King Charles and Queen Camilla

[love_cc]

I am talking about a longer term. If Camilla were to be called Princess Consort when Prince Charles became King. What shall they rank Camilla after Prince Charles died and William became the King? Princess Consort is a HRH and Queen Consort is a HM. There is a big difference in this. William and his wife will become HMs, how can they deal with Camilla with her title is a HRH?
I will be happy if Camilla becomes HM Queen Camilla. Things will be more easier.

 

[Elspeth]

What is the point of reserving a title for a dead person? That's macabre. Since Diana was divorced from Charles, there's no way she was ever going to be Queen.

Since morganatic marriage isn't part of British law, Camilla will be Queen when Charles becomes King. If she chooses to be known as HRH the Princess Consort - i.e., a Royal Highness rather than Majesty - it'll probably require special legislation. Unlike the present circumstance, when there are a lot of peerages involved and she can choose to be known by any of her titles, the King (and hence his consort) doesn't have subsidiary titles. This Princess Consort business would have to be created specially.

Camilla is at present the Princess of Wales. She's also the Duchess of Cornwall and a whole parade of other titles. She's chosen to be known by her Duchess of Cornwall title, but that doesn't alter the fact that she's also the Princess of Wales.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/04/04/ncam04.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/04/04/ixnewstop.html

 

[Jo of Palatine]

In royalties,first wives are more important,legal and has more power / value than the second wives.For an example,in the case of HM Sultan Haji Hassanal Bolkiah of Brunei.

Maybe you misunderstood the concept of marriages in Europe, when you compare it to the Sultan's marriages?

In European countries, there is only one marriage per person - monogamy. And the spouse from this marriage shares her husband's position, even if she does not want to use the name and/or title. So by law Camilla is HRH The Princess of Wales, the one and only wife of HRH The Prince of Wales. So by law plain Ms. Mabel van Oranje-Wisse-Smit as the one and only legal wife of HRH Johan Friso of Orange-Nassau is HRH Princess Mabel of Oranje-Nassau, even as the princess decides not to use the style she is entitled to.

By law Camilla will be queen. There is no morganatic marriage, no concubinate, nothing to prevent her from being queen, but a law that clearly states that the wife of the king is queen. It's as easy as that.

Diana was divorced, thus she was not longer the wife of the prince of Wales and did not longer share his social position. There is no position like the "Sultana Valide" of the former Osman empire which is the title belonging to the mother of the souverain - even if William had become king while Diana was still alive she still would have been the divorced wife of Prince Charles. Sounds harsh, but that's how it is in Britain and we are talking about Britain here, not about muslim monarchies with different rules like the one in Brunei.

 

[User0501]

I am talking about a longer term. If Camilla were to be called Princess Consort when Prince Charles became King. What shall they rank Camilla after Prince Charles died and William became the King? Princess Consort is a HRH and Queen Consort is a HM. There is a big difference in this. William and his wife will become HMs, how can they deal with Camilla with her title is a HRH?
I will be happy if Camilla becomes HM Queen Camilla. Things will be more easier.

Maybe Camilla can be Dowager Princess Consort.If the British Royal Family can deal of Prince Philip being just a HRH and The Queen as HM,why can't Prince William and his wife deal with Camilla being a HRH whom is not his own natural mother?

 

[User0501]

What is the point of reserving a title for a dead person? That's macabre. Since Diana was divorced from Charles, there's no way she was ever going to be Queen.

Since morganatic marriage isn't part of British law, Camilla will be Queen when Charles becomes King. If she chooses to be known as HRH the Princess Consort - i.e., a Royal Highness rather than Majesty - it'll probably require special legislation. Unlike the present circumstance, when there are a lot of peerages involved and she can choose to be known by any of her titles, the King (and hence his consort) doesn't have subsidiary titles. This Princess Consort business would have to be created specially.

Camilla is at present the Princess of Wales. She's also the Duchess of Cornwall and a whole parade of other titles. She's chosen to be known by her Duchess of Cornwall title, but that doesn't alter the fact that she's also the Princess of Wales.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/04/04/ncam04.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/04/04/ixnewstop.html

If HRH Prince Philip is known as the Duke of Edinburgh and HRH Prince Henrik of Denmark is known as The Prince Consort upon their marriages to Elizabeth II and Margarethe II,then why can't Camilla become HRH The Princess Consort when Prince Charles becomes King Of England?If Camilla is the Princess of Wales then how come Diana is still known as Diana,Princess of Wales?The royal family only stripped Diana from being called HRH not her title of Princess of Wales.

