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  #841  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
Parliament would have to strip Camilla of her rightful title of Queen before the new King can give her ANY title; Princess Consort, Bozo The Clown, Queen of the Ooompa-Loompa People....whatever. Before any of that can happen, Parliament MUST strip her of her title.
Any person who is a subject of the monarch can be granted a style or title, whether or not it takes precedence over styles and titles already held. Whether it is used or not is irrelevant. As Camilla would be a subject of her husband, it would be completely legal for her to receive a grant of a style or title. However, as you say, the only body that can strip her of the style "Her Majesty" and the title "The Queen" is the Parliament of the United Kingdom, working in unison with the Parliaments and governments of the other Commonwealth Realms, which will not in any liklihood happen.
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  #842  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth
The question is whether, and how, the HRH Princess Consort handle might be given to her in addition to the HM the Queen handle, so she can be known by the former style while also holding the latter.

However, as I asked earlier in the thread, would that mean she wouldn't take part in the coronation ceremony - she'd still be Queen even if she wasn't referred to as such, and this isn't a morganatic marriage (or so we're being assured). What would it mean in practical terms for what she does after Charles becomes king?


From what I understand through reading these last 10 pages or so, the Queen can't hold more than one title. So she's either the Queen or she's not. So they can't give her another title, without taking the one she would have away from her first. It's not like the situation currently, where she has more than one title to choose from that she'll be referred to.

So I don't see how she can LEGALLY be the Queen and LEGALLY be a morgantic princess at the same time. There is no precedence for that.


As for the coronation ceremony, if she's not being crowned Queen Consort, what would she be doing there? If they've got her styled as the morgantic wife of the King, I can't see her being able to do much.
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  #843  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:52 PM
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I think Frothy's point is that while the sovereign can't be a peer as well as the sovereign, the consort isn't the same as the sovereign. So it should be possible in theory for the sovereign to create his consort Princess of the United Kingdom in her own right. I assume that means that in the event they divorce she'd keep the title, which might be one reason for not granting it in the first place.
  #844  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:59 PM
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OK, this may be too pedantic but here goes...

In 1485 Henry, Duke of Lancaster, married Anne of York, born a Princess of England and after the Battle of Bosworth was granted the crown and title of King of England.

The question I have, was Anne of York still a Princess of England after she married Henry VII or did the fact that she married a reigning monarch forfeit her title as princess.

Back in the days when Kings married Royal Princesses, the ladies kept their royal princess title from the land of their birth when they married a sovereign. So Anne of Denmark (consort of James I) would technically be Princess of Denmark, Queen Consort of England and Scotland.

But what of Royal Princesses of England who married Kings of England (due to two factions of a family joining together or something similar?)
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  #845  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I think Frothy's point is that while the sovereign can't be a peer as well as the sovereign, the consort isn't the same as the sovereign. So it should be possible in theory for the sovereign to create his consort Princess of the United Kingdom in her own right. I assume that means that in the event they divorce she'd keep the title, which might be one reason for not granting it in the first place.
Again, the 1936 precedents make it clear this is impossible. The wife of The King holds the rights, title, rank and privileges of Queen Consort and nothing else. Even worse, Camilla is already married to the future king, unlike the situation Edward was facing, and shares equal rank.
  #846  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
From what I understand through reading these last 10 pages or so, the Queen can't hold more than one title. So she's either the Queen or she's not. So they can't give her another title, without taking the one she would have away from her first. It's not like the situation currently, where she has more than one title to choose from that she'll be referred to.

So I don't see how she can LEGALLY be the Queen and LEGALLY be a morgantic princess at the same time. There is no precedence for that.


As for the coronation ceremony, if she's not being crowned Queen Consort, what would she be doing there? If they've got her styled as the morgantic wife of the King, I can't see her being able to do much.
That's the point some people keep missing. She's married, holds equal rank and becomes Queen in due course. If she is HRH The Princess Consort, she is not Queen or HM. So, she's a morganatic wife, which Parliament will not accept, anymore than they did in 1936.
  #847  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
OK, this may be too pedantic but here goes...

In 1485 Henry, Duke of Lancaster, married Anne of York, born a Princess of England and after the Battle of Bosworth was granted the crown and title of King of England.

The question I have, was Anne of York still a Princess of England after she married Henry VII or did the fact that she married a reigning monarch forfeit her title as princess.

