Title for Camilla - Part 3

[MARG]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

Camilla will never, at any stage, be required to curtsy to any of her continental counterparts. She may not be styled or titled as Queen but she shall continue to hold a precedence that would otherwise be reserved for the wife of the King.

If her precedence in Europe is the same as a queen, why is she not going to be a Queen?

She is either a Queen or she is a Princess, and in the minds of most ordinary people a Queen trumps a Princess on any given day of the week!
Any way you look at it, if the government changes the law, will it apply to any future queen, or just Camilla? Will Prince William's future wife be a Princess or a Queen?

If it is indeed the "Camilla Law", isn't that just a perceived "punishment" for past sins, to appease a small part of the people,and a very public slap on the face to the "King"?

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Maybe, but If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . It is a Duck!

[Madame Royale]

The fact remains that no matter her title, she shall not be required to curtsy to any European (let alone Asian or African) monarch or their consort as you implied would be the case.

I said a precedence that would otherwise be reserved for the wife of the King. I perhaps should have said a precedence which corresponds with the observance reserved for the husband of the Queen.

A punishment? Well, no one asked for them to make this intended change public knowledge when they did. It was a decision made by Clarence House (possibly with the support of BP as I'd imagine) and those who find it an appropriate alternative cannot be faulted for agreeing. A slap in the face? Then it is they who have inflicted that very slap.

And yes, I think it should start and stop with Camilla, and not for any reasons that I would consider her personal business. 'Camilla Law'...I like that...hehe.

but If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . It is a Duck!

To you and others she is a Queen in waiting for the simple fact she is the King's wife and as history has scribed, the wife of a King is his Queen. I get that and fair enough...

To me it is desirable that she be created Princess Consort as it is a title which, in my personal opinion, regards her in her own right, becomes her perfectly and maintains her precedence, although titled lesser than what is the conventional norm, as a reigning consort. It makes her inimitable amongst her continental equals and I like that. It's unique to the establishment and unparalleled.

[noldorlord]

Originally Posted by MARG

If it is indeed the "Camilla Law", isn't that just a perceived "punishment" for past sins, to appease a small part of the people,and a very public slap on the face to the "King"?

Didn’t King Henry 8th leave the Roman church so that he could marry whom ever he wished. All of his successive wives were called Queen.
Why not Camilla!

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by MARG

If it is indeed the "Camilla Law", isn't that just a perceived "punishment" for past sins, to appease a small part of the people,and a very public slap on the face to the "King"?

Yes, it is.

[serenissima]

So, even if Camilla is to take the style of the Princess Consort agreed by the Parliament or to take another title of her own like that Hong Kong born lady in Denmark does now, as long as she is the wife of the head of state, then, she willbe treated as the First Lady of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northen Ireland but probably not the Lady Consort of Mann and the Duchess Consort of Normandy and what-not. Maybe, over there she will be also known as the Princess Consort of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northen Ireland.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by MARG

If her precedence in Europe is the same as a queen, why is she not going to be a Queen?

She is either a Queen or she is a Princess, and in the minds of most ordinary people a Queen trumps a Princess on any given day of the week!
Any way you look at it, if the government changes the law, will it apply to any future queen, or just Camilla? Will Prince William's future wife be a Princess or a Queen?

If it is indeed the "Camilla Law", isn't that just a perceived "punishment" for past sins, to appease a small part of the people,and a very public slap on the face to the "King"?

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Maybe, but If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . It is a Duck!

If they decide to change the law, then it must apply to every wife of every King for ever after. The last thing a lot of UK taxpayers would want, IMO, is the constant law changing between monarchs. It is absolutely ridiculous to expect her to be anything other than Charles' and the UK's Queen.

The ONLY reason some cling to the idea of her not being the country's Queen, is this stupid, IMO, belief that she should be punished over Diana, if Diana couldn't be Queen, then Camilla shouldn't. That argument really seems to be worn, bearing in mind all that came out at the inquest and what we have heard in the last 11 years, IMO.