 

[User0501]

Maybe you misunderstood the concept of marriages in Europe, when you compare it to the Sultan's marriages?
In European countries, there is only one marriage per person - monogamy...

If in the European country there is only one marriage per person,then how come Prince Charles married two times? A person need to be married in order to be divorced.So Prince Charles is practising polygamy not monogamy.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

If Camilla is the Princess of Wales then how come Diana is still known as Diana,Princess of Wales?The royal family only stripped Diana from being called HRH not her title of Princess of Wales.

Even if Dianan had still been the wife of The Prince of Wales and thus the holder of the title of "The Princess of Wales" when she died, after her death it could of course have been given to the next wife of The Prince of Wales.

As it is, Diana is not only dead, but was divorced before her death. Charles has legally married Camilla, thus Camilla is HRH The Princess of Wales. Diana was simply Diana, Princess of Wales after her divorce. When Diana married Charles, she took on the family name Diana Windsor and the courtesy title of "The Princess of Wales" as wife of "The Prince of Wales". When she divorced, she (according to British law) could choose between Lady Diana Windsor (the "Lady" being her own title from her father's side - she was the daughter of an earl) or Diana, Princess of Wales as her name! She did not longer have the title of "The Princess of Wales", only was named like that because people knew her under that name, so she decided against Lady Diana Windsor and became Diana, Princess of Wales.

Camilla can't be a "Dowager" as this title is reserved for the mother of the next holder of the title, AFAIK. So if Charles had died while still being Prince of Wales and married to Diana, Diana would have been HRH, The Princess of Wales" till William, then the new Prince of Wales, married. After the marriage her title would have been HRH The Dowager Princess of Wales". If Charles dies before he becomes king, in the current situation Camilla immediately would be HRH Camilla, Princess of Wales, called HRH Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall because she is not the mother of the new prince, thus can't be a Dowager Princess. But at the moment Camilla is by law HRH The Princess of Wales, The Duchess of Cornwall, The Duchess of Rothesay, while she prefers not to be called like that. None the less, she is entitled to that style.

Hope it's clearer now.

 

[User0501]

Even if Dianan had still been the wife of The Prince of Wales and thus the holder of the title of "The Princess of Wales" when she died, after her death it could of course have been given to the next wife of The Prince of Wales.

As it is, Diana is not only dead, but was divorced before her death. Charles has legally married Camilla. Hope it's clearer now.

If Diana had still been the wife of The Prince of Wales and thus the holder of the title of "The Princess of Wales" when she died,wouldn't the title of "The Princess of Wales" be transferred (given) to the wife of the next Prince of Wales (wife of Prince William) instead to the next wife of the current Prince of Wales (Camilla,Duchess of Cornwall)?Since Prince William is not elected as the Prince of Wales and he is not married,shouldn't the title of "The Princess of Wales" be skipped intead of Camilla being called as "The Princess of Wales"?

 

[Charlotte1]

If Diana had still been the wife of The Prince of Wales and thus the holder of the title of "The Princess of Wales" when she died,wouldn't the title of "The Princess of Wales" be transferred (given) to the wife of the next Prince of Wales (wife of Prince William) instead to the next wife of the current Prince of Wales (Camilla,Duchess of Cornwall)?Since Prince William is not elected as the Prince of Wales and he is not married,shouldn't the title of "The Princess of Wales" be skipped intead of Camilla being called as "The Princess of Wales"?

No, whomever the Prince of Wales is married to at the time, is "The Princess of Wales", the title doesn't skip. The important person who actually holds the title is "The Prince of Wales' his spouse is secondary, they just have the spousal title. So whomever is the spouse is 'The Princess of Wales'.
If Diana were still alive, the situation would be that she would be (courtesy title) 'Diana, Princess of Wales' and Camilla "The Princess of Wales".

