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  #641  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Frothy, I rest my case. ONLY Parliament can remove her rank and title!
Why does noone ever react to my posts? - I said that Charles letting his wife be known as the "Duchess of Cornwall" may well have been deciding that this title is his higher one. So "Queen" is the next step.
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  #642  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:01 PM
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Branch, because only parliament, back then, could dissolve her marriage!!

Her rank and title rested with her marriage. She was not divorced, therefore, she could not lose the title of queen!

If she divorces, the queenship goes with it.
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  #643  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:03 PM
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Jo, sorry to have missed your post, I thought you were joking. Duchess of Cornwall is a lower title, and I'm sure the PoW would have seen it that way.

Interesting 'Consort' snippet. Albert was not made Prince Consort for his marriage, just gazetted HRH four days before the wedding. He was not officially made Prince Consort until some years later although everybody called him that from the get-go.

Edit to add: also, Jo, thought you were joking because it is wholly because Prince Charles has decided that she will be known as Princess Consort that Queen unfortunately isn't the next step, in common parlance anyway.

It's Charles's decision that got us into the King Charles and Princess Consort jam we find ourselves in. Charles must reverse it.
  #644  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
Why does noone ever react to my posts? - I said that Charles letting his wife be known as the "Duchess of Cornwall" may well have been deciding that this title is his higher one. So "Queen" is the next step.
In a sense, it IS a higher title (at least in the peerage of the UK) because he automatically became The Duke of Cornwall in 1952 as the eldest son and heir of The Sovereign. He also is entitled under law to the income and monies accrued from the Duchy itself as the eldest son and heir.

The title "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" is subject to the will of The Sovereign and is a tradition, rather than automatic. It is a more senior title because it is Prince of The Principality of Wales, rather than just a Duke of a duchy, however, it is lower than being a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ("HRH The Prince Charles").

So, my point regarding Camilla's current style and title remains the same. If her husband had no peerage or honours, she would be HRH The Princess Charles, which technically is senior in precedence than any peerages she holds as the wife of the titleholder.

Camilla has chosen to be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall (with the consent of the Sovereign) which is fine because it doesn't change her status as a princess of the UK through marriage or her official precedence in the kingdom.
  #645  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Prince Charles has decided that she will be known as Princess Consort that Queen unfortunately isn't the next step, in common parlance anyway.

It's Charles's decision that got us into the King Charles and Princess Consort jam we find ourselves in. Charles must reverse it.
It is not Charles decision as to what his wife will be called when he ascends the throne. That's why it was worded very carefully to say "it is intended" because the Crown cannot alter the title or style of the succession. That rests solely with Parliament with rights of assent to all the Crown Commonwealth nations.

There is no "jam" as you put it. He is not yet King and she is not yet the wife of the King. When and if this comes to pass, the Prime Minister will consult with Parliament and the Commonwealth to discuss the issue.

If polls show a strong majority of Britons oppose Camilla becoming Queen, then legislation will be introduced and passed by Parliament providing she will not share the King's rank, instead being styled at the will of the Sovereign as fount of honour. A separate bill defining her financial rights and claims against the royal estate will also have to be included in the Bill.

That's how it works in the UK parliamentary system of constitutional monarchy. It's not up to the King to do whatever he feels like doing.
  #646  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Legally and technically the woman is Princess of Wales, but she might as well not be, because she is only and forever and everywhere "known as" the Duchess of Cornwall - a lesser style she holds. Thus, her status is unquestionably diminished in the eyes of the world,
Legally she is Princess of Wales and although you clearly see her status as diminished, very many people do not. They see her as Camilla, the beloved wife of Prince Charles and a very important lady. Something that just having a title, any title cannot give.

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
If polls show a strong majority of Britons oppose Camilla becoming Queen, then legislation will be introduced and passed by Parliament providing she will not share the King's rank, instead being styled at the will of the Sovereign as fount of honour. A separate bill defining her financial rights and claims against the royal estate will also have to be included in the Bill.
Already more and more people are realising what asses they made of themselves and are happily supporting Charles and Camilla. When the time comes, IMO, the last thing that will be on anyone's mind is introducing this sort of legislation.
  #647  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:56 PM
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The Duchess of Cornwall is treated the same and granted the same honour and precedence as The Princess of Wales is. It is simply a title, which matters far less than her status as the wife of the heir to the throne. She is a Royal Highness and the second lady in the kingdom after HM The Queen.

