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  #501  
Old 10-02-2006, 12:24 AM
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I Think Camilla should and hopefully will be called Queen Consort they are legally married now after all.
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  #502  
Old 10-02-2006, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I think we're agreed that without legislation, Camilla won't actually be HRH the Princess Consort. But if she and Charles refer to her as such, even if she is legally Queen, who, realistically, is going to stop them?

(trying desperately to not mention Bozo the Clown again, after the trouble it caused last time... )
As BeatrixFan pointed out, the title has to be created with letters patent issued by The King. Since Camilla would already hold superior rank and precedence as Her Majesty, there would have to be a mechanism provided for her to assume a lesser rank as Princess Consort.

She cannot be "known as" an inferior rank and title once she is Queen. The present situation is different because Camilla is a princess of the UK regardless of her titles in the peerage as the wife of Prince Charles. She can choose to be styled by any of them without affecting her rank and precedence as HRH.
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  #503  
Old 10-02-2006, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
And Skydragon, Tony Wedgewood Benn did not use a lower title; he gave up his rank altogether.
He had to fight for some time to be able to do so and finally the law was changed with the introduction of The Peerage Act 1963, allowing renunciation of peerages and was given the Royal Assent and became law on 31st July 1963.

It is not a case of just giving up a title, it required a change in the law and until then he was known as Anthony Benn, therefore choosing to use a lesser title.
  #504  
Old 10-02-2006, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
She cannot be "known as" an inferior rank and title once she is Queen. The present situation is different because Camilla is a princess of the UK regardless of her titles in the peerage as the wife of Prince Charles. She can choose to be styled by any of them without affecting her rank and precedence as HRH.
Why not? British law doesn't stop people being known by names other than their own as long as there's no criminal intent involved. So she's Queen Camilla, and she and King Charles put the word out that in view of recent history and the circumstances surrounding their marriage, HM the Queen would like to be addressed and known as HRH The Princess Consort. Who's going to slam them in the Tower for it?

OK, I know and you know that it isn't going to happen that way. I'm just wondering why you're so adamant that it would be impossible. As far as I know, there's nothing in British law to stop people being known by names that aren't actually theirs.
  #505  
Old 10-02-2006, 02:41 PM
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It would be impossible Elspeth. Once you've been Queen, it makes absolutely no sense to be known as an inferior rank and remember - once she's crowned Queen Consort which will happen fairly soon after Charles becomes King, she is Queen Consort for the rest of her life. Now we know that in Britain it takes ages for a law change and I truly believe that they either wont bother or wont have the time to change it before Camilla is crowned.
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  #506  
Old 10-02-2006, 03:01 PM
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Wonder how soon itll be when Charles takes the Throne and how long will they wait between the passing of EII to the Coronation of C III (hope that makes sense)
  #507  
Old 10-02-2006, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It would be impossible Elspeth. Once you've been Queen, it makes absolutely no sense to be known as an inferior rank and remember - once she's crowned Queen Consort which will happen fairly soon after Charles becomes King, she is Queen Consort for the rest of her life. Now we know that in Britain it takes ages for a law change and I truly believe that they either wont bother or wont have the time to change it before Camilla is crowned.
Usually the coronation doesn't happen until about a year after the accession. If she decided she was going to be known as the Princess Consort, then obviously she wouldn't take part in the coronation except as a spectator. If they plan to go through with a joint coronation, then obviously she's going to have to acknowledge the Queen title right from the start. I just wonder what this "it is intended that she be known as Princess Consort" stuff is about on the royal websites, if there's no question that she'll (a) be Queen and (b) be known as such from the start. There were more ambiguous ways of wording it than "It is intended."
  #508  
Old 10-02-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Fan
Wonder how soon itll be when Charles takes the Throne and how long will they wait between the passing of EII to the Coronation of C III (hope that makes sense)
There's usually at least a year between the accession and the coronation, at least that's been the case over the past century. It seems they try to have coronations in the late spring or summer, so if the Queen dies in winter, it's possible there'll be more than a year. Of course, with Charles being rather elderly himself, they may decide to hurry it up just in case.
  #509  
Old 10-02-2006, 03:42 PM
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Elspeth

Quote:
think we're agreed that without legislation, Camilla won't actually be HRH the Princess Consort. But if she and Charles refer to her as such, even if she is legally Queen, who, realistically, is going to stop them?

(trying desperately to not mention Bozo the Clown again, after the trouble it caused last time... )
Best regards to Bozo - :) - but we're not agreed on that at all.

It is 100% wrong to state that without legisation Camillia won't actually be HRH the PC.

Without legislation, she will be the Queen.