( Historically there have been many "Princesses of Wales", Diana isn't even the most famous or beloved, that was Queen Alexandra as Princess of Wales. There's no need to see 'princess of wales' as Diana's title as it belonged to many others)

 

[Jo of Palatine]

If Diana had still been the wife of The Prince of Wales and thus the holder of the title of "The Princess of Wales" when she died,wouldn't the title of "The Princess of Wales" be transferred (given) to the wife of the next Prince of Wales (wife of Prince William) instead to the next wife of the current Prince of Wales (Camilla,Duchess of Cornwall)?Since Prince William is not elected as the Prince of Wales and he is not married,shouldn't the title of "The Princess of Wales" be skipped intead of Camilla being called as "The Princess of Wales"?

You seem to misunderstand the concept behind the sharing of titles:

The wife shares all of her husband's titles by courtesy. That means she is not getting these titles of her own, but is allowed to use them as long as she is married to the holder of these titles. There is no title of a "Princess of wales" in her own right, there is only the title of "The Princess of Wales" courtesy of the woman's marriage to "The Prince of Wales".

As long as Prince Charles lives as the heir of his mother, the queen, he is "The Prince of Wales" in his own right, so by courtesy his wife is "The Princess of Wales". If Prince Charles dies before his mother dies, prince William becomes immediately The Duke of Cornwall and The Duke of Rothesay (in the Scottish peerage) plus all Prince Charles' other titles except the title of "The Prince of Wales". It's up to the queen to create her grandson "The Prince of Wales" or not.

When Charles divorced Diana, she stopped being the wife of "The Prince of wales", thus she had no longer the right to the courtesy title of "The Princess of Wales". Important is the "The" - there can only be one "The Princess of Wales" and that is the legal wife of "The Prince of Wales" or his widow, if the next prince is not yet married and is the son of this princess.

Camilla is Charles' legal wife. Charles is "The Prince of Wales". Thus, Camilla is by courtesy "The Princess of Wales" just like Diana was when she was the legal wife of Prince Charles.

The legal wife of the king is the queen - says the law. So when Charles will be king, Camilla as his legal wife will by courtesy be the queen or the queen consort. She is not going to be the queen in her own right, just like she is no princess in her own right.

When "The Prince of Orange" - the heir to the throne of the Netherlands married Ms. Zorreguieta, the queen of the Netherlands created the new "The Princess of Orange" - her courtesy title as the wife of "The Prince of Orange" - into "Princess of the Netherlands" in her own right. If The prince of Orange divorced his wife, Princess Maxima would cease to be "The Princess of Orange" by courtesy, but she would still be "HRH The Princess Maxima of the Netherlands" in her own right. So Maxima's position is much better than that of Diana, who was just by courtesy as wife of a princess called a princess but never was one in her own right. While Maxima now is and will be forever.

As to your question: Prince William's future wife will become "The Princess of Wales" by courtesy the moment her husband wíll become "The Prince of Wales" in his own right. Not a moment before that. As long as Charles lives and is not king, he is the one and only "The Prince of Wales" and his wife is "The Princess of Wales". No matter how she calls herself.

I hope it is clearer now as a concept.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

If in the European country there is only one marriage per person,then how come Prince Charles married two times?A person need to be married in order to be divorced.So Prince Charles is practising polygamy not monogamy.

Charles was not married when he married Camilla. He had been married to Diana but was divorced. Thus, he was no longer married. The situation became an additional touch when Diana dies. Charles became a widower in the eyes of believers in the christian tradition which allows not for divorces. So you may choose what you like: Charles was either a divorcee or a widower, but he was not married when he married Camilla. So Camilla is his one and only legal wife and thus "his princess".

 

[User0501]

Charles was not married when he married Camilla. He had been married to Diana but was divorced. Thus, he was no longer married. The situation became an additional touch when Diana dies. Charles became a widower in the eyes of believers in the christian tradition which allows not for divorces. So you may choose what you like: Charles was either a divorcee or a widower, but he was not married when he married Camilla. So Camilla is his one and only legal wife and thus "his princess".

A divorcee or a widower who marries again is known as practising polygamy. On the other hand,a divorcee or a widower who does not marry again is known as practising monogamy.

 

[MARG]

A divorcee or a widower who marries again is known as practising polygamy. On the other hand,a divorcee or a widower who does not marry again is known as practising monogamy.

A polygamist is one who is married to more than one person at the same time.

 

[Warren]

A divorcee or a widower who marries again is known as practising polygamy. On the other hand,a divorcee or a widower who does not marry again is known as practising monogamy.

Members have explained in detail the intricacies of the "Princess of Wales" title and the simple fact that Prince Charles is legally married to one woman.

