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  #561  
Old 08-15-2007, 08:55 PM
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Exactly. And what I don't get is why? If being so defensive and being so illogical and steadfast in those beliefs brought an end to poverty, famine and war then I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with them. But does any of it really matter?
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  #562  
Old 08-15-2007, 09:10 PM
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You know I take more of a distant, strictly historical point of view. I am not a passionate fan/devotee of any one particular claque. My personal opinion is that by the end there were no innocent bystanders. However, I do object to the revisionist history (whitewashing) which some 'party members' subscribe to. It just makes the opposition rabid! In either direction! Yes Prince Charles was being pushed hard by everyone to marry a 'Suitable Girl' ie someone from the right background and wihout prior lovers. No he was not in love with her. Yes he was in love with Someone Else, but was not 'allowed' to marry /dawdled while making the choice about SE. Yes, when that sunk in, Suitable Girl had affairs. Can we all accept the above as the truth?

If we can accept it and not get mired down in the she did this he said that...
In order to make it not about Camilla the I suggest:

If Camilla attends the memorial, it should be a in a low key, not front row and big jewels kind of way. IMO a bit of subtlety and discretion is what the moment calls for.

If you really want to distract them, let William and Kate 'drop the bomb'!
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  #563  
Old 08-15-2007, 09:11 PM
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Now tell me, if Charles had died and Diana was alived: do you think Diana would allow her children organize a concert in Charles's memory? In fact, we don't know, we can't answer that but I doubt it.
I have to disagree here. I believe with all my heart Diana would have "allowed" her sons to honor their father. It wouldn't be a question of her "allowing" them. They would just do it. Just like, with Charles, why did he need to "allow" them to do the concert? They wanted to, they did it. What is this business of "allowing"?
  #564  
Old 08-15-2007, 09:11 PM
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But does it matter who did what first and why? It happened, it's over and there's point living everyday yearning for a yesterday that will never come. With all the hurt and pain in this silly old world of ours, what can we gain from defending people we never knew and never will know? I've been perhaps too tough on Diana and when I look at it from afar, there really is no reason to be just as there's no reason for people to be tough on Camilla. You know, Brooke Astor died this week and she lived to 105. When she died, she left her mark on New York and was hailed as making every day count. I'd rather like to follow her example and so instead of us all building a fort to throw ammo for a side we have no cause to defend so passionately, why don't we call the past the past, drop the blame game and try to make life a little better for someone else? You know, I don't agree with everything Diana did but I believe the main cause for her unofficial Sainthood was her charity work yes? Well, instead of her supporters and followers taking up arms against Charles and Camilla with such enthusiasm, why don't they channel that enthusiasm into one of Diana's charities? Because you know, as we sit here popping at each other, there's children dying in the third world who'd actually consider our arguments really quite trivial. I believe that instead of engaging in full blown warfare on behalf of people we have no right to judge, we should instead turn our attention to something much more important and then when we shuffle off this mortal coil, we can say, "We changed something" rather than "We spent our lives bitching over three people we never met, we never spoke too and who never really cared what we thought about them anyway!". Sermon over.
I totally agree.
What I find really, really disgusting is those Pro -Diana who planed everything to screw up this memorial. Instead of throwing eggs, they should distribute leaflets for Diana's charities or something like that. I know many people who liked Diana would want to do this. And it bothers me that we are so many to think this way but it seems that all the negative part comes up and doesn't leave place to the wonderful things that could be made.
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  #565  
Old 08-15-2007, 10:28 PM
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I totally agree.
What I find really, really disgusting is those Pro -Diana who planed everything to screw up this memorial. Instead of throwing eggs, they should distribute leaflets for Diana's charities or something like that. I know many people who liked Diana would want to do this. And it bothers me that we are so many to think this way but it seems that all the negative part comes up and doesn't leave place to the wonderful things that could be made.

