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  #921  
Old 01-20-2007, 05:50 AM
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I think they took the Princess Consort from the Prince Consort title that some husbands of Queen Regnants have.

Its possible, there are some suggestions that Maxima will not be Queen of the Netherlands but will not be Queen when Willem-Alexander ascends the throne but will have some sort of lower consort title.

It may be another sign of scaling down the monarchy which I think is rather a shame.
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  #922  
Old 01-20-2007, 06:00 AM
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I completely agree. Whilst I admire and respect Prince Charles, I think what he has done here in the matter of Camilla's titles is a disaster for the monarchy and therefore the country.

Once you mess with it, wholesale destruction will take place.
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  #923  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:02 AM
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Frothy.......Why do I keep saying that? Well.....according to the article I read and posted portions of here, Parliament would need to strip Camilla of the Queen title before she can use whatever other title Charles feels like giving her. That's where I got it from. Unless of course the people quoted in the article were absolute liars.

Quote:
Camilla Parker Bowles will become Queen unless Parliament legislates to strip her of the right to the title, it was confirmed yesterday. The admission by the Department for Constitutional Affairs contradicts repeated assertions by Clarence House that she will be known only as Princess Consort on her husband’s succession, and not Queen.
Further on in the article it states:

Quote:
A spokeswoman for the Department for Constitutional Affairs, headed by Lord Falconer of Thoroton, the Lord Chancellor, said that an Act of Parliament would be required.
And again:

Quote:
Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: “I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen.
So you have evidence saying one thing, I have evidence saying the opposite. It doesn't make you right and me wrong or me right and you wrong. What it makes is a huge mess that they are to blame for because they should have been a lot clearer about this. Either that or they should have done some research before opening their mouths.
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  #924  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:21 AM
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I can't remember who brought up Prince Albert and the Prince Consort title, but that doesn't apply here. Kings outrank Queens. That's how it works. So Queen Victoria's husband couldn't have a title that outranked her, even if she's the sovereign by birthright and would be outranked in theory, by no one.

No one outranks the King, so it makes zero sense to give his consort a feminized form of a title given to a man married to a Queen regnant.
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  #925  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:27 AM
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I suspect that in about three or four years time they will quietly remove that section from the website if they feel that people are accepting Camilla more.

If there is an outcry they will say that they are simply updating the website and that it will reappear but if there isn't a big to do then it will stay that way.

At the latest that will happen, I believe, will be during 2012, during the Queen's 60th Jubilee, assuming that she makes it that far.
  #926  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:29 AM
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I think we are arguing over something on which we all agree. The quotes above all refer to stripping Camilla of the title and position of Queen. Obviously that can only happen by Act of Parliament, and we accept that no Government would introduce such legislation.

The crux of the matter is whether, while retaining her formal and automatic position as Queen Consort, Camilla can be given the additional title (or form of address) of Princess Consort by which she may choose to be known.

Part of the problem with the debate in this thread is that quoted sources are being used to argue against misinterpreted statements.
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  #927  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:29 AM
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King Charles and Queen Camilla

Hi,
I've been lurking here for quite a while now and really enjoying this ... and similiar .... threads. I don't profess to be knowledgeable by any means on Constitutional or RF matters, but one thing keeps niggling in my brain while reading through this thread.

Could it be that this "Princess Consort" title is in fact a signal of things to come in the future? After all, Charles seems to be the sort of man who wants to change the monarchy, so perhaps all consorts in the future will now be known by either Princess or Prince Consort. Perhaps the RF also intend for William's wife to be known as Princess Consort when her turn comes and Camilla is merely the frontrunner for many generations to be known as such?

In one way Prince Philip could be seen as the first of many in this role. I'm assuming that he is currently known as the Prince Consort? Not sure about this though.

Just my humble thoughts. Great site BTW .... I'm really enjoying it

Joan
  #928  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan
Hi,
I've been lurking here for quite a while now and really enjoying this ... and similiar .... threads. I don't profess to be knowledgeable by any means on Constitutional or RF matters, but one thing keeps niggling in my brain while reading through this thread.