There is no point continuing this line of argument which is based on a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'polygamy'.

If there is still doubt, here is the Oxford Dictionary definition: polygamous: having more than one wife or husband at the same time.


Warren
British Forums moderator

 

[selrahc4]

If Prince Charles dies before his mother dies, prince William becomes immediately The Duke of Cornwall and The Duke of Rothesay (in the Scottish peerage)

This is not true.

 

[Elspeth]

If HRH Prince Philip is known as the Duke of Edinburgh and HRH Prince Henrik of Denmark is known as The Prince Consort upon their marriages to Elizabeth II and Margarethe II,then why can't Camilla become HRH The Princess Consort when Prince Charles becomes King Of England?

For the same reason that wives of kings have always been Queens Consort. There's no morganatic marriage in Britian, and a woman takes her husband's rank on marriage.

If Camilla is the Princess of Wales then how come Diana is still known as Diana,Princess of Wales?The royal family only stripped Diana from being called HRH not her title of Princess of Wales.

That's the way titled divorced women are referred to in Britain. If a Duke divorces and remarries, his second wife is "The Duchess of Whatever" and his first wife is known as "Her First Name, Duchess of Whatever." The actual duchess is the second wife.

 

[Elspeth]

This is not true.

Correct. The Duke of Cornwall is the eldest son of the monarch. If Prince Charles predeceases the Queen, Prince William would still be Prince William of Wales, and we wouldn't get a Duke of Cornwall until William was king with a son of his own.

 

[BeatrixFan]

If Camilla is the Princess of Wales then how come Diana is still known as Diana,Princess of Wales?

Diana was A Princess of Wales, Camilla is THE Princess of Wales although I don't see what that has to do with the price of fish.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Correct. The Duke of Cornwall is the eldest son of the monarch. If Prince Charles predeceases the Queen, Prince William would still be Prince William of Wales, and we wouldn't get a Duke of Cornwall until William was king with a son of his own.

Are you sure it's the eldest "son" or is it the "heir apparent" of the monarch?
I realize that the "heir presumptive" could not get the titles but the "heir apparent"?

 

[Warren]

Duke of Cornwall

Are you sure it's the eldest "son" or is it the "heir apparent" of the monarch?
I realize that the "heir presumptive" could not get the titles but the "heir apparent"?

This may help. From the Prince of Wales Website...

The Duchy estate was created in 1337 by Edward III for his son and heir, Prince Edward, and its primary function was to provide him and future Princes of Wales with an income from its assets. A charter rules that each future Duke of Cornwall would be the eldest surviving son of the Monarch and the heir to the throne.

 

[Oppie]

It is defenitly the eldest son that gets the Duke of Cornwall and Earl of Chester(?, it might be Carrick that goes with Cornwall)

Here is info on the titles of the Prince of Wales http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page391.asp

From the link I just posted

The Scottish titles were all vested in the heir to the throne of Scotland by an Act of Scottish Parliament, 1469

In the hypothetical that Prince William lives longer then his father, would he become Duke of Rothesay automatically ?

 

[betina]

I think Camilla should be known only as Princess Consort once Prince Charles accedes to the throne as she is the second wife.Although the late Princess Diana divorced Prince Charles and has passed away as well as behaved badly,she is Prince Charles's first wife and the mother of the future King of United Kingdom,so the title queen should be reserved for Diana only rather than Camilla.Moreover,Camilla was given the title Duchess of Cornwall upon her marriage to Prince Charles last year instead of Princess of Wales as there should only be one Princess of Wales.In addition,the royal family knows that Camilla did not give birth to the heir of the British throne so they decided the title of duchess would do for her rather than a higher title,the princess.Even Camilla has expressed her wish to be known only as the Princess Consort as she is aware of her situation as the second wife of Prince Charles.In royalties,first wives are more important,legal and has more power / value than the second wives.For an example,in the case of HM Sultan Haji Hassanal Bolkiah of Brunei.

Then how about your past queens in england? What about Anne Boleyn. She was indeed queen of England and the mother to the future Elizabeth 1. I think this is silly. People celebrates Diana sometimes if she was a godess but the fact is that the wife of a King has always been titled as queen and so be it.
Start to accept that Charles remaried. A lot of kings have done that and will to in the future.

 

[Elspeth]

Are you sure it's the eldest "son" or is it the "heir apparent" of the monarch?
I realize that the "heir presumptive" could not get the titles but the "heir apparent"?

