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  #981  
Old 01-20-2007, 03:47 PM
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If she abdicates, then yes...she would be HRH The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh again. But, we're talking about the fact The Queen is The Queen and cannot hold another title as The Sovereign!
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  #982  
Old 01-20-2007, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
If she abdicates, then yes...she would be HRH The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh again. But, we're talking about the fact The Queen is The Queen and cannot hold another title as The Sovereign!

So you don't believe what was stated at the monarchy website. I don't know how much clearer it could be. Perhaps the confusion is in the difference between "holding" and "using".
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  #983  
Old 01-20-2007, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
If he confers the rank of Princess of the United Kingdom on her in her own right, with the rider that HRH the Princess Consort has precedence after the King, then she ranks ahead of all the other princesses as both HM the Queen Consort and HRH the Princess Consort.
Which makes no sense. If she's the wife of the King, she is Queen and not a princess of the UK. Does she hold equal rank to the King or doesn't she? A princess with the rank of HRH (not born as such) is the wife of a prince of the UK. She's not Queen.
  #984  
Old 01-20-2007, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selrahc4
So you don't believe what was stated at the monarchy website. I don't know how much clearer it could be. Perhaps the confusion is in the difference between "holding" and "using".
I'm talking about the fact that once you become The Sovereign or Queen Consort, no other rank or title applies. You're HM The Queen and that's it. That's the whole point of the British system of precedence and related honours, titles and ranks. The Crown is fount of honour and source of all enoblement.

If they want to start changing the traditions, precedents and laws, they can do so by changing it. Not by making it up as you go along.

Let's just abolish the whole thing and have a republic instead.
  #985  
Old 01-20-2007, 04:00 PM
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Exactly my sentiment. We need a written constitution that makes it clear what the rules are. You can't change things because of one woman and let's be honest, that's whats being suggested here.
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  #986  
Old 01-20-2007, 04:02 PM
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Thank you Selrah. That is very clear proof.

Branchg, why do you state these things so definitively yet offer no proof for them, even when clear as daylight official evidence is brought forward showing you are mistaken?

What is the basis for your assertion that Queens consort cannot hold other titles when they have done in the past, and have used them?

Princess Elizabeth of York was a born Princess and a married Queen. She still held her title. Eleanor of Acquitaine held and used her title. And the Royal Family (as well as Wikipedia) say that the Queen still holds, still posesses, the title of Duchess of Edinburgh yet does not use it.

All these things contradict you, can you please bring forth some counter-proof other than flat statements that Queens (consort or regnant) cannot hold other titles?

The Queen also holds the title of Duke of Normandy, as another example, in the Channel Islands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Branchg
The Queen is The Queen and cannot hold another title as The Sovereign!
vs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Royal Family's Official Government Website
The Queen still holds the title
  #987  
Old 01-20-2007, 04:11 PM
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The Royal Family's Official Website also states Camilla intends to be known as The Princess Consort when her husband becomes King, which contradicts what members of Parliament and constitutional experts have stated is possible without legislation being passed.

The Queen, as Sovereign, holds many other styles, both historic and, in the case of her peerage, through her marriage. My point is she can only be known as HM The Queen or a similar title as Head of State. Once she became Queen, all other ranks and titles become irrelevant.

So, I rest my case.
  #988  
Old 01-20-2007, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
The Queen, as Sovereign, holds many other styles, both historic and, in the case of her peerage, through her marriage. My point is she can only be known as HM The Queen or a similar title as Head of State. Once she became Queen, all other ranks and titles become irrelevant.

So, I rest my case.
This would be true of any peerage titles held by her in her own right, prior to becoming monarch. It obviously does not apply to a title held as the wife of someone holding a peerage in his own right, evidenced by the statement at the official website.
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  #989  
Old 01-20-2007, 04:29 PM
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Branchg, but that wasn't your point as stated. I originally put it to you that the Queen was also the Duchess of Edinburgh and you corrected me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
No, she is not. All titles and ranks of her birth status and related peerages merged with the Crown.

The only other style The Queen carries is Duke of Lancaster while in the Duchy on official business. And even that is merely a convention of courtesy since she cannot be anything but The Sovereign.

Just one page ago you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
In Elizabeth's case, she is the wife of the The Duke of Edinburgh, but no longer holds the title or style of Duchess of Edinburgh because she is The Sovereign. As fount of honour, she is no longer the wife of a peer, but HM The Queen.
and earlier you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Yes, you are correct Edinburgh did not merge with the Crown. However, it is no longer a style, title or rank held by Elizabeth as she is The Sovereign and cannot be a peer.
You were very explicit - not that she does not use the title, but that she no longer holds it at all. And as Selrah has proved, you are factually wrong on that one. "The Queen still holds the title".

