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  #861  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:31 PM
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If BeatrixFan doesn't want a system where short-term public opinion rules, he shouldn't be hankering after a republic with an elected president, he should be wishing for the monarchy to grow a backbone.
No, quite the opposite. I expect short-term public opinion to rule in a republic, not in a monarchy. I am happy to see short-term public opinion rule in a system that is built on it, not on a system that is apparantly built on years of success.

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I repeat, IN MY EYES, this has no bearing on her status in the Royal Family. For crying out loud, she will be the one sitting next to Charles if and when he does get crowned, so how is that a second class citizen? She is attempting at least to behave in with tact and grace, and is that not what you would want in a future consort?
She hasn't behaved with tact and grace, the civil service have made her bow to the working classes and as soon as the Royal Family does that then they've lost their bearings. This makes her every bit a second class member of the Royal Family and even when she sits next to Charles when he's crowned, there'll still be this loony fringe expecting her to make some concession to the memory of Diana. This is exactly why I'm so annoyed for goodness sake, doesn't anyone else see what this signifies? It signifies that Camilla will never be able to do anything without firstly genuflecting to Diana's memory and she can't operate as a consort if she has to do that. She, and the rest of the Royal Family barring those idiotic boys who are to blame for all this, have once again had to bow to the demands of commoners and in my mind, that makes them totally unworthy to continue in their positions.
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  #862  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Regina View Post
I agree 100% with you. Not only in Europe or US, but also in South America etiquette demand the former mistress doesn't go to the Memorial Service. If people do the contrary, that's up with them but etiquette demands this.
What you have missed, is that Camilla is now his wife. If we are sticking to the letter of etiquette, it is unusual to have a memorial service for a serial adulteress, attended by her ex husband and ex in laws, is it not?
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  #863  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:34 PM
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Unfortunately, one can not poll the entire British Population. All polls run by reputable firms are only a sampling ( wide spread) of a particular group. In this case apparently the sampling was of every day Brits, and that is what is being used. Perhaps on another day with another user group the results would have been different. Unfortunately I don't think so.
Yes, but there's a bit of a problem with the Mail. Sometimes when they've published one of their anti-Camilla rants, several of us (not just Camilla supporters) have written into the Comments section to point out factual errors or to put another point of view, and I don't think any of our comments have ever been published. The Comments sections instead are full of "Camilla is an evil person, poor Diana!" "Diana was perfect and Camilla is evil!" "Charles must step down and let William be King!" etc etc etc. Given how biassed the Mail's reporting is, and given how selective they are with the comments they choose to publish, I don't believe any poll of theirs on this topic can be trusted. It's fairly well known that, depending on how the questions are worded and the sample is selected, polls can be manipulated, and nothing about the Mail's treatment of this issue suggests that they have any interest in being fair.
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  #864  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:36 PM
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Well then, it is a bit sad that even those who support Camilla are helping to turn this into a disaster by letting this mess turn them into as rabid supporters of Camilla as Dianas supporters are of her. If nothing else, the whole mess should have taught us all better.
Just my idea. But the reality is that someone started this thread, so I think we just have to cope with it. The problem is that we're dealing here with someone who's alive and someone who's dead and that always is an unbalanced discussion, but not less interesting, of course.

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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
I repeat, IN MY EYES, this has no bearing on her status in the Royal Family. For crying out loud, she will be the one sitting next to Charles if and when he does get crowned, so how is that a second class citizen? She is attempting at least to behave in with tact and grace, and is that not what you would want in a future consort?
I beg to differ. When you're living in a monarchy, the royal family is one of the symbols that represents your country. You want them to stick together and stand up for each other at any cost. They're one of the stabile factors who will be around on a long term. If there's a public event, they should be there as a whole. Not just the ones the press wants to see. For example: when Beatrix had Mabelgate going on, she stood behing her son and her future daughter-in-law and that showed strength. People might not have liked it back then, but at least it is clear. One knows what one can expect. With royals backing out of events or making excuses to the press, one doesn't. You don't want your royal family to look like a bunch of whuzzies, crawling into a corner every time the press invents another stir. I mean, remember Philippe of Belgium telling the press to be nice to him? I was ashamed to my very core and I'm not even Belgian. I have the same feeling now, mixed with some realy pity towards Camilla, because she really can't do anything good, it seems.

