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  #1201  
Old 08-28-2007, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
I tell you what, we'll plug her into the life support now and keep her as a vegetable until Charles dies just so he can't become King eh? Will that suit you? 101, 110, 150, who cares about the Queen's health, it's denying Charles his birthright that's the most important thing after all. Honestly, who needs republicans when you've got monarchists?
Honestly, the longer time I see Prince Charles waitng for the throne, the more sadness and uncertainty I can see in his life. Of course we cannot ask the Queen to abidicate because she is such a examplary monarch and the abidication is a dark shawdow over the monarchy.

But who really cares about Charles's frustions and long-term self-tourtures because of such a long-term period of wasting his life for an uncertain destiny? If tomorrow he announced he would quit from the throne line, I would not crticise him as an irresponsible person at all but he has been put in an impossible postion with a great cruelty in his life? No doubt he would find everyway to justify his existence and leave his marks while he is alive.

I am not a British, but I don't want a monarchy in any country anymore. It is up to the people there to decide but I believe that there are great unspoken pains and frustrations and self doubt about life achievements in these heirs to the throne.The reason why I support Prince Charles is because despite his flaws in his characters, his first failed marriage and his falling popularity and great criticism in many aspects in his lfe, I believe that he has a great sense of duty who is willing to serve his country and his people depite he felt great difficulty to deal with and felt hopeless to satify people's expectations. I think until he died, some people will never really see a whole man in himself and give him more fair judgments which is due long time ago. His life is almost a tragedy from the year he became the duke of Cornwall. He cannot espcape his destiny even it is a destined great tragedity itself.
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  #1202  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:02 AM
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I am not a British, but I don't want a monarchy in any country anymore.
Do you know, I agree with you. About Britain that is. Quite simply, the British don't deserve one in the same way they didn't deserve the Empire. If one can't give these things the respect and hard work, faith and allegiance they need to survive then one doesn't deserve such institutions. The Empire fell, the Monarchy will fall - and then it'll be a scramble to the ballot box to find a President. And then, one morning in a little flat in Leytonstone, a husband will turn to his wife, closing the newspaper on the latest news headlines of some Presidential scandal or another and say, "I do miss the Windsors. We didn't treat them well at all really".
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  #1203  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AuroraB View Post
Why? His Granny was 25 years old when she became Queen.
Yes, but she wasn't dealing with a republican Prime Minister.

Also, the problems her children have had in their personal lives have been ascribed by some people, including Charles, to the fact that she was so busy learning the duties of her position that she didn't have time to be a mother.
  #1204  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:03 AM
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No one said they would keep the queen alive to deprive Charles of his rightful inheritence. This hysteria surrounding the decision, is no better than the decision itself. The problem is not the media or the "crazy fans", it is the people who react to this. If Camilla feels her best interests would be served by not attending, she should never have agreed. Her husband should have been smart enough to see the inherent problems. He was far too concerned for himself. The queen saw the problem, from what I read, I certainly don't know this personally and suggested the problem could be solved by not attending. No one is setting fire to the palace, no one has suggested Princess Consort except the woman who might bear that title some day. What is the real difference between a morgantic marriage or not at their age, there will be no heirs. Charles will probably be in his 70's when he ascends the throne. Who knows who will be alive when that happens. Many seem to be hysterical over things that may never be.
  #1205  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:23 AM
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Since we're dumping on Charles, I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. What if this is William and Harry's intended revenge against Camilla for her sins against their precious mother. We have to remember that Diana filled their heads with stories about Camilla and Charles when they were at an impressionable age. As hard as they tried, they may not have been able to overcome the psychological trauma caused by their parents' fighting and arguing and their mother's neuroses. The princes may have foreseen this outcome to the memorial service... Diana mania at its best.
  #1206  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mandy View Post
Since we're dumping on Charles, I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. What if this is William and Harry's intended revenge against Camilla for her sins against their precious mother. We have to remember that Diana filled their heads with stories about Camilla and Charles when they were at an impressionable age. As hard as they tried, they may not have been able to overcome the psychological trauma caused by their parents' fighting and arguing and their mother's neuroses. The princes may have foreseen this outcome to the memorial service... Diana mania at its best.
A nice thought, truely. I tried to avoid thinking things in this way because I found my thoughs are low and eveil. But I still don't hope that they are true because I want to see the light side in their characters rather than these dark cornners. Yes, Diana mania at its best and at the end of the day they would celebrite another victory for beating that woman and that bad man.
  #1207  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
S