Could it be that this "Princess Consort" title is in fact a signal of things to come in the future? After all, Charles seems to be the sort of man who wants to change the monarchy, so perhaps all consorts in the future will now be known by either Princess or Prince Consort. Perhaps the RF also intend for William's wife to be known as Princess Consort when her turn comes and Camilla is merely the frontrunner for many generations to be known as such?

In one way Prince Philip could be seen as the first of many in this role. I'm assuming that he is currently known as the Prince Consort? Not sure about this though.

Just my humble thoughts. Great site BTW .... I'm really enjoying it

Joan

Welcome Joan! Prince Philip is not known as the Prince Consort. Winston Churchill suggested that the Queen give him that title, but she did not. She wanted his title elevated but didn't want Prince Consort or "Prince Royal". Instead, she gave him the title The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. The "The" is usually only reserved for children of the sovereign.


As for thinning out the monarchy, giving Camilla the title "Princess Consort" isn't necessarily the indicator of that. If they really wanted to thin down the monarchy, they'd do what Norway does and only give the title HRH to the children of the monarch, the eldest child's spouse and that couple's first child. The second child of Haakon and Mette-Marit is only known as Prince Sverre Magnus, where as his older sister is HRH Princess Ingrid Alexandra.

This whole "Princess Consort" business is [what seems to me] a ploy to soothe ruffled feathers of the people who don't think Charles's mistress should be Queen.
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  #929  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:38 AM
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Hi fellow Sydney-sider Joan, and welcome to the posting-side of the Forums.

Prince Philip is not 'Prince Consort", the most recent was Prince Albert, the husband of Queen Victoria.

The convention is that the wife of a British King is automatically Queen from the moment the King succeeds to the Throne. The current debate concerns not only the appropriateness of a downgrading to 'Princess Consort', but the mechanism as to how such a title or form of address may be achieved.
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  #930  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:43 AM
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King Charles and Queen Camilla

Hi and thanks for the welcomes. Yes, I realise that the current ... and traditional .... title is for the female consort of the King is Queen, but what I'm suggesting is that perhaps Charles is intending for this tradition to change and that all female consorts in the future shall no longer be known as Queen? Perhaps Camilla is to be the first of these? People will say that 1000 years of tradition will say otherwise of course, but Charles strikes me as a man who wants change. Perhaps this is one of them? Just a thought
Joan
  #931  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan
Hi and thanks for the welcomes. Yes, I realise that the current ... and traditional .... title is for the female consort of the King is Queen, but what I'm suggesting is that perhaps Charles is intending for this tradition to change and that all female consorts in the future shall no longer be known as Queen? Perhaps Camilla is to be the first of these? People will say that 1000 years of tradition will say otherwise of course, but Charles strikes me as a man who wants change. Perhaps this is one of them? Just a thought
Joan
I cannot see Charles throwing 1,000 years of tradition out the privy window because of Camilla. That is just way too radical and frankly, bizarre. They want to call Camilla "Princess Consort" because of the way they came be married and the fact they fooled around while married. If that's the reason why they want to do it, why would they thrust that reason on the next possible Queen Consort and punish her because of something someone else did?


Let's say William marries Kate. Provided they don't split, she'd be the next Queen. Why should she be called Princess Consort because her father-in-law and his second wife fooled around together while they were married to different people?
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  #932  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:55 AM
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King Charles and Queen Camilla

But that's exactly my point .... it has nothing to do with Camilla, simply the fact that Charles intends to change the whole "title thing" with future consorts .... Camilla just happens to be the first
Joan
  #933  
Old 01-20-2007, 07:59 AM
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King Charles and Queen Camilla

Why would you assume that Camilla will be known as Princess Consort because of her history with the whole Diana / Charles situation? Has anyone said that's why she wants to be known by that title? Maybe it's got nothing to do with it. I have a feeling that Charles will thrown a lot of traditions out of the "privy window" when his time comes to be king ... or at least begin debates to start the ball rolling on them. The Salic Law for one
Joan
  #934  
Old 01-20-2007, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan
But that's exactly my point .... it has nothing to do with Camilla, simply the fact that Charles intends to change the whole "title thing" with future consorts .... Camilla just happens to be the first
Joan

There has been no indication that this supposed to be a permanent thing. There has been indication though, that this is supposed to be a personal thing. I can pretty much bet you that William's wife will NOT be known as anything other than Queen Consort when her time comes.