In the end I think it boils down to this: they should never have had this memorial service and even if they did, they should have been there, all of them. At least that's a clear statement. To the public and to the press: we're here to stay, this is who we are, deal with it.
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  #865  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
They should have been advised to know their place and their place isn't to dictate to their betters. They should have been advised not to have a memorial service at all, it wasn't needed, it's caused division and hurt, it's completely bashed Camilla in the worst way and it was totally unnessecary. They should have been advised that their grandmother is actually the one in charge and no amount of falling out of clubs with chavvy bints will change that. Their grandmother is the Queen and she should have put her foot down and said no, especially when we all know she really doesn't want to go. They're responsible for this farce and I hope they get their come uppance. They don't warrant their titles, they're a disgrace to the name Windsor.
I think what is happening is that Prince William and Prince Harry are creating or attempting to create an identity and court from that of their father's.They are old enough and have enough cause to have the need to form their own court. I truly believe they are trying to creatively balance out the memory of their mother with their Windsorian upbringing and it is a very delicate and dicey matter, indeed.

They walk a tightrope...they have embraced the reality of life outside their palace walls but they are bound by birthright and duty to live by their Windsor upbringing. Actually what we might be seeing is what Diana fought so hard for...for them to be themselves amongst the old guard of the royal family. We can't give up on them now. The "farce" this memorial has become is their first attempts to have their own voice. I applaud them while I wince at the problems and criticisms they have faced.
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  #866  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:37 PM
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Whatever else she was, she was the Princes mother. That means that they should have the right to love and honor her.
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  #867  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
Erm, I think that Diana made quite clear her thoughts on the matter when she said "there were three of us in the marriage"

And I guess I am assuming. Diana took what Camilla thought was rightfully her place. I would not be too kindly disposed to her were it me.
Perhaps Elspeth can set the record straight regardind leaked conversations between C and C.
A bitter vindictive tv interview that Diana was said to regret. None of us knows what Diana thought of Charles or Camilla near the end of her life. We certainly don't have Camillas thoughts on Diana in early 1997 do we. As Camilla has never spoken out, in any way and was to all intents and purposes happy with her life, I wouldn't think she had any thoughts that Diana had taken her place. After all, as The Diana fans tell it, Charles made sure Camilla knew she was the love of his life. Camilla never wanted the constraints of marriage to the PoW, IMO.
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  #868  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:40 PM
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That means that they should have the right to love and honor her.
And I don't deny it. But they have no right to publicly humiliate their stepmother or force this Di fest onto anyone else. I pay taxes for them to work, not to organise this sort of thing. Have a private memorial service, don't tell anyone it's happening but what they've done is unforgivable and just reinforces in my mind that they're completely and utterly useless. They're certainly not real Princes of the realm.
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  #869  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
Erm, I think that Diana made quite clear her thoughts on the matter when she said "there were three of us in the marriage"

And I guess I am assuming. Diana took what Camilla thought was rightfully her place. I would not be too kindly disposed to her were it me.

Also, I think that there were some taped phone conversations or something of that ilk leaked to the media of conversations between C and C, and I believe Camilla was not too impressed with Diana.

Not to mention, would you be very happy with the woman who caused the man you love such headache? I wouldn't.

Perhaps Elspeth can set the record straight regardind leaked conversations between C and C.
The only leaked conversation I know of is the Camillagate one. I think some of the others - reports that Camilla referred to Diana as a pathetic creature or whatever - are second-hand reports, and I don't know how reliable they might be.
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  #870  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Maxie View Post
In the end I think it boils down to this: they should never have had this memorial service and even if they did, they should have been there, all of them. At least that's a clear statement. To the public and to the press: we're here to stay, this is who we are, deal with it.
All or nothing, I like that. What makes it so much more disappointing is that it seemed like Camilla was going to make it and stick to the decision after all. But even if she was going to the service, the royal family would only be half a family there. Just the Queen, Prince Philip, Edward, Sophie, and the Clarence House camp. Now Camilla makes one less. It's sad.