How anyone thinks a 25 year old boy who's so far shown interest in only skirt and football can be a better monarch than a 59 year old man who has spent his entire life preparing for a role by building political relationships, international relationships and actually changing the face of Britain for the better (and you can't deny, his official life has always been exemplary even when his private life has been a mess) is beyond me. Just because the fans of his mother are fans of his mother, doesn't mean that by him taking the reigns before his time things will suddenly brighten, the heavens will open and down will beam Diana. One would hope that William is his own person and intends to create some foundation of work that qualifies him and prepares him for the role of Sovereign as his father has had to do. .
I agree with this, mostly.

On the other hand, there's been little indication to date that William has any real desire to be other than his mother's son. I hesitated to make this point earlier as it's apparent to me that there's almost a cult-following surrounding William, just as it did his mother, and I've often wondered about it, this year, particularly. It doesn't seem to me as though William and Harry have successfully come to terms with their mother's unfortunate death and after 10years, that's a very real tragedy, in my opinion. It also gives me pause in believing their affirmations of love and goodwill towards Camilla, certainly so far as Harry, particularly,is concerned. This latest contretemps surrounding Camilla's attendance at Diana's memorial service does not encourage me to repose confidence in the long term future of the monarchy, at least in this country.

However, I don't find it remarkable that a 25 year old male's interests are predominantly 'skirt and football'. What's new in that? Obviously, William is aware that he's not going to be called upon to be King within the next five minutes and is simply being the universal pain in the pinny that all young men are. Soon enough, I think, for him to worry about long term constitutional and monarchical duties. In the meantime, I hope that he does develop some of his Dad's gravitas and social conscience and not hitch his star only to his late mother's enduring and shining celebrity. Only time will tell if he succeeds, and, of course, I wish him well, though I think it's against the odds.

As an aside: my young daughter saw last week's film about Charles and William. She noticed that William is going bald, already. Instantly, her devotion evaporated. I ask, when so much is influenced by the superficial, what hope do any of our RF have beyond their impeccable adherence to tradition and history?
  #1208  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Yes, but she wasn't dealing with a republican Prime Minister.

Also, the problems her children have had in their personal lives have been ascribed by some people, including Charles, to the fact that she was so busy learning the duties of her position that she didn't have time to be a mother.
Here I take exception, Elspeth.

Diana had a myriad of faults, indisputedbly. Not being a good mother wasn't one of them.

If Diana had problems learning the duties of her position, then that reflects most poorly on her husband and his family who knew them all, full well.

I have never before heard anyone suggest that Diana wasn't an exemplary mother, and to be honest, I find it most disconcerting.
  #1209  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
HE will be King. King. Not a stripper, celebrity, TV presenter or drag queen - KING. And that comes with its needs.
I'm not quite sure what you mean, BeatrixFan.
Are you saying that because Charles will be King, he is subject to a different code of behaviour from other mere mortals...?

