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  #701  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:59 PM
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Exactly. Until you give us the name of your source, a statement from her in her role as a spokesperson for the Department of Constitutional Affairs then I'll stick with the evidence I've got from that department and from the Lord Chancellor that tells me otherwise and I'm sorry if that upsets you.
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  #702  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:09 PM
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BeatrixFan, that quote came from a Times story, I linked to it many moons ago in this thread. I am staying up to watch your Panorama programme through to see if there's anything in it to match your earlier post today. So far, they discussed the Princess Consort title and at no point - none whatsoever - did they say legislation would be needed to create this title. Is there a second discussion of the matter later in the show? I am at the Pope's funeral bit.
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  #703  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:20 PM
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Blimey, BeatrixFan, I do think that's a bit bad of you. I took you at your word that this Panorama programme contained statements from the Lord Chancellor, or from Government, that legislation would be needed to create the title "Princess Consort" and for Camilla to use it.

It says no such thing at any point whatsoever.

On the contrary and as I have repeatedly posted, legislation will be needed to deny her her role as Queen. We all knew that already. It says nothing anywhere that legislation is needed to make the PC title or to call her that. In fact their commentator Jonathan Dimbleby says exactlywhat I have been saying all along - legally Queen but using the PC title.

It is a - well, I don't know what TRF rules are so I want to be careful - a total inaccuracy to say that this show states legislation is needed to create her Princess Consort! How could you come on here and say that it does!

Posters wishing to check this for themselves can watch the show - the Princess Consort bit starts at around twenty minutes in and it is clear to see this assertion is utterly false.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/u...toryid=4303296

Starts at 19:15 or so.
  #704  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:29 PM
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Right. I'm a liar. Burn me at the stake and spit on my perfectly formed face. I didn't remember a programme word for word that was broadcast 2 years ago. Well what sort of a person am I? It's a wonder I haven't been shot by now you know. I was sure the Panorama programme said that - I'll have to watch it again for myself. Anyway dear, now that you've proved me wrong, give me the chance to prove you wrong and give us your "sources".
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  #705  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:30 PM
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How can you use a title that doesn't exist? The Duchess of Cornwall exists.....it's one of the titles she received when marrying Charles. However, the wife of a King has but one title. So, if she's to use another one.....where will she get it from? A magic hat? A flying unicorn with a bag of titles?


I'm reading an article from the London Times dated March 22, 2005 as I type, and it says the following:

Quote:
CAMILLA Parker Bowles will become Queen unless Parliament legislates to strip her of the right to the title, it was confirmed yesterday. The admission by the Department for Constitutional Affairs contradicts repeated assertions by Clarence House that she will be known only as Princess Consort on her husband’s succession, and not Queen.

NI_MPU('middle');
Any change to her status may also have to be approved by the 17 parliaments in countries where the new King will be head of state.

I also see this:


Quote:
A spokeswoman for the Department for Constitutional Affairs, headed by Lord Falconer of Thoroton, the Lord Chancellor, said that an Act of Parliament would be required.

And this:


Quote:
Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: “I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen.”
Another official at the department said: “There definitely has to be legislation because it is changing the role of the wife of the monarch. That has to be approved by Parliament.”


So are all these people liars?
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  #706  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:32 PM
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Ok, I was wrong on the Panorama front although I could have sworn I saw Lord Falconer on there telling us what Sister Morphine has managed to post here;

A spokeswoman for the Department for Constitutional Affairs, headed by Lord Falconer of Thoroton, the Lord Chancellor, said that an Act of Parliament would be required.
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  #707  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:38 PM
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More from that same article:


Quote:
The Thurrock MP asked whether the proposed marriage of HRH the Prince of Wales to Camilla Parker Bowles was “morganatic”, by which Mrs Parker Bowles would not inherit on the Prince’s death.
Mr Leslie replied: “No.”


Patrick Cracroft-Brennan, the editor of Cracroft’s Peerage, said: “It has been a tradition for more than 1,000 years that the wife of the King automatically becomes Queen. They will have to legislate. If they don’t they are tampering with centuries of English tradition and history.”

So, if the marriage is not morgantic....the title Princess Consort would suggest that it was. Why would she get a title that goes against the kind of marriage she entered into? This isn't like the Princess de Rethy over in Belgium.
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  #708  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:39 PM
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As Queen Mary said when it was suggested that Wallis and Edward have a morganatic marriage; "This isn't Belgium you know!".
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  #709  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
How can you use a title that doesn't exist?
Well, quite simply one is created.lol.
  #710  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:45 PM
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Created by an act of parliament.
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  #711  
Old 01-16-2007, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
BeatrixFan,

Let us be absolutely clear. An act of Parliament is NOT needed to create her Princess Consort whatsoever, and I have offered you proof of that from a government department spokeswoman who is concerned with just this matter. You're wrong, the Government says you're wrong, and the Royal Family also say you are wrong. End of.
You haven't offered proof. You've quoted from a spokeswoman who says she can be called Princess Consort without legislation, and you're accepting what the royal family website says about her future title. The point at issue here is that branchg and Beatrixfan (and, it seems, other posters) are saying that the royal family website is incorrect because she won't actually BE Princess Consort without legislation, so she'd have to be calling herself by a title she doesn't actually possess. It would have no legal standing, and she would still have to sign any legal documents with her HM title, not some HRH title that's basically some sort of fiction. I'm sure she could call herself Princess Consort (or Bozo the Clown), but without legislation, it's just a title attached to nothing.