I repeat my request for you to prove or source your assertions that Queens consort also cannot hold and use own-right titles and to address the examples given to you of Queens consort who have in fact used such lesser titles, eg Eleanor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
The Royal Family's Official Website also states Camilla intends to be known as The Princess Consort when her husband becomes King, which contradicts what members of Parliament and constitutional experts have stated is possible without legislation being passed.
Please cite some member of Parliament or some constitutional expert who states that Camilla cannot be Queen and also Princess Consort simultaneously, and why this should trump the two separate statements by the Government repeatedly quoted in this thread that Camilla can be both simultaneously without legislation being passed?

I really do understand that you are absolutely convinced of this! But honestly since what you post contradicts all sorts of official sources, don't you think you need something to back it up....?
  #990  
Old 01-20-2007, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
They are not commoners as they hold and enjoy the rank and title of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK as the daughter and male-line grandson of The Sovereign, which is superior to any rank or titles held through the peerage.
Rank and title do not stop them from being commoners. Only the Sovereign and Peers are not commoners.
  #991  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Which makes no sense. If she's the wife of the King, she is Queen and not a princess of the UK. Does she hold equal rank to the King or doesn't she? A princess with the rank of HRH (not born as such) is the wife of a prince of the UK. She's not Queen.
Calling HRH Princess Louise Lady Louise doesn't make sense. Claiming that Edward VIII lost his HRH on abdication doesn't make sense. We're talking about people who, to coin a phrase from the Bush Administration, can apparently create their own reality if they really want to. And sense isn't necessarily the driving force.
  #992  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:16 PM
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Queen = legal and equal consort to the King

Princess Consort = legal and unequal consort to the King


So she's going to be equal to him and unequal to him at the same time? Because that's basically what she'd be doing if for some reason everyone decided to go along with this charade.

If you give her the title Princess Consort while she's still legally Queen, you are saying that she is both unworthy and worthy of using the title Queen. That statement makes no sense whatsoever. Either she's the Queen or she's not. Either you're saying she can lawfully share in and use her husband's titles or you're saying she can't. How can she use two terms at the same time that are basically contradictory to one another in meaning?
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  #993  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:32 PM
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I'd agree with every word of that if you changed "cannot" to "should not". Right now the Dept of Constitutional Affairs says she can.

I completely agree it's all an utter dog's breakfast.

However, it has been announced and still not refuted. The longer it drags on, the harder it will be to change it. Hopefully Clarence House will act soon.
  #994  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:37 PM
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How can she be equal to him and unequal to him at the same time? That's a matter of "cannot" not "should not".
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  #995  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:38 PM
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And surely all this goes against the equality the Government are so keen to achieve in British society? Gay couples can marry and be considered equal after marriage but Charles and Camilla apparantly can't.
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  #996  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:44 PM
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Not really Sister M as the Dept of Constitutional Affairs, who clearly are the authority, say "can".

She is equal to him as Queen Consort but the Princess Consort title would be an own-right title, inferior, but she'd use that one. Prince Albert although styled as "Consort" held that title in his own right also. Princess Maxima of the Netherlands was made a Princess of the Netherlands in her own right before she got married. So there's no inequality if the PC title is own-right. There's only inequality if she is not Queen and all agree she will be Queen.
  #997  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson
Rank and title do not stop them from being commoners. Only the Sovereign and Peers are not commoners.
So HRH The Duchess of Cornwall should curtsy to HG The Duchess of Grafton? Give me a break!
  #998  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Not really Sister M as the Dept of Constitutional Affairs, who clearly are the authority, say "can".

She is equal to him as Queen Consort but the Princess Consort title would be an own-right title, inferior, but she'd use that one. Prince Albert although styled as "Consort" held that title in his own right also. Princess Maxima of the Netherlands was made a Princess of the Netherlands in her own right before she got married. So there's no inequality if the PC title is own-right. There's only inequality if she is not Queen and all agree she will be Queen.

I just don't buy it.
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  #999  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:49 PM
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So is she Her Majesty The Queen or Her Royal Highness The Princess Consort? Is she Princess Consort of Canada too? Does she sit on a throne with an Imperial Crown on her head or a tiara? What is she?
  #1000  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Not really Sister M as the Dept of Constitutional Affairs, who clearly are the authority, say "can".
They are not the authority. They are a cabinet-level department that reports to Parliament. And Parliament has the right to alter the style, title and precedent of the succession, not The Prime Minister or The King.

It's hard when laws get in the way, but that's what constitutional monarchy is all about. You can't just make it up.
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