But I truly am starting to feel just as BeatrixFan and Polly feel, that the whole memorial service was a mistake from the get-go.
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  #871  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Yes, but there's a bit of a problem with the Mail. Sometimes when they've published one of their anti-Camilla rants, several of us (not just Camilla supporters) have written into the Comments section to point out factual errors or to put another point of view, and I don't think any of our comments have ever been published. The Comments sections instead are full of "Camilla is an evil person, poor Diana!" "Diana was perfect and Camilla is evil!" "Charles must step down and let William be King!" etc etc etc. Given how biassed the Mail's reporting is, and given how selective they are with the comments they choose to publish, I don't believe any poll of theirs on this topic can be trusted. It's fairly well known that, depending on how the questions are worded and the sample is selected, polls can be manipulated, and nothing about the Mail's treatment of this issue suggests that they have any interest in being fair.
Aha, I was not aware that it was an irreputable source that had organized the poll. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by Maxie View Post
I beg to differ. When you're living in a monarchy, the royal family is one of the symbols that represents your country. You want them to stick together and stand up for each other at any cost. They're one of the stabile factors who will be around on a long term. If there's a public event, they should be there as a whole. Not just the ones the press wants to see. For example: when Beatrix had Mabelgate going on, she stood behing her son and her future daughter-in-law and that showed strength. People might not have liked it back then, but at least it is clear. One knows what one can expect. With royals backing out of events or making excuses to the press, one doesn't. You don't want your royal family to look like a bunch of whuzzies, crawling into a corner every time the press invents another stir. I mean, remember Philippe of Belgium telling the press to be nice to him? I was ashamed to my very core and I'm not even Belgian. I have the same feeling now, mixed with some realy pity towards Camilla, because she really can't do anything good, it seems.

In the end I think it boils down to this: they should never have had this memorial service and even if they did, they should have been there, all of them. At least that's a clear statement. To the public and to the press: we're here to stay, this is who we are, deal with it.
I agree, a clear statement one way or the other would have been better then this disaster. In an ideal world, the princes would have honored their mother in private, and as I stated before, not put Camilla through this. However this is the reality, and they need to deal with it. They have made it clear that they love and respect their step mother, and they do not consider her a second class anyone. The only people who consider this a slap in the face of Camilla are those that can not see it for what it is. A woman trying to do the best she can in an INCREDIBLY difficult situation, where she has no choice but to listen to public opinion, as misguided as it may be.

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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
The only leaked conversation I know of is the Camillagate one. I think some of the others - reports that Camilla referred to Diana as a pathetic creature or whatever - are second-hand reports, and I don't know how reliable they might be.
Aha. I stand corrected. None the less, I have a feeling, just my own, that she would not have considered Diana a friend. Especially since Diana was never particularly kind to her. But I am only going on how I would feel in a particular situation.
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  #872  
Old 08-26-2007, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
Aha. I stand corrected. None the less, I have a feeling, just my own, that she would not have considered Diana a friend. Especially since Diana was never particularly kind to her. But I am only going on how I would feel in a particular situation.
No, they would never have been friends (at least not since the first Wales marriage "irretrievably broke down") but at the same time, I think at this stage in the game, if diana was alive and 46 years old, they would be very different women and they would be courteous as any situation might require.
I think they were/are both good women, and now Camilla is a very mature woman, and I believe Diana would be a mature woman at this stage too. So while they would never be friends, I believe they would be mature adults about each other.
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  #873  
Old 08-26-2007, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
She hasn't behaved with tact and grace, the civil service have made her bow to the working classes and as soon as the Royal Family does that then they've lost their bearings.
Enough with the "working classes," please. That's painting with far too broad a brush. Quite apart from which, there were times during the 20th century (and I'm old enough to remember some of them even if you aren't) where the working classes were supportive of the royals when various intellectual and pseudo-intellectual branches of the middle class had written the royal family off as irrelevant. The royal family has been successful because it was responsive to public opinion over time in the 20th century, but it was a measured response to genuine shifts in public opinion, not this sort of panicked reaction to short-term rabble-rousing by the tabloid press. That's a very dangerous development.