But legislation is not needed to create a queen consort a princess in her own right; nor is it needed for a queen consort to use a lesser, but sua juris, title of her own.

It was considered in the case of Queen Caroline as referenced earlier.

Also as referenced, the government, Buckingham Palace and Clarence House all state she will be PC, and the government spokeswoman has said legislation would only be needed to deny her her rank as queen.

Nothing more than letters patent would be required to create her an own-right Princess of the UK cf: Prince Philip, Prince Albert, various uk princesses.
  #510  
Old 10-02-2006, 03:46 PM
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Branchq, you said

Quote:
Frothy, it has been made very clear by the Government that legislation would be required in the UK and the Crown Commonwealth nations for Camilla to be known as HRH The Princess Consort. When The Queen dies and Charles becomes The Sovereign, Camilla automatically becomes HM The Queen in her own right as the wife of the King.
Contradicting you, the government spokeswoman actually said the opposite:

Quote:
A Department for Constitutional Affairs spokeswoman confirmed that legislation would be needed for Camilla not to become Queen automatically on Charles's succession.

"I think traditionally that's probably the case because in all similar circumstances in the past in past royal marriages that is what has happened," said the spokeswoman.

"But I think she is not going to be referred to as Queen, she will be referred to as the Princess Consort." Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: "I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen."

It is only agreed that legislation would be required to deny her the rank of queen. No legislation would be needed for her to be created a Princess in her own right and to use that title instead.
  #511  
Old 10-02-2006, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It would be impossible Elspeth. Once you've been Queen, it makes absolutely no sense to be known as an inferior rank and remember - once she's crowned Queen Consort which will happen fairly soon after Charles becomes King, she is Queen Consort for the rest of her life. Now we know that in Britain it takes ages for a law change and I truly believe that they either wont bother or wont have the time to change it before Camilla is crowned.
I sometimes have the feeling that the discussion here does not get into the real problem: what happens to the monarchy if the plebs decides that the wife of the king should not be known as queen?

I say "plebs" as there is neither a democratic plebiscit nor the expressed wish of parliament nor government that the wife of the next king should not be known as his queen.

I understand that the announcement about the "Princess Consort" was made before the actual wedding, at a time when the public had no real idea of who the then Mrs. Camilla Parker Bowles was. It was clear that she had a remarkably negative image with enough people to eventually face problems as wife of The Prince of Wales. It was clear that part of the media was not willing to let be of their Diana-Camilla-Charles-triangle bestselling story. So what to do? The RF surely did not want to risk a major upheaval. And Camilla had yet to prove herself as a dignified memeber of the RF, as deserving the name and position of the next queen following Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and HM the Queen Elizabeth II. So I guess this announcement was a way to deal with the potential dangers of this marriage.

But - here in Germany we call something like that a "Absichtserklärung" (letter of intent - someone states that he plans to do something in the future). But if the situation changes he of course has the right to change his notions.

Did the situation change? I think so. Now people have come to know Camilla and those who have met her (including journalists) are convinced she is genuine and good for Britain. Thus, more and more people believe she will be a good queen. So why endanger the monarchy if there is not real need?

Because I sincerely believe that once the king has been forced (and that not by a democratic institution but by a public opinion easily manipulated by the media!) to reduce the wife of his own choice to a lesser rank, it can only come worse. Next step will be to throw all members of the Royal House (except the heirs of the direct line) out of the ranks of Royals. Lady Louise already is the beginning. We'll see Harry not getting a Royal dukedom and his kids being just Mr. and Miss Windsor... But once that happens, it's just a question of time till there will be no monarchy in Britain anymore.

That's the danger as I see it.
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  #512  
Old 10-02-2006, 03:55 PM
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I completely agree with you.

However, there is the continental precedent to consider. It is possible that the Dutch monarchy will be doing this the same time as the British one. That may make Princess Consort easier to swallow.

I am a traditionalist in every way when it comes to titles. I very much hope Camilla will use and not just legally be queen. To me, say what you like, Louise is not a real princess. What is the sound of one princess clapping alone in a forest, as it were? Or to put it another way, if it doesn't sound like a princess or - er - quack like a princess, it isn't a princess. 99 out of 100 British people do not think of Lady Louise as a princess. So whatever the legalities, effectively, she is not.

And if Camilla winds up being known as princess consort, effectively, she will not be queen, whatever her legal status.
  #513  
Old 10-02-2006, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
To me, say what you like, Louise is not a real princess. What is the sound of one princess clapping alone in a forest, as it were? Or to put it another way, if it doesn't sound like a princess or - er - quack like a princess, it isn't a princess. 99 out of 100 British people do not think of Lady Louise as a princess. So whatever the legalities, effectively, she is not.
Hm, why is Louise not a real princess? I mean everybody calls her cousins Beatrice and Eugenie princesses. But they are just daughters of a son of the current queen, exactly like Louise.