They aren't thinking of giving Camilla another title because Charles wants to be different and throw all the toys in the air and let them land in new places. They are doing this because of their prior relationship and because they don't think she's "worthy" enough to be Queen. By changing it permanently, you are saying that NO ONE is worthy to be Queen and that just makes no sense to me at all.
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  #935  
Old 01-20-2007, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan
Why would you assume that Camilla will be known as Princess Consort because of her history with the whole Diana / Charles situation? Has anyone said that's why she wants to be known by that title?

Quote:
In Western monarchies the title is not common, but it has been announced that the title will be given to Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, as an alternative to "queen consort" if and when Charles, Prince of Wales becomes King of the United Kingdom and the 15 other Commonwealth Realms. This is due to the somewhat controversial nature of the Prince's relationship with her, as both have previously been married and divorced, and they have been partners for many years

There is no other reasoning for why they would do this, other than the reason listed above. Charles does not strike me as the type to fly in the face of tradition like this just because he's feeling cheeky.

Frankly, to give her a title other than Queen is insulting.
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  #936  
Old 01-20-2007, 08:08 AM
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King Charles and Queen Camilla

You don't know that for sure though, do you? I don't think that anyone has said that's why Camilla doesn't want to be known as Queen. My personal feeling is that Queen Elizabeth (the late Queen Mother) might be the last Queen with the title not actually born to the role
Joan
  #937  
Old 01-20-2007, 08:11 AM
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King Charles and Queen Camilla

In Western monarchies the title is not common, but it has been announced that the title will be given to Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, as an alternative to "queen consort" if and when Charles, Prince of Wales becomes King of the United Kingdom and the 15 other Commonwealth Realms. This is due to the somewhat controversial nature of the Prince's relationship with her, as both have previously been married and divorced, and they have been partners for many years

Sorry .... missed this in your post. apparently it has been said .... can you tell me who this quote is from please? I still think it might be a sign for the future however.
Joan
  #938  
Old 01-20-2007, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan
You don't know that for sure though, do you? I don't think that anyone has said that's why Camilla doesn't want to be known as Queen.
For cryin' out loud, why ELSE would they do this, if not for he and Camilla's prior relationship? That reason alone makes no sense, but to do it for no reason at all makes even less! Just about every piece of information you can read about this whole debacle all but spells out that the reason they are thinking of doing this is because of their past relationship, the fact they are both divorced, etc,.


As long as there are Kings of England, there will be Queens Consort. If you don't allow the lawful wife of the King to be Queen, throw the monarchy in the scrap heap and become a republic.
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  #939  
Old 01-20-2007, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan
Quote:
In Western monarchies the title is not common, but it has been announced that the title will be given to Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, as an alternative to "queen consort" if and when Charles, Prince of Wales becomes King of the United Kingdom and the 15 other Commonwealth Realms. This is due to the somewhat controversial nature of the Prince's relationship with her, as both have previously been married and divorced, and they have been partners for many years
Sorry .... missed this in your post. apparently it has been said .... can you tell me who this quote is from please? I still think it might be a sign for the future however.
Joan

That was from the Wikipedia article on the title "Princess Consort". No source is given, but if you Google "Camilla+Princess Consort", you'll find a bevy more information just like that. No source in that article doesn't mean it's made-up or bunkum, either.

And it's not a sign of the future, it's a sign of madness.
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  #940  
Old 01-20-2007, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joan
I have a feeling that Charles will thrown a lot of traditions out of the "privy window" when his time comes to be king ... or at least begin debates to start the ball rolling on them. The Salic Law for one
Joan, Britain doesn't have Salic Law, it has male primogeniture. The rules governing Succesion to the Crown are the province of the Parliament.
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