, she began to be perfectly happy (at least this is that I believe). Duchess of Cornwall is a good title.

And I do not think Prince of Walles would regret his marriage to Lady Diana. I suppose that, at first he tryed with all his might to really like her (even if he couldn't love her), and I think he succeded in a certain way. Their children were a solid tie between them, and still are. I don't imagine that Prince Charles could hate Diana or view the years he was married to her, as a complete hell...and after all, he cried when she died. His face during Diana's funeral is saying all about his personal feelings toward her. She was his wife for years...and that counts for something, isn't it?

Vanesa.
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  #312  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
I think, like Kerry, that her title of Duchess of Cornwall suits her "à merveille". I don't think she cares to be called a Princess. She was in love with Prince Charles and wanted to marry him, as all women in love wants to marry their beloved ones...Once she did, she began to be perfectly happy (at least this is that I believe). Duchess of Cornwall is a good title.

And I do not think Prince of Walles would regret his marriage to Lady Diana. I suppose that, at first he tryed with all his might to really like her (even if he couldn't love her), and I think he succeded in a certain way. Their children were a solid tie between them, and still are. I don't imagine that Prince Charles could hate Diana or view the years he was married to her, as a complete hell...and after all, he cried when she died. His face during Diana's funeral is saying all about his personal feelings toward her. She was his wife for years...and that counts for something, isn't it?

Vanesa.
It certainly does, theres no point in holding grudges against a dead person.
And I also believe that the style of Duchess suits Camilla.
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  #313  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:13 PM
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Just because she's Charles's second wife doesen't mean she is a lady of the gartar. Isn't one appointed to be a member of the garter.
True but she'll certainly get it in the near future. As the future Queen, she automatically gets it - not on the statutes of the Order but on tradition.
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  #314  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
I think, like Kerry, that her title of Duchess of Cornwall suits her "à merveille". I don't think she cares to be called a Princess. .
Well I don't think Camilla particularly cared for being married to Charles either; their relationship without a marriage certificate meant she could enjoy his companionship without the responsibilities and the pressures involved with being his wife and a Princess of Wales.

But the Queen rightly saw how that situation was untenable for both Camilla and Charles and both of their reputations were suffering because of it.

It is not necessarily a bad thing to expect that a woman who marries the Prince of Wales should accept everything that comes with such a marriage-both the good and the bad.

As I said, I understood why they decided to have her go by the name Duchess of Cornwall I think it shall make the future much harder in the long run for all concerned and Diana is hardly in a place where she is worried about what will happen to the Princess of Wales title.
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  #315  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:17 PM
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One doesn't get the Order of the Garter unless the monarch so chooses. Up till now neither Diana nor Camilla nor any other married Princess has received the Garter. Only born princesses such as Princess Anne and Queen Consorts have received it.

If Camilla becomes Queen, no doubt Charles will bestow upon her the Order of the Garter. If his marriage with Diana had been successful and the two had ascended the throne as King Charles and Queen Diana, no doubt he would have bestowed the Order of the Garter on Diana.
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  #316  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:18 PM
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Yes but when Charles becomes King I think it's very safe to say that she'll get that Garter. That's what I meant.
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  #317  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Yes but when Charles becomes King I think it's very safe to say that she'll get that Garter. That's what I meant.
OK, I got ya. That's what I meant too.

Although we're straying far from the topic of what title should Camilla get.

Hey, I've got a question to throw out at you all. Who here believes Camilla should not have the Princess of Wales title ever but believe that she should be crowned Queen when Charles is crowned King.

Up till now I think most people assumed that if she didn't take the title of Princess of Wales, she wouldn't or shouldn't take the title of Queen.

But Diana never had the title of Queen so its not like Camilla is using something that Diana previously owned.

Does that make a difference or do the people who think Camilla should not be Princess of Wales also believe that she should not be Queen?
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  #318  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:26 PM
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If Charles had no other title, then wouldn't his Garter make him Sir Charles Windsor, essentially? So then Camilla would in effect be Lady Windsor. No?
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  #319  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:27 PM
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Yep. If all titles went tomorrow, they'd be Sir Charles Mountbatten-Windsor and Lady Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor.
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  #320  
Old 05-28-2007, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Hey, I've got a question to throw out at you all. Who here believes Camilla should not have the Princess of Wales title ever but believe that she should be crowned Queen when Charles is crowned King.

Up till now I think most people assumed that if she didn't take the title of Princess of Wales, she wouldn't or shouldn't take the title of Queen.

But Diana never had the title of Queen so its not like Camilla is using something that Diana previously owned.

Does that make a difference or do the people who think Camilla should not be Princess of Wales also believe that she should not be Queen?
I think being styled as Duchess of Cornwall was a necessary concession to the fact that Diana died with the style of Princess of Wales and was the mother of Princes William and Harry. It would have been insensitive for a second wife who was not the mother of the heirs to be styled as Princess of Wales, even though Camilla has the right to do so.

But the issue of her title and style when Charles becomes King is another matter altogether. She is his lawful wife and entitled to be Queen when the time comes. Even if Diana had lived, she was never going to be Queen and that's the end of that.
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