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  #1281  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
We're not bound to the declaration of independance COUNTESS. We're not American, we British have built our country on different principles and indeed, a belief in birth right that can ultimately lead to one man being born above another. That's the British way, that's why we're discussing the British Royal Family - because we dont believe that all men are equal.
Too bad. This is the 21st century. I know many British people, some who are my cousins and they seem to feel as I do. You seem to be caught in some Victorian drama.
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  #1282  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:11 PM
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Maybe. Nice to see the American feeling that their way of doing things is the only way is still alive.
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  #1283  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Maybe. Nice to see the American feeling that their way of doing things is the only way is still alive.
It is not just an American way, it started that way, but many feel that way. It is sad that anyone thinks that by reason of birth, some one is better. God created us all as we are and loves us that way. There is nothing special about the RF. The best and the brightest are everywhere. Some of the worst have big positions, doesn't make them "better". YOU are as good as all. We are far off topic, but I do respect your feelings. It just makes me sad that anyone thinks they are inferior by reason of birth or any other reason.
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  #1284  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Nice to see the American feeling that their way of doing things is the only way is still alive.
True, The Declaration of Indapendance is of no value to those not under it's jurisdiction, but we musn't start throwing rocks at glass houses, sweetness. British Imperialism can be just as prominent My word it can and you yourself have displayed it many times over.

And I agree, a monarchy needs self importance. If 'they' can't take themselves seriously then how on earth they can expect the general public to
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  #1285  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nichola View Post
I feel sorry for Camilla here...damned if she does attend the service and damned if she doesn't!

Since we know she isn't attending, should this thread not be closed now?
Well, it stayed open when we knew she was attending...

We'll be closing it tomorrow when we open the thread about the service itself.
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  #1286  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
No one. We are all the same. "All men are created equal". The Declaration of Independence. It is true. No man is above another. You may think so, but many of us do not. Why would an accident of birth make anyone better? It does not. Sorry.
Even in the USA it does. One of the things that's kept the royal family going during the last 50 years while society has become more egalitarian is the unspoken contract between the royals and the public, where the royals have great privileges and correspondingly great responsibilities. The problem over the last couple of generations is that some of the royals, including some of the senior ones, have given every impression of taking advantage of the privileges without wanting to step up to their responsibilities. With his relative lack of royal duties and his highly publicised night-clubbing, William is beginning to be seen as one of these freeloaders, and that isn't good.
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  #1287  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
British Imperialism can be just as prominent. My word it can and you yourself have displayed it many times over.
Me? Imperialist? I had a cousin Evelyn.

Quote:
With his relative lack of royal duties and his highly publicised night-clubbing, William is beginning to be seen as one of these freeloaders, and that isn't good.
Exactly my point. I would expect him to be doing alot more than he is and the claims that he's being secretly prepared for Kingship don't show many benefits if the claims are true - which I dont think they are.
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  #1288  
Old 08-29-2007, 11:02 PM
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Not trying to act like a British mod or anything, but maybe we should continue the William discussion here http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ing-13230.html .

I think Elspeth and BeatrixFan raise legitimate questions/complaints regarding William's actions of late but I wonder if we are being a little too hard on him. Oh well, I will you in the thread.
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  #1289  
Old 08-29-2007, 11:18 PM
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I'm glad this thread is shutting down--it has become far too inflammatory. Ladies, I will be drinking in spirit with you on Friday when this whole debacle is over and we can talk about the actual events of the memorial--who came, who was with who, who said what, who wore what, etc.....
Good bye to the "Should Camilla attend the memorial service for Diana" thread--your time came and is now gone.
Toodles.......
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  #1290  
Old 08-29-2007, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Of course not. William and Harry are certainly not my betters. They gave away any right to that claim when they played the celebrity card and did all this "Just call me William" rubbish.
Well then I find your logic very confusing especially after stating:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
We want the RF to be these holier than thou people who never put a foot wrong but then we criticise them for not being human enough. They show a human side and they're not being royal enough. They honestly can't win.
Or do these words only apply to Charles and Camilla in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Again, no. They have to play the game. When they act like Royalty, they'll get the respect accorded to Royalty.
So basically, you would rather see William and Harry marry without love as long as it's to the right pedigree, keep mistresses on the side, start a new religion when they don't agree with the rules of the C of E, kill any wife that falls out of favor, have no involvement in the upbringing of their children, claim other countries as theirs just because they brought a flag, demand sexual favors from any bride on their wedding night, and then Harry should poison William and kill any children William may have had and then hide them in the tower, taking the crown for himself?. Perhaps they will be royal enough when William becomes King and shoves an act through Parliament banning the papparazzi from following him like a hawk. After all, the reason why previous royals looked less like celebrities was that they more or less controlled the press.

Where does it stop? Why do they have to earn their royalty when have made it quite clear that royals are born your betters.
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  #1291  
Old 08-29-2007, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
BeatrixFan:
We want the RF to be these holier than thou people who never put a foot wrong but then we criticise them for not being human enough. They show a human side and they're not being royal enough. They honestly can't win.

Kimebear:
Or do these words only apply to Charles and Camilla in your opinion?
Notice, I said 'we' referring to those who demand the Royal Family be more human. I didn't actually include myself in that.