I hope not -- its that kind of thinking that has got the Royal Family in the sorry state it is today.
  #1210  
Old 08-29-2007, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Polly View Post
Here I take exception, Elspeth..
I have never before heard anyone suggest that Diana wasn't an exemplary mother, and to be honest, I find it most disconcerting.
She meant the Queen not Diana.Elspeth meant that the Queen is too busy with her children and had no time to deal with their problems personally and which may have caused the troubles in their lives.
  #1211  
Old 08-29-2007, 01:00 AM
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I leave to go to a graduate course this afternoon and when I return the conversation has taken yet another three to four page turn with people calling the abolishment of the British Monarchy and for Charles' abdication in favor of William. Honestly-- I know that we are all a little upset over the handling of the recent announcement, and of our perception of Camilla being treated as a second rate citizen, and of what appears to be a growing sentiment that Charles is controlling, spoiled, and wants what he wants when he wants it.
I would like to take a moment and remind everyone of Camillagate. During some of those taped conversations, it appeared to me that Camilla exhibited a very strong personality with Charles and I honestly got the feeling that they were truly equal partners. Since their marriage I have felt that way as well. I find it hard to think that Charles would suddenly order Camilla to do something he knew she didn't want to do. We've been reading it for weeks--but is there any accuracy in those stories? SInce when do Camilla's people actually talk to the press? No one in her circle speaks to the press. Once again, I firmly feel that this was the press trying to weaken Charles and Camilla's future roles by making him look selfish and her look weak. Shame on them, and shame on us for thinking it. Camilla may not have particularlyl wanted to go to this service, but she was willing to do for the boys. She does not strike me as the type of person to accept an invitation from the boys and then cry and plead with her husband that didn't want to go. That just does not sound right to me. She accepted, intended to go, and now some advisors have told her that perhaps she shouldn't. I agree, the entire thing has become a debacle with people on this board calling for an abdication. I see no need for that, and I do think that Charles, once he gets his chance, will make a fine King. He has visions for Great Britain, and his wife, the Queen-to-be fully supports him, as he, I am sure, fully supports her. They would not have been together for thirty plus years if he was really whiny and selfish. I think she would have tired of it before now.
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  #1212  
Old 08-29-2007, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by love_cc View Post
She meant the Queen not Diana.Elspeth meant that the Queen is too busy with her children and had no time to deal with their problems personally and which may have caused the troubles in their lives.
Thank you for clarifying, love_cc.
  #1213  
Old 08-29-2007, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by love_cc View Post
She meant the Queen not Diana.Elspeth meant that the Queen is too busy with her children and had no time to deal with their problems personally and which may have caused the troubles in their lives.
My apologies then, Elspeth, if I misread your post.

As for The Queen causing problems in her children's lives - rhubarb! she was a busy and prepoccupied mother; she worked hard; she devoted as much of her time as she could to children (especially the two older ones).......

Why is every single problem that any adult encounters attributed to an uncaring mother? Where were the children's fathers?

Reputedly, Her Majesty lavished every attention on Princes Andrew and Edward, but I've yet to learn that these two royal sons have done anything remotely approaching the hard-work and goodwill towards their fellow man and woman as has the Prince of Wales.

And none of this has anything to do with the reasons why Camilla was wrongly made to accept, then decline, a wrong-headed invitation to an ill-conceived memorial service for the late Princess of Wales.
  #1214  
Old 08-29-2007, 01:39 AM
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Are you saying that because Charles will be King, he is subject to a different code of behaviour from other mere mortals...? I hope not -- its that kind of thinking that has got the Royal Family in the sorry state it is today.
Quite the opposite in my opinion. It's people forgetting their place that has led to this ghastly situation, spurned on by a woman who asked the world to forget she was a Princess yet still liked the Palaces, footmen and the HRH. Diana had more faces than Phyllis Diller but the public chooses to see only one, the one that "made the Royal Family become a bit more like the people". And that was the moment that it started going wrong. Call it Edwardian, call it snobbery but I expect the Royal Family to know their place and for me to know mine. We keep to our places and all is well with the world - now those places have indeed been forgotten and the jewels and garden parties are tumbling around our heads. But then I've always believed in respecting my betters - a very old fashioned ideal that went out with the cake walk. And in a moment I fear I shall say, "And Queen Mary not cold in her grave" - so I'll shut up.
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  #1215  
Old 08-29-2007, 01:40 AM
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And none of this has anything to do with the reasons why Camilla was wrongly made to accept, then decline, a wrong-headed invitation to an ill-conceived memorial service for the late Princess of Wales.
If we're talking about possible context and longer-term consequences of this latest debacle, it does have something to do with it. Part of the reason for the change of mind was the amount of ill-will and outright hatred whipped up by the press among members of the public whose immediate aim was to humiliate and/or intimidate the Duchess into not going to the memorial service and whose stated longer-term aim is to prevent Charles from becoming king so that William can succeed the Queen. It seems to not enter into their equation that William might not want to do that, or that the Queen's accession at an early age wasn't the best possible thing that could have happened to her personal life and that it's something she might not be keen to have William go through too.
  #1216  
Old 08-29-2007, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Polly View Post
Why is every single problem that any adult encounters attributed to an uncaring mother? Where were the children's fathers?.
Anne is the tough one and she had no problems of dealing with the absence of her mother and the storm character of her father. But Charles cannot truly cope with his father's storm style and his mother's absence. I have to say they are ill-matched father and sons in characters. Even I feel his characters are ill-matched with most of his immediately family except the Queen Mother, William and Harry. He is always the remote son and the remote brother to them and they to him. He is too emotional and too soft and too sensitive and too vunerable and too moody for them to cope with such a son and a brother.So Queen Mother and Mable Anderson were his safe havens in his childhood then later Lord Mountbatten in his teenages then Camilla in his adulthood from 20s.The great troube is that he seldom feels comfortable under his skins and he needs some loving and patient one to be there for him constantly. Unfortunately it is his natural flaw in his character and nothing really can make up except the great amount of love,guidance, support, assurance, praise to him. Sometimes I would wonder why I am intersted in this man for this kind of character? My mother certainly doesn't like it and my sister either. Probably I am over tolerating about his weak character which should not appear in a man who will be king.
  #1217  
Old 08-29-2007, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mandy View Post
Since we're dumping on Charles, I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. What if this is William and Harry's intended revenge against Camilla for her sins against their precious mother. We have to remember that Diana filled their heads with stories about Camilla and Charles when they were at an impressionable age. As hard as they tried, they may not have been able to overcome the psychological trauma caused by their parents' fighting and arguing and their mother's neuroses. The princes may have foreseen this outcome to the memorial service... Diana mania at its best.
That would be an unfortunate explanation. I just can't think so ill of them. It is a question of a balancing act between the love for a dead mother and the love of their living father which in this case is not always compatible. Charles has been a good father to them, especially after Diana's death. Of course they are going to want to please him. For that same reason they seem to have made a large effort to get on with Camilla, regardless of the history. It's their family, they are entitled to enjoy it.