I'm not pro-Diana -- nor am I anti-Diana. Whether the people involved are Royalty -- or not -- it would be in the lowest possible taste and highest level of insensitivity, for a former mistress to attend the memorial of a wife who blamed the breakdown of her marriage on her.
  #566  
Old 08-15-2007, 10:45 PM
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In your opinion. However, the question begging to be asked is, why do you care about this so much when it has zero impact on your life. It has zero impact on any of our lives.
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  #567  
Old 08-16-2007, 12:58 AM
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BeatrixFan, you have such a way with words! I love your posts--
yes, why indeed do any of us really care? That is a good question, and based on the responses to this topic alone--it is obvious that a great many of us do care. I'll go first:
I wouldn't say I care--not like I care about my son getting the right second grade teacher, or if I get an A in my courses for my graduate degree--but I do care. Does anything in my world hinge on Camilla's attendance at the memorial? Not at all. But, having been a true devotee of the British Royal Family for most of my years, and taking tea with my grandparents and hearing "God Save the Queen" all of my life, I do feel a certain kinship with that far-off island. I have always believed in doing the right thing, and always being gracious and behaving like a lady. As a child, I was enamoured with Prince Charles and Princess Diana--I was up early to watch that wedding when I was 7 years old. What a memory! It always makes me smile--to see England turned out like it was for such a day, to see a real fairytale. It was exciting--even now, seeing photos of it reminds me of the emotions of that day.
And then, the fairly tale, like most of them tend to do, fell apart. Allegations of "he said, she said, they said....." filled the newspapers, radios, televisions, and bookstores. To me, the illusion was shattered--the royal family was on its way to becoming headline after headline on the National Enquirer.
But, part of me always wondered about the girl Charles had loved for all those years, the one that was a better match for him--Camilla. Even though the demise of the fairytale was tragic and tainted in many ways, I am pleased to see one love story end well. The controversy surrounding Camilla was harsh and yes, maybe even deserved on some level--but she always stood by her man and was as discreet as she could be. I watched their wedding, and while it may not have had the pomp and circumstance of Charles' wedding to Diana, I have to say as an adult I appreciated the road they had travelled to get to this point and I was very touched seeing the longtime loves being able to legally create a new life for themselves. It is long overdue, and they have really brought an unexpected sparkle to England again. And, in many ways, I think they have gone a long way to bringing back dignity to how Royals are expected to behave and support each other.
The explanation for my interest having been said (and it was long, I apologize), I will once again say that Camilla's step-children have made a point of inviting her to their late mother's memorial; this is a clear statement that Camilla has been accepted into the family and is loved for who she is. If William and Harry want her to be a presence there, then that is the way it is. Camilla has always shown herself to be the "stand by your man type" no matter what, and the boys clearly see the love that she feels for their father, and by extension for them as well. This is a memorial service, and Camilla is capable of honoring Diana as a mother to her step-children, and of honoring Diana for her charity work.
I have to say that this is by far the most interesting discussion on The Royal Forums, but it is getting a bit fanatical, in my opinion. Maybe that is what makes it interesting?
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  #568  
Old 08-16-2007, 01:11 AM
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I think the Duchess of Cornwall should attend the service. For many different reasons. The first reason is that she knew exactly what life would be like as being "the other woman" and how she would be loathed by some. This service is just another one of the crosses she (and Charles) should bear for their actions. We all know that people must face consequences for their actions, and i think Camilla's hesitance to attend this service is one of those consequences and she must accept it and attend.

The second reason she should attend is to show some family unity and to show the public that maybe they should consider letting bygones be bygones. That this is the reality of the situation, she is Charles' wife now. I think that her attendance will show that Diana's kids have forgiven and accepted her (Camilla) and so should everyone else. I think that if she doesn't attend, it will just show that there is a division in the family and i dont think they want to show that.
  #569  
Old 08-16-2007, 03:52 AM
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In your opinion. However, the question begging to be asked is, why do you care about this so much when it has zero impact on your life. It has zero impact on any of our lives.
That's not entirely true, BF. The perception and reception of Camilla, for instance, may well have a profound impact on my life insofar as the Duchess' actions provide ammunition to those who are adamant that Australia will become a republic, as soon as possible. To this end, the press has been full of Diana for weeks now. It is my opinion that the Duchess suffers greatly, by inference.

I also think that the fact that we're here at all shows that we do care about the royal family and the issues which surround them. If Australia becomes a republic it will indeed have more than a zero impact on my life.
  #570  
Old 08-16-2007, 04:49 AM
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That's not entirely true, BF. The perception and reception of Camilla, for instance, may well have a profound impact on my life insofar as the Duchess' actions provide ammunition to those who are adamant that Australia will become a republic, as soon as possible. To this end, the press has been full of Diana for weeks now. It is my opinion that the Duchess suffers greatly, by inference.