Back in the days when Kings married Royal Princesses, the ladies kept their royal princess title from the land of their birth when they married a sovereign. So Anne of Denmark (consort of James I) would technically be Princess of Denmark, Queen Consort of England and Scotland.

But what of Royal Princesses of England who married Kings of England (due to two factions of a family joining together or something similar?)

It was Elizabeth of York, not Anne of York that Henry VII married. They weren't even married until after he was crowned, and she wasn't crowned herself until after their first child was born. Until she was crowned Queen, she was the Queen but not known as such. I believe she was still known as Elizabeth of York. As the daughter of a King, she was already a Princess of the blood royal.

Anne of Denmark became Queen Anne of England and Scotland when James I became King. I don't think you can keep your title and the title you assumed upon marriage at the same time.


Let's take a hypothetical situation: Princess Madeleine of Sweden marries Prince William. She wouldn't be known as HRH Princess Madeleine of Sweden, Princess of Wales or however you'd write that out. She'd be HRH Princess Madeleine of Wales. The woman takes her rank from her husband, even if she's a royal princess herself. She is losing her title to gain another one. HSH Princess May of Teck was not HRH Princess May of Teck and York when she married George V; she was HRH The Duchess of York.
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  #848  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
It was Elizabeth of York, not Anne of York that Henry VII married. They weren't even married until after he was crowned, and she wasn't crowned herself until after their first child was born. Until she was crowned Queen, she was the Queen but not known as such. I believe she was still known as Elizabeth of York. As the daughter of a King, she was already a Princess of the blood royal.

Anne of Denmark became Queen Anne of England and Scotland when James I became King. I don't think you can keep your title and the title you assumed upon marriage at the same time.


Let's take a hypothetical situation: Princess Madeleine of Sweden marries Prince William. She wouldn't be known as HRH Princess Madeleine of Sweden, Princess of Wales or however you'd write that out. She'd be HRH Princess Madeleine of Wales. The woman takes her rank from her husband, even if she's a royal princess herself. She is losing her title to gain another one. HSH Princess May of Teck was not HRH Princess May of Teck and York when she married George V; she was HRH The Duchess of York.
Sister Morphine, thanks for the name correction but I'm not quite sure these royal-born princesses lose their royal-born titles. In fact the British custom states that only ladies that are princess-born can have Princess affixed before their names when they marry into the BRF. That title comes from birth and is retained through marriage into the BRF.
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  #849  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:48 PM
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I think Princess Marina continued to be referred to as Princess Marina when she became Duchess of Kent. Not sure if that was official or just the way the press and the public referred to her, though.
  #850  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:52 PM
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Queen Alexandra was born a princess of Denmark. When she married the future Edward VII, she lost her title Princess of Denmark to become a Princess of England. In fact, she became the Princess of Wales.

The woman takes her rank from her husband. If you're already a Princess, you would lose your style (of Sweden, of Denmark, of wherever) and take your husbands (of Wales, of York, of wherever). If you are not a Princess, you are either created one, like the Dutch with with Crown Princess Maxima [she is a Princess of the Netherlands in her own right] or you are not created one [a la Camilla]. If you are not created one, your title would be HRH Princess *insert guy's name here* of XYZ.
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  #851  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
Queen Alexandra was born a princess of Denmark. When she married the future Edward VII, she lost her title Princess of Denmark to become a Princess of England. In fact, she became the Princess of Wales.