The thing that troubles me with all the hoopla over the memorial is, at what point are some considering it to be official? I confess I really don't know myself. Is it, isn't it? The royal family (yes, I know, minus Camilla) are attending. But is their attendance going to be as The Royal Family (with all that entails) or as Diana's former in-laws? I genuinely believe that the Queen is attending at the request of her grandsons, not at the request of a future king to a queen. AFAIK there are no heads of state (or even minor royals) attending. No major governmental members in their official capacity. A holiday hasn't been declared. So I have trouble seeing how it can be claimed as an official event. I'm sure the "well, my tax money is paying for it" argument can be made, but at what point is the royal family's income theirs to do as they please? What would be the eventual progression of that line of thought? Should every tax payer have a say in what car Prince Charles buys for his sons, or what suits they get to wear also? Maybe William is covering the expenses out of the money he inherited from Diana's estate this year. How would that make it an official event?

An offical event would require that Camilla attend in her royal capacity. Her exclusion would be insulting. If it's not an official event, Camilla's attendance must be considered. At an official event, she most certainly attends and is an HRH and the consort of the Prince of Wales with all the respect due to her that the title requires. At an unofficial event, the overwhelming majority of the time she attends and is the loving wife of a loving husband with all the respect due to her that that relationship requires. But the memorial, in its most likely unofficial capacity and given her well known history with the deceased, is probably one time when she should have made a graceful retreat. Her position would be that of wife, not consort, and sometimes with wives there are sticky situations. It doesn't make her a second class citizen. The lack of her attendance at the memorial should in no way mar her position in the royal family. If you genuinely admire her, her reluctance to attend in the first place should have been supported. Why make her feel uncomfortable? Do you want her there for her dignity or is it for your comfort that she attends?

Camilla is HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. She picked the name, for whatever reasons she had. I think she made a name for herself as the Duchess. Her own identity. Not as the Princess of Wales, part 2. Nobody mistakes her for another Duchess, after all. She is the consort of the heir to the throne, the second lady in the land. I for one wish they would drop the Princess Consort nonsense. If anything set a bad example, that announcement did far more damage than the Duchess of Cornwall title. She should be Queen, end of discussion.

Charles does do well in his official capacity. There is no reason why he cannot be king. Although, he should always strive to live a life worthy of the admiration of his subjects as should all monarchs in public and in private. He should not get a pass on bad behavior just because he will be King. Respect is earned. Why push William to the forefront? Let him live life a little with a wife and family before he has to assume the awesome responsibility as King. Charles has been working towards it for years, he's prepared.