[branchg]

There's no rational reason why she shouldn't be Queen. The wife of the King is Queen, not a Princess.

[Madame Royale]

It would seem Clarence House are, at this point in time, of a different opinion.

[serenissima]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

If they decide to change the law, then it must apply to every wife of every King for ever after. The last thing a lot of UK taxpayers would want, IMO, is the constant law changing between monarchs. It is absolutely ridiculous to expect her to be anything other than Charles' and the UK's Queen.

The ONLY reason some cling to the idea of her not being the country's Queen, is this stupid, IMO, belief that she should be punished over Diana, if Diana couldn't be Queen, then Camilla shouldn't. That argument really seems to be worn, bearing in mind all that came out at the inquest and what we have heard in the last 11 years, IMO.

There are some people who are still mourning for the death of Diana which is to me somehow rarther weird but that is their matters and not mine, so I shall leave those feelings to them. However, people whom I know who feel so uncomfortable re: her styling herself as HM the Queen, that includes myself, too, feel that by her becoming the queen our society accepts something that our society should respect such as feeling sorry for those who are less fortunate and this sort of notions but somehow promote the notions of the "winner takes it all" (in this case, it's not Camilla who is the winner but the Prince of Wales who plotted all this so that he could stay in his office and have his children with a woman who was approved by his own people et al and have his girlfriend as well etc etc) which is so prevalent nowadays in our society.

I am sorry for Camilla for having brought into all this in many ways and I have a feeling that she must be feeling terribly awkward, too, that she wanted to stay as Mrs Camilla Parker-Bowles who was with the Prince of Wales but the Queen didn't think that was the way etc.

I do feel it will be better for Camilla for her own sake to be styled or whatever as HRH the Princess Consort because that is what, they say now, she is intending to become etc. Should she ever become HM the Queen, people feel as though the royal people just lie just to get their own ways always etc. By taking the style what she was supposed to take when the eventuality takes place (as in the Demise of the Crwon), people will think again about this poor poor woman who fell in love with this not-so-nice man, 'ah, she did stick to her word and she stays behind the scene as she truly wished' and maybe feel that she may be styled as HM the Queen posthumously or something but hope Tom will turn that down as the Spencers did when the palace offered the HRH attached to Diana.

I truly think that Camilla will be a lot happier if she can stay in this way as she told so many times before they got married etc.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by serenissima

There are some people who are still mourning for the death of Diana which is to me somehow rarther weird but that is their matters and not mine, so I shall leave those feelings to them. However, people whom I know who feel so uncomfortable re: her styling herself as HM the Queen, that includes myself, too, feel that by her becoming the queen our society accepts something that our society should respect such as feeling sorry for those who are less fortunate and this sort of notions but somehow promote the notions of the "winner takes it all" (in this case, it's not Camilla who is the winner but the Prince of Wales who plotted all this so that he could stay in his office and have his children with a woman who was approved by his own people et al and have his girlfriend as well etc etc) which is so prevalent nowadays in our society.

What has Camilla being styled (not styling herself as you state) to do with feeling sorry for those less fortunate? Where is your evidence that there was any plotting done by Charles? Is it not the case that the man fell in love at a young age, his hopes and dreams of a life with the woman of his dreams was thwarted? That the young woman he chose as his bride was damaged goods and despite every effort, his bride embarked on a series of affairs, whilst he adulterously returned to the love of his life? Where your suggestion of plotting comes into that, I don't know! 66.6% (2/3rds) of marriages in the UK end in divorce, would you really return to the 'good old days' where people lived in absolute misery and stayed together 'for the sake of the children'.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by serenissima

By taking the style what she was supposed to take when the eventuality takes place (as in the Demise of the Crwon), people will think again about this poor poor woman who fell in love with this not-so-nice man, 'ah, she did stick to her word and she stays behind the scene as she truly wished' and maybe feel that she may be styled as HM the Queen posthumously or something but hope Tom will turn that down as the Spencers did when the palace offered the HRH attached to Diana.

I truly think that Camilla will be a lot happier if she can stay in this way as she told so many times before they got married etc.