The woman takes her rank from her husband. If you're already a Princess, you would lose your style (of Sweden, of Denmark, of wherever) and take your husbands (of Wales, of York, of wherever). If you are not a Princess, you are either created one, like the Danes with with Crown Princess Mary [she is a Princess of Denmark in her own right] or you are not created one [a la Camilla]. If you are not created one, your title would be HRH Princess *insert guy's name here* of XYZ.
No I agree that a princess takes the style of her husband but I don't think she loses the style she was born with. Perhaps we need a branchg to answer this. I don't know honestly which is why I asked the question but I have seen royal born princesses referred to as Princess of __________, Queen of ___________
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  #852  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg
Again, the 1936 precedents make it clear this is impossible. The wife of The King holds the rights, title, rank and privileges of Queen Consort and nothing else. Even worse, Camilla is already married to the future king, unlike the situation Edward was facing, and shares equal rank.
The 1936 precedents are something of a special case. That was an actual morganatic marriage of an ex-king who was told a few months earlier that morganatic marriage would be impossible. Let's face it - the whole point of that sorry exercise was to deny Wallis an HRH by any means necessary. I mean, this whole excuse that by abdicting Edward somehow divested himself of his HRH is just so much nonsense. We're not in the same position today. I don't know if this Princess Consort stuff was because one of the Queen's advisers thought the public would turn against both Charles and Camilla in a big way if it was announced that she'd be Queen when he became King or if it was because Camilla didn't want to be Queen or what. But we're stuck with a situation now where things aren't as easy as they thought they were, once it was confirmed that the wife of the King is Queen legally and not just by convention. There's no way (I assume, anyway) that legislation will be introduced to strip her of the HM. The only question is whether an HRH can be given to her in her own right to go along with the HM. And, honestly, if they can pull legal rabbits out of hats with what they did to Edward and Wallis, I assume they can pull legal ferrets out of trousers and figure some way to do it if they really want to.
  #853  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
No I agree that a princess takes the style of her husband but I don't think she loses the style she was born with.

Any reading I've ever done, and I might not have been reading it correctly, tells me that you would lose the style you're born with when you marry. You will always be a Princess of Wherever, however you would not be styled as such. Alexandra was still a Princess of Denmark by nature of being daughter to the King, but that's just a circumstance of her birth. When she married the Prince of Wales, she became Alexandra, The Princess of Wales. There was no "and of Denmark" affixed to the end of that.


The only way I can see a princess keeping the style she was born with and the style she married into, is if the two places were joined somehow, like when Norway had a union with Sweden. A princess of Sweden who married a prince of Norway would a Princess of Sweden and Norway.
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  #854  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
No I agree that a princess takes the style of her husband but I don't think she loses the style she was born with. Perhaps we need a branchg to answer this. I don't know honestly which is why I asked the question but I have seen royal born princesses referred to as Princess of __________, Queen of ___________
Well, they never lose their birthright status as a Princess, but of course, they do not keep any foreign titles or precedence upon marriage into the British royal family. They take their husband's titles and styles like anyone else ("HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent").
  #855  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg
Well, they never lose their birthright status as a Princess, but of course, they do not keep any foreign titles or precedence upon marriage into the British royal family. They take their husband's titles and styles like anyone else ("HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent").
Ah, so they keep the Princess part but they lose the 'of Greece' part.

Thanks branchg.
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  #856  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:04 AM
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No offense, but isn't that what I said as well?
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  #857  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:05 AM
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Ah, so they keep the Princess part but they lose the 'of Greece' part.

What if the Princess ascends to the throne as Queen Consort, would they ever be referred to their born Princess title in addition to their Queen title or would they drop it for the Queen Consort title?

Thanks branchg.
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  #858  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
What if the Princess ascends to the throne as Queen Consort, would they ever be referred to their born Princess title in addition to their Queen title or would they drop it for the Queen Consort title?


I believe they would drop it for the Queen Consort title.
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  #859  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth
The 1936 precedents are something of a special case. That was an actual morganatic marriage of an ex-king who was told a few months earlier that morganatic marriage would be impossible. Let's face it - the whole point of that sorry exercise was to deny Wallis an HRH by any means necessary. I mean, this whole excuse that by abdicting Edward somehow divested himself of his HRH is just so much nonsense.
The precedents I refer to are the questions raised during the debate prior to Edward's abdication. It was made clear the wife of the King is Queen Consort and nothing else. If Edward were to marry Wallis morganatically, approval from Parliament and the Dominions to introduce legislation granting her a lesser rank and title were required.

The 1937 Letters Patent were entirely within the will of The Sovereign as fount of honour. The King could, and did, deny The Duke's wife and children the right to share his rank of HRH since his descendants' statutory rights to the succession were removed in the Act of Abdication.
  #860  
Old 01-18-2007, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
What if the Princess ascends to the throne as Queen Consort, would they ever be referred to their born Princess title in addition to their Queen title or would they drop it for the Queen Consort title?
No, because they are now Queen of the United Kingdom and their birthright styles and titles are inferior to being Her Majesty The Queen. Look at HSH Princess May of Teck becoming HM Queen Mary. Now all her German relatives and relations who looked down on her morganatic status had to curtsy!
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