Title for Camilla - Part 3

[Madame Royale]

Originally Posted by jcbcode99

There was some discussion about whether Camilla even wanted to be Queen--well, of course she does.

We don't know that. We can ony surmise given she married an heir to a throne...

I, personally, don't think Camilla would be much phased either way. Whatever her title, she's with her soulmate.

Personally, and this is not meant with ill intent, I just can't 'associate' with a Queen Camilla. To me, she doesn't present as a possible Queen, nor does such a title become her I think. It's not that she was an adultress, and it certainly has nothing to do with the late Diana, Princess of Wales. Diana was never going to be Queen Consort anyway.

Camilla is, dare I say it, fresh. She has brought something that neither Diana or Charles posses, and to be honest I'm not even sure what it is. Yet, I 'sense' it and appreciate it. She's not particularly beautiful as such, but there is such warmth about her, such character and amiability.

I see her and I see what I'd describe as a true Duchess. Image, attire, composure...she's every bit the royal Duchess and I'm so glade she is addressed as such. Though one of her many titles by marriage, I just couldn't imagine her being known as Princess of Wales. And again, not because of Diana but because she fits the illustration of a Duchess so wonderfully well.

I want her to be known as Princess Consort because like Camilla, it's something unprecedented. Not that I purposely wish for the destabilisation of tradition, but for someone I view as unique, I want her to have something which is her own, in her own right. I understand that this would be, ultimately, considered a downgrade from her hereditary entitlement as spouse of the King, but to be created a Princess of the United Kingdom is such an honour which I would like to see bestowed upon her. Being Queen, she would be Her Majesty, but only because her husband is King. It identifies not her, but her husbands position and I'd like her to have something that is her own to identify with. And as Fount of Honours, I'm most certain her husband would ensure her precedence at court would reflect the fact she is the King's wife. She would still be First Lady in the Land.

My reasons may seem flimsy to some, and you're welcome to think whatever you wish (really not phased), but to me Camilla fits the image of what I'd expect a Princess Consort to be, and so it's my hope that any legislation needed, will be passed when the times comes. If not? Well, I think I'll manage..hehe.

No doubt my motivations are entirely different to that of the court.

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

What about lesbians though?

I think it would be the same. Women have never been able to give a title to their spouses.

I think in the case of a royal, however, something would at least be offered.

Wasn't it a while ago that someone in the college of arms proposed "Laddy" for the husband of a knight? I remember thinking it would sound ridiculous. There has to be something out there better than "Laddy," which sounds like something one calls a pet dog.

[BeatrixFan]

Well I'd just go with the same title tbh. If a man marries Sir Mincing Merrily then he becomes Sir Justin Queer. It does seem that Britain has a bit of a double standard when it comes to marriage. If you're what society deems to be morally pure then you can have your husband's title, if you're not then you have to settle for something lower as a hallmark of shame to be borne forever more until you burn in the fires of the great below. And I thought we'd moved on. Just let Camilla be Queen and I'll be happy. Because if I'm not happy it's going to be a very long decade.

[jcbcode99]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

We don't know that. We can ony surmise given she married an heir to a throne...

Madame Royale, I am speechless. Well, actually, you know that is impossible , but I really understand your post--and I have to say that you make a very good point. I also think that the title of HRH Duchess suits Camilla very well--it is regal and sophisticated and elegant--just like her. I admire your reasons for wanting Camilla to be HRH The Princess Consort, and I canot help but on one level to agree with you but I am still of the mind that Camilla has the right to be Queen Camilla. Just as I thought that Princess Lilian should have been Queen Lilian--I firmly feel that the wife deserves the same style as the husband. Call me old-fashioned--it's who I am! But, should Camilla become HRH The Princess Consort I will remember you words and I think I will be able to sit back and smile.

[Madame Royale]

You really are a sweetheart, jcbcode99 I am glade you see my intent, for what it is.

I too understand you're reasons and the reasons of many others who believe Camilla should remain Queen. She is his wife, and the wife of the King is his Queen.

I guess the major difference between our respective opinions is that I'm not talking of rights or entitlements, but of bestowing a gift, an honour and a privilege to someone I see as worthy of such a break in tradition. Personally, I'm not viewing this possibility of change as an equality issue, but as something extroardinary and unmatched...

[branchg]

Well, I agree it doesn't necessarily have to be the end of the world for Camilla to be HRH The Princess Consort instead of Queen. After all, she is a second wife and not the mother of the King's children, so the traditional precedents have already been broken anyway.

And the truth is Charles is likely to be quite old by the time he ascends the throne and his reign will be relatively short. Given all the monarchy has survived for thousands of years, it can certainly evolve and move on from his wife not being Queen Consort.

[wymanda]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Well I'd just go with the same title tbh. If a man marries Sir Mincing Merrily then he becomes Sir Justin Queer.

You crack me up BeatrixFan!!!!!!

I assume that's why Sir Eltons' partner isn't Lady David??????