Sorry? Do I understand you right that you think Camilla should be Princess Consort as long as she lives but Tom Parker Bowles, her son should be offered after her demise that his mother might be called HM The Queen posthumously? And why that nonsense? So that the world can see that Camilla "sticks to her word"? Now that really sounds weird to me.

Please show me evidence that Camilla in fact said anything at all about this. AFAIK, she never gave an interview and never published a statement.
And why elevate her posthumously to a rank she did not have in life?

really, I don't get your way of thinking. I understand Madame Royale, though for me "the wife of the king is the queen", but your argument is completely lost at me.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by serenissima

So, even if Camilla is to take the style of the Princess Consort agreed by the Parliament or to take another title of her own like that Hong Kong born lady in Denmark does now, .

That Hong Kong lady in Denmark, Alexandra married a prince and therefore became a princess, she was Princess Alexandra in her own right, not like the British royals who only take the title through their husbands. Until she remarried she was entitled to be Princess Alexandra, although once divorced she was downgraded from HRH to HH. Queen Margrethe created the title of Countess of Frederiksberg for Alexandra should Alexandra remarry in acknowledgement of the work Alexandra had done for Denmark.
When Alexandra remarried she lost her princess title, if she didn't have the Countess title she would be a plain Mrs. QM didn't have to create a title for her.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by serenissima

maybe feel that she may be styled as HM the Queen posthumously or something but hope Tom will turn that down as the Spencers did when the palace offered the HRH attached to Diana.

.

The Palace did not offer to reinstate Diana's HRH title after she died! It would have been a pointless exercise. The HRH is a status for the living, having a precedence in society, it means nothing in death. The Spencers didn't turn anything down since the Palace of all people know how titles and styles work wouldn't have even suggested it. Along with the story of William reinstating Diana's HRH when he is king it is nothing more than tabloid nonsense.

It's insulting to suggest that Camilla in life could be humilated by being known as a lesser title that she is due as the wife of a King and then in death, when it doesn't matter anymore she should be elevated to Queen!

[jcbcode99]

Originally Posted by Charlotte1

The Palace did not offer to reinstate Diana's HRH title after she died! It would have been a pointless exercise. The HRH is a status for the living, having a precedence in society, it means nothing in death. The Spencers didn't turn anything down since the Palace of all people know how titles and styles work wouldn't have even suggested it. Along with the story of William reinstating Diana's HRH when he is king it is nothing more than tabloid nonsense.

It's insulting to suggest that Camilla in life could be humilated by being known as a lesser title that she is due as the wife of a King and then in death, when it doesn't matter anymore she should be elevated to Queen!

Beautifully stated,, Charlotte1. The idea is foolilshly assinine.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Charlotte1

The Palace did not offer to reinstate Diana's HRH title after she died! It would have been a pointless exercise.

Actually, it was confirmed by The Earl Spencer that Robert Fellowes did, in fact, extend an offer from The Queen to restore Diana's royal rank as HRH in honour of her memory on the train ride to Althorp.

The Earl declined the offer as he felt Diana would not have wanted her style changed after her death.

[jcbcode99]

The offer was extended after the funeral, on the ride to Althorp?

[PrinceOfCanada]

The idea is foolilshly assinine.

This whole 'debate' is asinine. The wife of a King is a Queen, at least in the UK. The only reason she is styled HRH Duchess of Cornwall is out of respect for Diana. Since Diana was never Queen--indeed, had she not suffered that tragic accident, she would still never have been Queen--that does not apply.

Royalty throughout the centuries has committed adultery, abused power, and generally been much like common folk. They sit on their thrones due to historical accident; trace far enough back and someone was King because he had a bigger army than the next guy.

Yet, we still respect and venerate them, as they fill a very necessary position in society. Part of that is accepting that no matter what your feelings for Saint Diana may be, she and Charles were divorced 16 years ago and she died 11 years ago. There is a time and a place for memory and respect, but turning centuries of accepted practice on its head for no other reason than the hagiographers have a hate-on for Camilla is patently ridiculous.