How do you justify being a monarchist when you are ready to roll on them the minute they do something you dislike? Is Queen Elizabeth now to be a parriah after years of hard work and service merely because it has been suggested that she might have maybe possibly in theory supposedly..yadda yadda have suggested that Camilla not attend? How do you mourn Camilla's treatment as a second class citizen by harkening back to the glorious days of Queen Mary when the monarchy was respected without question when in those days

1. Charles and Diana would never have been allowed to divorce in the first place.
2. Diana, if caught having an affair, would have been exiled to the continent without her children and brought back for rare occasional duties as POW.
3. Camilla would have to enter Clarence House via the back door at nightfall.
4. The public at large would never be told of 1, 2 or 3.

All this because a couple of young men wanted to remember their mother?
  #1218  
Old 08-29-2007, 02:03 AM
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I was just reading about her not attending on another site... I believe Camilla is doing the "right" thing, but as she has been known to do, is not doing it in the right manner. I hate to venture off topic, but I think this is where the split of hating/liking her comes to play. Diana was a stylish woman who had a sense of class and dignity to her. She had an air of, even if it was falsely made, suffering for others/her cause. While Camilla is very blunt, and brass at times, and one can clearly see if she only does things for self fulfillment. Royality are to do the best for their people, not themselves. It seems every chance the Dutchess gets to prove she can better "others" before herself, she fails. Back on topic, I'm glad someone with her mannerisms did not go.
  #1219  
Old 08-29-2007, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by love_cc View Post
Probably I am over tolerating about his weak character which should not appear in a man who will be king.
Love_cc,

I do not, for one moment, believe Charles to be a weak character. He has certain, admirable strengths and character and finds a great deal of purpose in his life. If he's deluded by hangers-on, why, we all would be in the same circumstances, of this I'm sure. To me, that's understandable.

My one and only criticism of him is that now, as before, he is not a good husband. I want him to disregard the herd and proclaim Camilla as The Princess of Wales! I am convinced that the integrity of the monarchy's future depends on him providing succour to his wife, probably more than he's aware.
  #1220  
Old 08-29-2007, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
The thing that troubles me with all the hoopla over the memorial is, at what point are some considering it to be official? I confess I really don't know myself. Is it, isn't it? The royal family (yes, I know, minus Camilla) are attending. But is their attendance going to be as The Royal Family (with all that entails) or as Diana's former in-laws? I genuinely believe that the Queen is attending at the request of her grandsons, not at the request of a future king to a queen. AFAIK there are no heads of state (or even minor royals) attending. No major governmental members in their official capacity. A holiday hasn't been declared. So I have trouble seeing how it can be claimed as an official event. I'm sure the "well, my tax money is paying for it" argument can be made, but at what point is the royal family's income theirs to do as they please? What would be the eventual progression of that line of thought? Should every tax payer have a say in what car Prince Charles buys for his sons, or what suits they get to wear also? Maybe William is covering the expenses out of the money he inherited from Diana's estate this year. How would that make it an official event?

An offical event would require that Camilla attend in her royal capacity. Her exclusion would be insulting. If it's not an official event, Camilla's attendance must be considered. At an official event, she most certainly attends and is an HRH and the consort of the Prince of Wales with all the respect due to her that the title requires. At an unofficial event, the overwhelming majority of the time she attends and is the loving wife of a loving husband with all the respect due to her that that relationship requires. But the memorial, in its most likely unofficial capacity and given her well known history with the deceased, is probably one time when she should have made a graceful retreat. Her position would be that of wife, not consort, and sometimes with wives there are sticky situations. It doesn't make her a second class citizen. The lack of her attendance at the memorial should in no way mar her position in the royal family. If you genuinely admire her, her reluctance to attend in the first place should have been supported. Why make her feel uncomfortable? Do you want her there for her dignity or is it for your comfort that she attends?
See, it's posts like that which make me think they'd do a darn sight better if they used our posters as their advisors than the idiots they've got now. If they'd thought to ask themselves this question earlier on, we could have avoided a whole lot of grief.
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