I also think that the fact that we're here at all shows that we do care about the royal family and the issues which surround them. If Australia becomes a republic it will indeed have more than a zero impact on my life.

May I ask what press has been 'full of Diana for weeks now' as I have not seen much coverage at all - the Women's Weekly has a DVD this month and New Idea are running a series of booklets in her memory but I would hardly call that 'full of Diana for weeks now'.

I don't think Camilla's attendence will have the slightest impact on Australians voting for a Republic but rather the fact that the majority of Australians do think that we should have our own Head of State and not a foreigner.
  #571  
Old 08-16-2007, 06:23 AM
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I'm not saying the contrary or blaming Camilla. It's just that blaming only Diana for having affairs with married men is easy. Those men weren't force to go with her, so the wives should think of why did they had this affair and don't take it all on the Princess don't you think ?

Anyways, I never said that all her sadness was caused by Camilla. Diana was sad in her marriage from the beggining, Camilla or not. Charles wasn't the guy for her. Camilla was just the surface, beneath it there was many more problems.
I am certainly not blaming everything on Diana, but you appear to be one of the few Diana 'fans' able to accept the concept that to embark on an affair takes two and that Camilla was not the main and only source of Diana's unhappiness.
  #572  
Old 08-16-2007, 06:35 AM
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The unfortunate thing about this whole service, is that a few members of the public have decided they have more right to forgive Camilla or not, than William or Harry.

Worse still, some members of the public have decided that Camilla asking for forgiveness from God during her wedding blessing (in front of the nation), isn't good enough, that they have more right to judge her than the God so many profess to believe in.
  #573  
Old 08-16-2007, 06:53 AM
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I am certainly not blaming everything on Diana, but you appear to be one of the few Diana 'fans' able to accept the concept that to embark on an affair takes two and that Camilla was not the main and only source of Diana's unhappiness.
Thank you, I'm glad you understood my thoughts . It's stupid for people to think this way for affairs in general but refusing to accept it on the one of Charles and Camilla. If Diana was sad in her marriage, it doesn't mean Charles was happy. IMO they made 'the good choice' by trying to find love, satisfaction, etc. with someone else when they realised that it would never be okay between them. I will never blame them for doing so. When you're deseperate, you don't want to stay this way so you go look for a person that understands you. It's human.
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  #574  
Old 08-16-2007, 07:20 AM
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I thank Camilla should go because William and Harry want's her there. But i do think there will be a very small group who will be giving her a hard time.
  #575  
Old 08-16-2007, 07:48 AM
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That's not entirely true, BF. The perception and reception of Camilla, for instance, may well have a profound impact on my life insofar as the Duchess' actions provide ammunition to those who are adamant that Australia will become a republic, as soon as possible. To this end, the press has been full of Diana for weeks now. It is my opinion that the Duchess suffers greatly, by inference.

I also think that the fact that we're here at all shows that we do care about the royal family and the issues which surround them. If Australia becomes a republic it will indeed have more than a zero impact on my life.
But are the Diana-Camilla wars the only factor in some Australian's desire for a republic? From my friends down under, I gather that the recent popularity of Princess Mary of Denmark, a native Australian, has done its fair share of downgrading the popularity of the BRF in Australia. Apparently when Mary and Fred first visited Australia as a couple, the BRF had a visit down there that got no attention from anybody. All the Australians wanted was Mary because unlike the BRF, Mary was considered one of them.

I think Mary's sheer popularity Down Under has emphasized even more that the British Royal Family as wonderful as they are, are not Australian and there's not a lot they can do about that.
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  #576  
Old 08-16-2007, 08:12 AM
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But are the Diana-Camilla wars the only factor in some Australian's desire for a republic? From my friends down under, I gather that the recent popularity of Princess Mary of Denmark, a native Australian, has done its fair share of downgrading the popularity of the BRF in Australia. Apparently when Mary and Fred first visited Australia as a couple, the BRF had a visit down there that got no attention from anybody. All the Australians wanted was Mary because unlike the BRF, Mary was considered one of them.