While I suppose it's possible that this scenario could happen, it seems more Gilbertian than real.
  #712  
Old 01-16-2007, 08:52 PM
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Couldn't the title "Princess Consort" just be created by a Royal Warrant, as the title of "Princess Royal" is? No other title needs an act of Parliament to be created, so I don't see why Princess Consort should. Of course, that doesn't mean she wouldn't be the Queen, which she most definitely will be when Charles accedes.
  #713  
Old 01-16-2007, 08:55 PM
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If a Dukedom is created, you're giving someone a new title which they can use as they wish. However, if you create a Dukedom and say that a King must now be known as a Duke, then that needs an Act of Parliament as you're replacing one office with a new one.
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  #714  
Old 01-16-2007, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
I agree that that Camilla will de jure be Queen, as the rightful wedded spouse of The King. Like now, she is de jure Princess of Wales, being the rightful wedded spouse of The Prince of Wales.

But de facto, she is only always and everywhere, officially and unofficially, 'known as' The Duchess of Cornwall. The fact that both on the official site of the monarchy as on the site of The Prince of Wales, still can be read: "It is intended that The Duchess of Cornwall will use the title HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne."

Yes, 'intended', but still it are no murmurings during an interview, it is written black on white on official websites and outspoken in official statements. That makes me doubt about the future de facto situation.

This makes me think about the Netherlands, where the intention is that the spouse of the Sovereign will officially be styled HRH The Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, no matter the gender of the spouse. Will Charles, who wants to adapt monarchy to the Third Millennium, streamline the styles too, in an attempt to make it more in line with today's egalitarian views?

Such a step would however set a precedent for the wife of William and his successors...
It is not the same thing. By virtue of her marriage to Charles, she is HRH The Princess Charles, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, etc. She holds the rights and precedence of her position as the wife of the heir to the throne and uses the style of HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, rather than her senior one as Princess of Wales. It does not change her precedence in the UK.

By virtue of her husband's ascension to the throne, she automatically becomes HM Queen Camilla. There is no other title or style for the wife of the King at this time. Because the Consort is styled by parliamentary precedent, any deviation requires approval from Parliament, particularly since holding a lesser rank (which Princess Consort is) implies a morganatic marriage where none exists.
  #715  
Old 01-16-2007, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson
Couldn't the title "Princess Consort" just be created by a Royal Warrant, as the title of "Princess Royal" is? No other title needs an act of Parliament to be created, so I don't see why Princess Consort should. Of course, that doesn't mean she wouldn't be the Queen, which she most definitely will be when Charles accedes.
No, because the title is being created for a Queen Consort who holds superior rank and precedence as the wife of the King. The rank, title and style of "HRH Princess of the UK" is governed by the 1917 Letters Patent of George V and does not apply to a Queen.

There has to be legislation from Parliament to remove her rank and title as HM The Queen, which then frees The King to make her a princess of the UK with precedence after His Majesty.
  #716  
Old 01-16-2007, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
So, if the marriage is not morgantic....the title Princess Consort would suggest that it was. Why would she get a title that goes against the kind of marriage she entered into? This isn't like the Princess de Rethy over in Belgium.
That's the real problem here. Camilla and Charles have an equal marriage where she shares all of his titles, styles and rank. So, how do you suddenly "downgrade" her rank and title as Queen once Charles is The Sovereign?

It just doesn't add up and Clarence House knows it. They tried to slip it in and say, "oh, don't worry....she won't be Queen, she'll be Princess Consort instead" when there is no constitutional basis for making that statement.

Unless Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth agree to alter the title and style of the succession, it's not going to happen.
  #717  
Old 01-16-2007, 10:09 PM
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Why didnt she just use the Princess of Wales title and have done with it? Its caused so many problems. She should have gone with the Princess of Wales title and they should have been honest and said, yes, she will be Queen. It would save so much hassle.
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  #718  
Old 01-16-2007, 10:16 PM
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quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Why didnt she just use the Princess of Wales title and have done with it? Its caused so many problems. She should have gone with the Princess of Wales title and they should have been honest and said, yes, she will be Queen. It would save so much hassle.
Because Camilla and Clarence House knew that the Princess of Wales title is too much associated with Diana.
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  #719  
Old 01-16-2007, 11:06 PM
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That's going to be a major problem for William's future bride when Charles becomes King.
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  #720  
Old 01-16-2007, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
No, because the title is being created for a Queen Consort who holds superior rank and precedence as the wife of the King. The rank, title and style of "HRH Princess of the UK" is governed by the 1917 Letters Patent of George V and does not apply to a Queen.

There has to be legislation from Parliament to remove her rank and title as HM The Queen, which then frees The King to make her a princess of the UK with precedence after His Majesty.
On the not being a Princess part, the Duke of Edinburgh is not covered by the letters patent of 1917, but he was created HRH in 1947 and a Prince of the United Kingdom in 1957. I don't see why she couldn't simply be granted those titles in addition to the title of HM the Queen, and then just use the Princess Consort titles. I wouldn't agree with it however, and I would prefer to see her as Queen.
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