Quote:
So basically, you would rather see William and Harry marry without love as long as it's to the right pedigree, keep mistresses on the side, start a new religion when they don't agree with the rules of the C of E, kill any wife that falls out of favor, have no involvement in the upbringing of their children, claim other countries as theirs just because they brought a flag, demand sexual favors from any bride on their wedding night, and then Harry should poison William and kill any children William may have had and then hide them in the tower, taking the crown for himself?
What the commoners don't see, the crown gets away with and so it's always been. Edward VII had many mistresses but the public didn't know about them. And did they need to? Some were extremely respectable members of society who could make up a foursome for bridge and step in when the Queen didn't want to play. Mistresses don't have to be a bad thing you know, again, it's a question of knowing one's place. As for involvement with children, nannies brought up the current Queen and didn't do such a bad job. Claiming countries - well, we can't exactly go back to that can we? I'll admit times have changed but there's no reason we should descend into total anarchy is there? Some things don't need to be constantly explain and justified. As I say, what the commoners dont see.
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  #1292  
Old 08-29-2007, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
What the commoners don't see, the crown gets away with and so it's always been. Edward VII had many mistresses but the public didn't know about them. And did they need to? Some were extremely respectable members of society who could make up a foursome for bridge and step in when the Queen didn't want to play. Mistresses don't have to be a bad thing you know, again, it's a question of knowing one's place. As for involvement with children, nannies brought up the current Queen and didn't do such a bad job. Claiming countries - well, we can't exactly go back to that can we? I'll admit times have changed but there's no reason we should descend into total anarchy is there? Some things don't need to be constantly explain and justified. As I say, what the commoners dont see.
You know, for all of our disagreeing on this thread, I do agree with you on this one. Which is why I feel for the boys. In this day and age the only way they are not going to get caught doing common things is if they stay locked up in the castle. Their privacy is not respected anymore. I also think that if their grandmother, who is the epitome of grace and duty and their father, who was raised in a more proper time, took more of a firm hand in guiding them in their official lives, they would make less mistakes. It is these two who are allowing them to live more common lives.
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  #1293  
Old 08-29-2007, 11:53 PM
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What the commoners don't see, the crown gets away with and so it's always been.
That also seems to be the attitude in republics, and it's widely believed that it got us into the current war in the Middle East. It depends on how much you want to be manipulated by cynical and hypocritical leaders.

And the lack of transparency cuts both ways - if the public had known what was going on with Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson, his popularity might have been enough for him to marry her and remain King. At least it wouldn't have just been a case of a few people deciding what they wanted and going ahead without consultation.

A hundred years ago most of the people lived pretty wretched lives because the government wasn't accountable to the people. Our "betters" are as likely to take advantage of their positions as anyone else.
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  #1294  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:10 AM
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Oh yes and I agree, our betters do take advantage but that's the priveledge of being better surely? For example, those in high places during the war who got hold of extra rations - it's a perk of the position and people knew it went on but any confirmation of it in the press would have created an atmosphere of anger and resentment. Whereas, in other areas, letting people know that the King and Queen were going without during WWII gave the public a special respect for them. As you say, transparency goes both ways.

Quote:
A hundred years ago most of the people lived pretty wretched lives because the government wasn't accountable to the people.
But we built an Empire all the same. We ruled the world all the same. We were great, all the same. Not everyone can live a lovely life and it's the haves and the have nots. The difference between today and yesterday is that yesterday, the haves gave a little to the have nots, the have nots knew that one couldn't become a have over night and everyone scrubbed along together. Today, the have nots feel that they're owed and have the automatic right to be a have which they want now, right this minute. And it doesn't work like that and I think this is the basis of the problem you know, everyone forgetting their place and not being able to accept their station and all it entails. Royals didn't live real lives and they made great sacrifices but they had great wealth and power as compensation - and they had a sense of duty too. Now that's gone and everyone is struggling to find new stations. In a way, I suppose it was the war that did it.
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  #1295  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
And the lack of transparency cuts both ways - if the public had known what was going on with Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson, his popularity might have been enough for him to marry her and remain King. At least it wouldn't have just been a case of a few people deciding what they wanted and going ahead without consultation.
That would have saved the image of the monarchy a bit of bruising.
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  #1296  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:31 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
But we built an Empire all the same. We ruled the world all the same. We were great, all the same. Not everyone can live a lovely life and it's the haves and the have nots. The difference between today and yesterday is that yesterday, the haves gave a little to the have nots, the have nots knew that one couldn't become a have over night and everyone scrubbed along together.
And in most countries it ended in revolution. Including countries where the people were by and large kept ignorant about the excesses of the extremely wealthy.
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  #1297  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:37 AM
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But you can always stop revolution if you have a strong leader and a strong army. Which the countries suffering revolutions rarely had.
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  #1298  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:40 AM
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Yes by all means keep your subjects downtrodden. Why doesn't William just re-enslave India while he is at it.
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  #1299  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:44 AM
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It'd give him something to do other than waste time on memorial services that upset everyone.
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  #1300  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:47 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
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But you can always stop revolution if you have a strong leader and a strong army.
I see. And this is the sort of society you think we should be striving for? A monarch ruling by divine right, not accountable to anyone, and the people expected to be content with being "have nots" because the alternative would involve being obliterated by the army?

There are a few countries like that nowadays, and interestingly enough, they're lurking near the bottom of the UN Human Development Index whereas constitutional monarchies make up a majority of the top 20.
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