The people have accepted Camilla as a good addition to the royal team and an honourable wife for Prince Charles. That is what is important here and I have no doubt she will be welcomed by most as HM Queen Camilla.
  #648  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:01 PM
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Sky, you don't see threads on TRF saying "Prince and Princess of Wales current events". It's everywhere, this downgrade. I assure you, I am a big Camilla fan. I hate what is being done to her titles. I hate messing with titles in general but care more in Camilla's case as I admire her so much.

Branchq,

You said

Quote:
If polls show a strong majority of Britons oppose Camilla becoming Queen, then legislation will be introduced and passed by Parliament providing she will not share the King's rank, instead being styled at the will of the Sovereign as fount of honour. A separate bill defining her financial rights and claims against the royal estate will also have to be included in the Bill.

That's how it works in the UK parliamentary system of constitutional monarchy. It's not up to the King to do whatever he feels like doing.
Actually, none of that will have to happen. She will automatically become Queen, but will be known as and styled by her lesser title, which will be created, making her HRH the Princess Consort. Refer you to the statement from the Department of Constitutional Affairs to just that effect, above.

I think the government knows best what legislation will have to be enacted to entitle the queen to be known as HRH the Princess Consort.

There's no question of stripping her of her rank as queen. But she will still be known by a new, lesser title the King will confer upon her.
  #649  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Actually, none of that will have to happen. She will automatically become Queen, but will be known as and styled by her lesser title, which will be created, making her HRH the Princess Consort. Refer you to the statement from the Department of Constitutional Affairs to just that effect, above.

I think the government knows best what legislation will have to be enacted to entitle the queen to be known as HRH the Princess Consort.

There's no question of stripping her of her rank as queen. But she will still be known by a new, lesser title the King will confer upon her.
She is automatically Queen Consort when Charles becomes King upon the death of his mother. The precedents of 1936 make it clear the wife of the King is Queen and cannot be "styled" as anything else without legislation being passed by Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth.

The King cannot act alone and issue letters patent creating his wife "HRH The Princess Consort" when she legally holds the title and rank of HM The Queen. Parliament would have to introduce a Bill to remove her legal rank, essentially making her a commoner ("Lady Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor"), freeing the King to create her a princess of the UK in her own right with precedence after His Majesty.

So, it's not so simple as you describe. It is legal and constitutional, with perogative of interpreting laws that rest with Parliament and not the Crown.
  #650  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:17 PM
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The commonwealth doesn't need to a law in regards to Camilla title, they will be consulted but it is up to the British Parliament to pass any laws in regards to her titles.

They will pass there own law regarding Charles title.
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  #651  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oppie
The commonwealth doesn't need to a law in regards to Camilla title, they will be consulted but it is up to the British Parliament to pass any laws in regards to her titles.

They will pass there own law regarding Charles title.
Correct. However, the Statute of Westminster grants all nations with The British Sovereign as head of state the right to assent in any change to the title, style or succession of the monarchy.

Given this point, the Crown Commonwealth nations would essentially have to include the title of the Consort when passing bills recognizing Charles as the new Sovereign and Head of State of their nations.
  #652  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:25 PM
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Branch, what the debate comes down to is going with either your personal assertion that this is the case:

Quote:
The precedents of 1936 make it clear the wife of the King is Queen and cannot be "styled" as anything else without legislation being passed by Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth.

The King cannot act alone and issue letters patent creating his wife "HRH The Princess Consort" when she legally holds the title and rank of HM The Queen. Parliament would have to introduce a Bill to remove her legal rank, essentially making her a commoner ("Lady Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor"), freeing the King to create her a princess of the UK in her own right with precedence after His Majesty.

or, you can have my argument to the contrary, which is she will be Queen, but NO legislation is needed to create her HRH the Princess Consort and that she can be styled this way whilst remaining Queen.

The difference is your assertion is merely an assertion, and my argument is backed by sources from the government

Quote:
A Department for Constitutional Affairs spokeswoman confirmed that legislation would be needed for Camilla not to become Queen automatically on Charles's succession.

"I think traditionally that's probably the case because in all similar circumstances in the past in past royal marriages that is what has happened," said the spokeswoman.

"But I think she is not going to be referred to as Queen, she will be referred to as the Princess Consort." Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: "I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen."
and the Royal Family:

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page5559.asp

Quote:
After the wedding, Mrs Parker Bowles became known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. When The Prince of Wales accedes to the throne, she will be known as HRH The Princess Consort.