I know it's different when you have a queen regnant, but for a ruling king I think a grandson is always an heir presumptive because the king could marry a young wife and have another child. I don't know if the grandson of a queen regnant would become heir apparent; it isn't an issue that's ever arisen in the past.

On the Prince of Wales's website it says that the Duke of Cornwall title goes to "the eldest surviving son of the Monarch and the heir to the throne," Which means that if Charles predeceased the Queen, neither Prince William nor Prince Andrew would qualify.

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/duc_index.html

 

[Elspeth]

It is defenitly the eldest son that gets the Duke of Cornwall and Earl of Chester(?, it might be Carrick that goes with Cornwall)

Here is info on the titles of the Prince of Wales http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page391.asp

From the link I just posted

The Scottish titles were all vested in the heir to the throne of Scotland by an Act of Scottish Parliament, 1469

In the hypothetical that Prince William lives longer then his father, would he become Duke of Rothesay automatically ?

If the title is vested in the heir to the throne with no further conditions, I assume he would. I think the Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester titles are the only ones that have to be conferred; the other titles are automatic as long as the person concerned fulfills the requirements.

 

[hayz64]

I think Camilla should be known only as Princess Consort once Prince Charles accedes to the throne as she is the second wife.Although the late Princess Diana divorced Prince Charles and has passed away as well as behaved badly,she is Prince Charles's first wife and the mother of the future King of United Kingdom,so the title queen should be reserved for Diana only rather than Camilla.

I disagree completely with this.Although Camilla has "stated" that she does not want to be known as Queen,the wife of a King is known as the Queen and this should be no exception.I also do not like the way you have brought up Diana,because,as you said she is no longer here and is really nothing to do with the future of our country.This is,unlike Camilla who will indeed will be.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I don't see why over a thousand years of tradition should be changed for one woman.

 

[hayz64]

Exactly.It just really really irritates me when people continue to bring up Diana when we discuss our future monarchy!

 

[Skydragon]

I think Camilla should be known only as Princess Consort once Prince Charles accedes to the throne as she is the second wife.Although the late Princess Diana divorced Prince Charles and has passed away as well as behaved badly,she is Prince Charles's first wife and the mother of the future King of United Kingdom,so the title queen should be reserved for Diana only rather than Camilla.

Perhaps you also believe that all 2nd/3rd/4th etc wives should be called by a different name than is generally used in the UK.

How many wives Charles had or for that matter has, (and I think Charles is now happily married to the woman of his dreams), it will always be his wife at the time that is important.

I agree with Hayz64, The deceased ex wife of Prince Charles has no place in this discussion!

 

[sophie25]

Not being a Royal peer I've often wondererd what Prince Michael of Kent would wear at a Coronation. I suppose it would either be naval uniform along with a male version of the ermine robes worn by the princesses or naval uniform with the blue satin robes of a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order. One never sees anyone in the latter nowadays but they do exist as I saw a picture of Lord Mountbatten in them in the 1940's it's just that unlike some other orders the RVO only has a service every 3 years which is held in St. George's chapel and members only wear their insignia but not their robes which I think is a pity as they looked very impressive in the Mountbatten picture. Any other ideas about what the Prince would wear?

 

[Thomas Parkman]

Dear Members,

This whole discussion has become in my view somewhat ghoulish, for want of a better word. The plain truth is that according to law, tradition etc. the wife of the King of the United Kingdom is the Queen of the United Kingdom. I think this whole Princess Consort business is just plain silly. That somehow Camilla is soiled or second rate goods, which she most certainly is not.

Any other issues are extraneous. I would note that this business of discussing a coronation before his mother, the good woman, has departed this veil of tears for her most justified reward in heaven, (I hope) is really a bit much. If the QM Elizabeth is any example the Queen will easily live another twenty years or more.

My whole quibble with Charles is that monarchy in order to be relevant must be irrelevant, ie it is an atavistic institution which appeals to that non rational aspect of the communal life of a nation. That is why it is so important that tradition and order and way things are done be so scrupulously maintained.

As for our poor Australian friends who think a replublic will be such an improvement-that they will have one of their own to lead the country- I will leave them with their hallucinations or should I say delusions. Having lived in a country that is a so called constitutional democracy and a republic ie, the USA, you will permit me to smile.