As for the Netherlands: the Netherlands have a tradition of three queens in a row now with only a prince consort at their side. For close to (or more, not sure now) a century they have not had a king with his wife, the queen. Thus, it's a different situation. The Brits have had quite some formidable queens in a row: Victoria I., Alexandra, Mary, Elizabeth and now Elizabeth II. So for them this change to a queenless monarchy would be much more difficult than for the Dutch and I'm always afraid that one opens Pandora's box if one changes such traditions. You'll never know where this will end.

The fact that even much more absolute monarchs did not mess around with titles when it came to their wifes, even if they hated them, should tell us something. True, Catherine of Aragon wasn't allowed to keep her title as queen after the dissolution of her marriage to the king but due to his view that his marriage to her had not been legally binding because she had been his brother's widow before, Catherine was known as the "Princess Dowager of Wales" officially.

Anne of Cleves was granted the title of "The King's Most Honored Sister" after the anullment of her marriage and ranked as the second lady in the realm after Henry's new queen, but with precedence before Mary and Elizabeth, the king's daughters. IIRC she even had the precedence over Elizabeth when she attended the coronation of queen Mary On her burial site in Westminster Abbey it still says "Anne of Cleves, queen of England". Queen Caroline was not crowned, but she was the queen and called that way in all documents.

I see it as dangerous to the future of the monarchy if Charles should allow to lessen the position of his wife after he becomes king.
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  #514  
Old 10-02-2006, 06:13 PM
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It would be a total farce if Camilla was to legally be HM The Queen but styled by a title and rank inferior to her rightful status. The marriage would be morganatic and an unprecedented slap in the face to The King and his Consort.

It would also raise the question of what happened in 1936 with Edward VIII. If Charles could marry Camilla before becoming King and have her share all of his titles, styles and rank, then why can she not be Queen? He might as well abdicate like his great-uncle did.

This is a ridiculous notion and I cannot imagine any Prime Minister or Parliament agreeing to allow The King to issue letters patent stripping his wife of her constitutional right to be HM.
  #515  
Old 10-02-2006, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
It is only agreed that legislation would be required to deny her the rank of queen. No legislation would be needed for her to be created a Princess in her own right and to use that title instead.
The only way to be HRH The Princess Consort is for The Sovereign to issue letters patent creating it. Once Charles ascends the throne, his wife constitutionally is HM Queen Camilla for the rest of her life. It is impossible for her to hold the rank and title of HRH Princess of the UK if she is already Queen.

The only way to accomplish this would be for Parliament to pass legislation stating the wife of The King will not have the right to automatically share his rank, which will be determined by the will of The Sovereign as fount of honour instead. Since this constitutes a change to the style and title of the monarchy, it needs the consent of the 16 Crown Commonwealth nations as well.

So, it is one and the same.
  #516  
Old 10-02-2006, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It would be impossible Elspeth. Once you've been Queen, it makes absolutely no sense to be known as an inferior rank and remember - once she's crowned Queen Consort which will happen fairly soon after Charles becomes King, she is Queen Consort for the rest of her life. Now we know that in Britain it takes ages for a law change and I truly believe that they either wont bother or wont have the time to change it before Camilla is crowned.
She is Queen Camilla for the rest of her life the moment her husband becomes The Sovereign, which happens immediately after the death of The Queen. She doesn't need to be crowned at all.
  #517  
Old 10-02-2006, 09:40 PM
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So Consorts dont get crowned
  #518  
Old 10-02-2006, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Fan
So Consorts dont get crowned
Female consorts do; male ones don't.
  #519  
Old 10-02-2006, 10:28 PM
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I was talking spiritually branchg. Of course, legally she will become Queen immediately when the Queen passes on - I've said that many times. But from a coronation point of view, once she makes that oath - she's Queen Consort till she goes.
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  #520  
Old 10-03-2006, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I was talking spiritually branchg. Of course, legally she will become Queen immediately when the Queen passes on - I've said that many times. But from a coronation point of view, once she makes that oath - she's Queen Consort till she goes.
I hope they will simply go through with the coronation for both of them and that's that then. While there are of course still some people who don't want to see her as queen, I guess the majority either wants it, is not really interested in the exact proceedings but supports the monarchy (and thus that the wife of the king is the queen) or is indifferent.

There is a very important mileage between being against Camilla as a person and wanting to change the traditions of the monarchy. The Anti-Camilla movement (if it still exists as a movement at all) should never forget that to toy with the monarchy means to risk the end of it. And who really wnats that?
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