I have sources as to what will be required, and you do not. Which is why I just cannot let it pass when I see some sort of statement that Camilla, although techincally queen, will be known as anything other than HRH the Princess Consort. It is only you who say she cannot be both queen and styled by and use a lesser title simultaneously. The government and Buck House both say otherwise. These are official sources and I prefer to go with them.
  #653  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Sky, you don't see threads on TRF saying "Prince and Princess of Wales current events". It's everywhere, this downgrade.
I have no problem with her using the 'lesser' title, I believe that with all the bad publicity that surrounded the title PssoW, it is better to skip a generation or two.
  #654  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:31 PM
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Personally i'd not like the idea of Camilla being Queen at all. I think it'd ruin some opinions of Diana's memory. Only my opinion but i want her to stay how she is and this took a long time for me to accept her even coming into the royal family but i've kinda gotten used to her now.
  #655  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
IWhich is why I just cannot let it pass when I see some sort of statement that Camilla, although techincally queen, will be known as anything other than HRH the Princess Consort.
Actually the scenario is far from certain. Government sources have been quoted as saying that something will come to pass when Charles ascends the throne that the laws on the books say is an impossibility.

How anyone can translate that scenario into a certainty that Camilla will be known as Princess Consort is beyond me. At best the situation is up in the air as to what her title will be. The statements say one thing; the laws anotehr.

The reason that some are leaning towards the possibility that Camilla will be known as Queen is the fact that government sources have been known to lie occasionally in order to keep up appearances in public.
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  #656  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:42 PM
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Frothy, I have agreed at many different points along the way that IF everyone is on the same page that is it OK for Camilla to be legally Queen Consort, but known as Princess Consort instead, than that is what will happen.

My point is there is no basis constitutionally this will come to pass without legislation due to the precedents and perogatives of the law. The statements you are citing and quoting are vague statements of intent from ministries, which may not be valid when the time comes.

If the public indicates opposition to Camilla being Queen, then it will be done one way or another. So, I agree with you.
  #657  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy_PD
Personally i'd not like the idea of Camilla being Queen at all. I think it'd ruin some opinions of Diana's memory. Only my opinion but i want her to stay how she is and this took a long time for me to accept her even coming into the royal family but i've kinda gotten used to her now.
That in my opinion is the worst reason not to grant Camilla the title of Queen. The monarchy cannot be turned into a century long living memorial to Diana or the Royal Family might as well just close up shop and turn Britain into a republic.
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  #658  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:47 PM
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I so agree, and it was the worst of reasons not to call her Princess of Wales. I want to see Camilla as Queen. (Known as). Perhaps an equerry is reading this and could ask HRH to change his mind, say 'you know it'll all be very awkward at a time of national mourning so we are now intending that she will simply use the normal title of Queen'.

You know what to do to bury the news? Announce that 'Princess Consort' is a dead duck the day Kate and William get engaged!
  #659  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:50 PM
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I think circumstances will change so when the times come, Camilla will be called and known as Queen Camilla. The most important thing is that Charles will success the throne after his mother. Once he becomes King, I believe Camilla will be accpeted as Queen Consort and there will be no challenge because it is a tradition that King's wife will be known as a Queen.

Frothy, I think all you quotes are official sources and they are quite powerful. I agree with you that these are current views about Camilla's future title as Queen Consort presenting many difficulties. If necessary, she may be known as HRH Princess Consort if the majority of British citizens stronly opposed a HM Queen Camilla.

However all I want to state is that the circustamnces changes. The view of the government will change and the palaces will finally change their positions as well. Even the view of the current government does not represent the view of the future governemnt. And the palace announcements are more likely to be an intention rather than a decision upon a situation.The Princess Consort farce is to avoid any challenge about Charles's succession right in my opinion.I know it sounds very cunning and a bit dishonest about the situiation, but I think this is the case.

Prince Charles alwyas fights with the time and use a long period of time to solve some difficult problems such as his remarriage,such as the challenge of his succession right. In a way he always gets what he wants because he gambles with the time.All we can do is to wait rather than the speculation.
  #660  
Old 01-14-2007, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
You know what to do to bury the news? Announce that 'Princess Consort' is a dead duck the day Kate and William get engaged!
Sneaky! I like it .
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