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This makes her every bit a second class member of the Royal Family and even when she sits next to Charles when he's crowned, there'll still be this loony fringe expecting her to make some concession to the memory of Diana.
The concessions being demanded by the loony fringe are that she not be crowned, of course. And that he not be crowned either, but that they live in exile like the Duke and Duchess of Windsor while William is crowned in Charles's place. The fact that this is something that William might not want seems not to enter into the equation.

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This is exactly why I'm so annoyed for goodness sake, doesn't anyone else see what this signifies? It signifies that Camilla will never be able to do anything without firstly genuflecting to Diana's memory and she can't operate as a consort if she has to do that. She, and the rest of the Royal Family barring those idiotic boys who are to blame for all this, have once again had to bow to the demands of commoners and in my mind, that makes them totally unworthy to continue in their positions.
If you see this as just royals bowing to commoners, I think you're missing the true danger of the situation by a long way. Britain IS a democracy, you know, and the monarch is part of the government. I hope the government continues to be responsive to the people or we're all in trouble. However, this isn't the people in general, it's mischief-making by extremists with an agenda. The ironic thing is that the Diana fanatics who are being pandered to by the press are all for the monarchy to remain so that Diana's son can be king, whereas a large part of the press that's enabling this nonsense is angling for a republic.

This was a no-win situation from the start. If they'd decided to hold a quiet memorial rather than a public spectacle, the Diana fanatics and the Mail would be wailing loud and long about trashing Diana's memory, trying to airbrush her from history, ignoring the wishes of her poor boys just so that Camilla can be paraded as the future queen and so on. If they'd had this memorial and arranged things so that Charles and Camilla were out of the country or something, it'd be seized on by the Diana fanatics as proof positive that Camilla was a coward who felt guilty about being responsible for everything bad that ever happened to Diana; if they'd invited her and she'd refused at the start, the same accusations would be flying around; if she'd turned up at the service it'd be proof that she was a shameless and heartless person who was trashing Diana's memory; and with the present situation we're dealing with accusations that she has poor judgement. And in every single one of those cases, she'd have been blamed for grabbing the limelight and diverting attention from Diana whereas in reality it's the press itself which has thrust the attention on her.

So the tabloids make a huge profit from keeping this issue on the front burner regardless of how it had played out, and they absolve themselves from the responsibility for doing it by blaming Camilla for grabbing headlines, and large numbers of people seem to be ready to swallow their version of reality, just like after Diana died when the press turned the blame from themselves and placed it on the royal family.

I don't suppose anything was ever going to repair the damaged relationship between Charles and the press, but this issue might have gone a long way to ensure that William's relationship with the press is just as bad as his father's.
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  #874  
Old 08-26-2007, 07:08 PM
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Enough with the "working classes," please. That's painting with far too broad a brush.
Well the loons of the Diana Circle (who have been accomodated and bowed down to) are surely working class? No professional person would act in the way they're acting. And yes, alot of the working classes were once supportive of the Royal Family but now they go on what the press thinks and as the press loves to follow the same tack as the Diana Circle, the working class are instilled with a view to hate Camilla. Yes it's being broad but for the majority, I should say it was true. But you miss my point, the Royal Family shouldn't have to shift. They aren't there to shift, they are there to stay resolute and stick to their guns.