I think Mary's sheer popularity Down Under has emphasized even more that the British Royal Family as wonderful as they are, are not Australian and there's not a lot they can do about that.
Austalia is where the 'Di-Mania' began and the Australians (and like the rest of the world after) were crazy about her. They won't become a republic because there's too much to loose. I know you can't replace Diana, but if someone could bring as joy as her in their country they will probably think twice before taking the decision of letting the RF go.
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  #577  
Old 08-16-2007, 08:35 AM
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The second reason she should attend is to show some family unity and to show the public that maybe they should consider letting bygones be bygones. That this is the reality of the situation, she is Charles' wife now. I think that her attendance will show that Diana's kids have forgiven and accepted her (Camilla) and so should everyone else. I think that if she doesn't attend, it will just show that there is a division in the family and i dont think they want to show that.
Where I live, the press has been full of Diana nostalgia, i.e. print medium and television.

I have no difficulty whatsoever with 'letting bygones be bygones' - indeed, I endorse such a view.

The only person who will reap any acrimony at all from this whole trumped-up, tacky, PR exercise is the Duchess.

As unfortunate as I think it, there are great divisions in this allegedly highly dysfunctional family, and I think it woeful that Camilla will 'carry the can' as it were.

In my opinion, if there were any hope of Australians, generally, accepting Camilla as a future Queen, then they're being dashed. Her attendance at this religious and spiritual service may well prove to be 'the last straw'.

Camilla has more common sense than her husband, is my considered opinion.


  #578  
Old 08-16-2007, 09:08 AM
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Where I am in Australia - namely Sydney - there has been virtually no mention, in any media that I watch or read (the four main TV stations and the main papers printed here daily - SMH and Telegraph, plus the major Women's mags) of the service at all.

There is some mention in the two mags that I mentioned earlier of the upcoming anniversary of her death.

Even the concert received very little coverage in the mainstream media, although it was shown live. I know no one who watched it though - they were more interested in the football on that TV that night.

No one I know has heard anything about a service and very few knew about the concert. My friends range in age from teenagers to elderly people and all will vote for a republic next time around, regardless of the question, due to the fact that they think it is time for us to have our own Head of State and most admit to voting against it last time, due to the fact that they didn't like the question not the concept of a republic per se, which fits with many of the opinion polls - that it was the specific question that was lost and not the idea of being a republic that stopped the referendum getting up in 1999.

I suspect that when we have a change of government later this year it will be back on the agenda, even if it isn't mentioned during the election campaign (my local member is a Labor person through and through and he believes that it will come up in caucus within a couple of months of the election with the demand from the backbenchers for a plebiscite by the end of next year with the simple question 'Do you think Australia should be a republic?' If that gets the expected Yes vote then they will move forward with the type of republic. That is what should have happened in 1999 - find out if people actually want a republic and then what method they want to have for choosing the head of state and what powers that head of state will have).

Last week we did our annual 'referendum' vote with the Year 10 students as they have reached that part of the syllabus relating to the 1999 referendum and the vote among this group of 15 - 16 year olds was 96% in favour of a republic - up from 72% the first year we ran it in 2000. The 'postal vote' of their parents was at 94% up from 64% in 2000 and the official vote in the local electorates of 48 - 56% in favour (the students are drawn from five different electorates and we asked the electoral office for the official figures so we can see what is happening.)
  #579  
Old 08-16-2007, 09:18 AM
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Let wait and see Camilla's presence in the service and how the service will be conducted. I doubt there will be many emotional outrages about her presence in the service. Camilla will be just there, sit and listen and join everyone else. She would keep slience and a low-key way to be present for her husband, for her step-sons, for royal family. That's all. After all Camilla is never interested in courting any attention. Even after her engagement was annouced, when the news of the Pope died, she attended the service with Charles but she knew her position.
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Old 08-16-2007, 09:25 AM
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Let wait and see Camilla's presence in the service and how the service will be conducted. I doubt there will be many emotional outrages about her presence in the service. Camilla will be just there, sit and listen and join everyone else. She would keep slience and a low-key way to be present for her husband, for her step-sons, for royal family. That's all. After all Camilla is never interested in courting any attention. Even after her engagement was annouced, when the news of the Pope died, she attended the service with Charles but she knew her position.
If they want to pay respect to Diana, they should concentrate on what PW and PH will be saying instead of staring at Camilla to see if she will do a mistake or whatever.
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