Wasn't it a while ago that someone in the college of arms proposed "Laddy" for the husband of a knight? I remember thinking it would sound ridiculous. There has to be something out there better than "Laddy," which sounds like something one calls a pet dog.

I saw in Hello that the title for Bill Clinton should Hilary win office had been suggested as Laddie by some of his Scots' friends!

[Empress]

As far as I understand it, Maxima will be known as Queen Maxima. The thread that is being bandied about here, is one that is a discussion of a new act passed in the Netherlands, but they've made no specific provisions as to Maxima. And as this was passed after their marriage, it is likely that she will be known as Queen. There has been no official or unofficial communications saying that this will effect the spouse of a monarch, but more that children born of royal marriages, be they male or female, have equal rank, so to speak. I personally believe that they will follow tradition. I do not think that this act was meant

[Jo of Palatine]

I think it's interesting that in conservative Spain, the king created his daughters on their marriage duchesses and that their husbands took over these titles even though the husband was not created a duke.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

I think it's interesting that in conservative Spain, the king created his daughters on their marriage duchesses and that their husbands took over these titles even though the husband was not created a duke.

Spain is actually quite liberal with regard to their royal family and Juan Carlos a modern man. For a divorcee to marry the heir to the Roman Catholic throne of Spain without a fuss is pretty progressive.

With regard to his daughters' titles, the dukedoms were styles created for life only (they do not pass to the grandchildren of the King). Inaki and Jaime hold them as a courtesy style, being married to Infantas of Spain, not in their own right as Grandees or Dukes.

With Jaime and Elena divorcing, it is likely he will lose the courtesy eventually or be granted something else in his own right.

[tinkerbell1948]

Madame Royale I've been meaning to say what a lovely post about Camilla.....yes a true Duchess

It doesn't really worry me what her title will be after Charles becomes King but your reasoning about her being known as the Princess Consort makes it a title in it's own right rather than a "consolation prize"

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by branchg

Spain is actually quite liberal with regard to their royal family and Juan Carlos a modern man. For a divorcee to marry the heir to the Roman Catholic throne of Spain without a fuss is pretty progressive.

With regard to his daughters' titles, the dukedoms were styles created for life only (they do not pass to the grandchildren of the King). Inaki and Jaime hold them as a courtesy style, being married to Infantas of Spain, not in their own right as Grandees or Dukes.

With Jaime and Elena divorcing, it is likely he will lose the courtesy eventually or be granted something else in his own right.

Jaime already is a marquess and a grande in his own right.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

Jaime already is a marquess and a grande in his own right.

Is he? He was the fourth of six sons and not the Count of Ripalda in his own right.

[KingJosh]

If they haven't already passed an act in parliment to with hold the Title of Queen from Her Royal Highness, then i don't think they ever will. And besides Charles looks so happy now, why not make her Queen.

[noldorlord]

Originally Posted by KingJosh

If they haven't already passed an act in parliment to with hold the Title of Queen from Her Royal Highness, then i don't think they ever will. And besides Charles looks so happy now, why not make her Queen.

I do not think that will come up in parliment until it needs to. That is the British way

[Madame Royale]

That is the British way

Without a doubt, it is!

Originally Posted by tinkerbell1948

Madame Royale I've been meaning to say what a lovely post about Camilla.....yes a true Duchess.

It doesn't really worry me what her title will be after Charles becomes King but your reasoning about her being known as the Princess Consort makes it a title in it's own right rather than a "consolation prize"

That is very nice of you, tinkerbell1948. It's nice to know some can either understand, or associate with one's resoning...

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by noldorlord

I do not think that will come up in parliament until it needs to. That is the British way

Quite rightly so. Who knows what might happen in the next few years and any action now, could affect future wives of a king.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Quite rightly so. Who knows what might happen in the next few years and any action now, could affect future wives of a king.

And let's be realistic. The way the young generation of Royals behaves nowadays and seems to get away with it without interference of the more senior Royals seems to strongly indicate that the old days are gone. So why bother with this old, old affair at all anymore? Charels and Camilla are happy together, Camilla behaves like the perfect queen-in-waiting and those people who get to know her enjoy the experience. Why should parliament start changing traditions when IMHO most of the Britons won't care that much but in all probability enjoy having a proper king with a proper queen at his side at their coronation.

[rmay286]

I see no reason why Camilla should not be given the title of Queen when Charles ascends the throne. He will be King, she is his wife and the wife of the King is according to tradition, the Queen. It shouldn't have anything to do with perceived moral character or some segments of public opinion. It's not like British monarchs gain the throne on the basis of either.

[Rebafan81]

I must Beatrixfan you really crack me up, I love reading your posts.
I think that Camilla should be whatever she wants, you only have to look at Charles and see how happy she has made him. It took him 55 years but he finally looks relaxed and happy. When did you ever see him laugh spontaniously while married to Diana, you see it a lot married to Camilla. I guess I am of the mind that if William and Harry are happy for their father, what right does anyone else have to say anything. IMHO