Quote:
If you see this as just royals bowing to commoners, I think you're missing the true danger of the situation by a long way. Britain IS a democracy, you know, and the monarch is part of the government. I hope the government continues to be responsive to the people or we're all in trouble.
The monarch is just a spokesperson these days. She just stamps and seals, the Government aren't the ones taking the flak over this memorial service are they? No, it's the Royal Family - again. This is happening - again and Diana is at the heart of it - again. Democracy or no democracy, the monarchy is supposed to set a tone, not just do as commoners tell them. The Queen isn't dictated to by building-site opinion, nor should Camilla be.
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  #875  
Old 08-26-2007, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
The only leaked conversation I know of is the Camillagate one. I think some of the others - reports that Camilla referred to Diana as a pathetic creature or whatever - are second-hand reports, and I don't know how reliable they might be.
We can "Squidy Tape" for Diana and James Gilbey during the time of Christmas 1989 in Sandringham. I think the "ridiculous creative"stuff came from Andrew Morton's "Diana: in her own words", because he said Diana kept the notes from Charles' suitcase and copied them to pass to the lawyers for the proof of adultery. Before I have more reliable evidence about this, I refuse to fully believe what he writes.
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  #876  
Old 08-26-2007, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
I agree, a clear statement one way or the other would have been better then this disaster. In an ideal world, the princes would have honored their mother in private, and as I stated before, not put Camilla through this. However this is the reality, and they need to deal with it. They have made it clear that they love and respect their step mother, and they do not consider her a second class anyone. The only people who consider this a slap in the face of Camilla are those that can not see it for what it is. A woman trying to do the best she can in an INCREDIBLY difficult situation, where she has no choice but to listen to public opinion, as misguided as it may be.
I understand why you see it like this, but I just can't understand why William and Harry's wish has to be overruled by public opinion. A memorial service, organised by the princes, now has become organised by public opinion in a certain way. I think that's bad, it's not 'Idols' you know. 'Who are we going to vote away today? Oh look, it's Camilla. Bye Camilla! Good luck to you!'

I'll stick to my conclusion: this memorial service is totally unnessecary, it only hurt people. I wish they would have thought about the consequences beforehand.
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  #877  
Old 08-26-2007, 07:13 PM
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Those boys don't think Maxie, they've bought into the hype that as the spawn of a goddess they can do whatever the hell they like and everyone else can go hang.
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  #878  
Old 08-26-2007, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Well the loons of the Diana Circle (who have been accomodated and bowed down to) are surely working class? No professional person would act in the way they're acting.
I wouldn't be too sure of that.

Quote:
And yes, alot of the working classes were once supportive of the Royal Family but now they go on what the press thinks and as the press loves to follow the same tack as the Diana Circle, the working class are instilled with a view to hate Camilla. Yes it's being broad but for the majority, I should say it was true.
I think these days it's probably more across the whole class spectrum.

Quote:
But you miss my point, the Royal Family shouldn't have to shift. They aren't there to shift, they are there to stay resolute and stick to their guns.
They've shifted in the past and it's been good for them. It was in response to public opinion that the name of the royal house itself was changed, for one thing. One of the reasons the British monarchy survived when some others didn't is that the British monarchy managed to update and adapt itself to the point where it was still relevant.


Quote:
The monarch is just a spokesperson these days. She just stamps and seals, the Government aren't the ones taking the flak over this memorial service are they? No, it's the Royal Family - again. This is happening - again and Diana is at the heart of it - again. Democracy or no democracy, the monarchy is supposed to set a tone, not just do as commoners tell them. The Queen isn't dictated to by building-site opinion, nor should Camilla be.
It isn't just building-site opinion, it's opinion across the social board; you can see that from this forum if nothing else.
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  #879  
Old 08-26-2007, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Those boys don't think Maxie, they've bought into the hype that as the spawn of a goddess they can do whatever the hell they like and everyone else can go hang.
Well, they're not the first royals in the course of history that didn't see something coming. It has to bite them in the face, otherwise they won't notice. Maybe they should log into some forums from time to time to check what we wise people say on several matters...
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  #880  
Old 08-26-2007, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Regina View Post
Not only in Europe or US, but also in South America etiquette demand the former mistress doesn't go to the Memorial Service.
Etiquette 'demands' nothing. Etiquette is totally voluntarily and does only give guidelines and advice on 'how to handle in social situations'. It is totally up to you or me to follow an etiquette and -if yes- to which extent.

I have never ever seen any etiquette in which a second legally wedded wife should be barred.
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