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  #381  
Old 09-06-2006, 08:48 PM
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Well I think its apporiate that the Duchess of Cornwall should be known as H.R.H The Princess Consort if Charles ascends the throne. I don't think she should become a Queen Consort. I don't mean to offend anyone but thats my opinion.
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  #382  
Old 09-06-2006, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234
Well I think its apporiate that the Duchess of Cornwall should be known as H.R.H The Princess Consort if Charles ascends the throne. I don't think she should become a Queen Consort. I don't mean to offend anyone but thats my opinion.

Out of curiosity, why shouldn't she be Queen Consort? Isn't that the title of the wife of the King?
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234
Well I think its apporiate that the Duchess of Cornwall should be known as H.R.H The Princess Consort if Charles ascends the throne. I don't think she should become a Queen Consort. I don't mean to offend anyone but thats my opinion.

If Diana was still alive would you still think this way? Or is it only because she's deceased? I'm no fan of the part she played in the breakup of their marriage, but she's Charles's lawful wife and entitled to being styled as Queen when he ascends the throne.

As I stated in one of these other threads, I know several people, British and non-British that feel the way you do, but barring some extreme act of Parliament, it's not going to happen.
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  #384  
Old 09-06-2006, 09:23 PM
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I have to say that I am not a fan of either of Prince Charles' wives. I do feel a measure of sympathy for a young Diana not having the fairytale marriage that all young girls hope for. But - when the time comes for Charles to ascend the throne, wouldn't he, as King, have to request that Parliament passes a law to strip Camilla of the title of HM the Queen Consort so that she could be given the lesser title of Princess Consort? If he goes to that kind of trouble, it would obviously be the decision of Charles and Camilla as I don't think anyone is pressuring them into it. Camilla's acceptance grows daily. Perhaps a decision for her to be known as Princess Consort instead of Queen Consort should be respected because it would be their personal choice. Just IMHO. I would have no problem with Camilla being either Queen or Princess Consort when the time comes. She may legally be HM The Queen Consort, but shouldn't she have the right to choose?
  #385  
Old 09-06-2006, 09:24 PM
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It just wouldn't be appropriate for the Government, The Queen and The Archbishop of Canterbury to all give their blessing to Charles marrying Camilla and then denying her rightful rank as Queen when he is King. What's the point of allowing them to marry in the first place?

If she was good enough to become the wife of the heir, then she's good enough to be Queen.
  #386  
Old 09-06-2006, 09:42 PM
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If Diana was still alive would you still think this way?
Yes I would . But I don't think Camilla is a bad person. I believe that the Queen Consort title should be given to someone who is in touch with the people and also has a connection with the people. If Camilla devolps a more better relationship with the people of England and does more charity work then I wouldn't object to Camilla becoming the Queen Consort.
  #387  
Old 09-06-2006, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234
Yes I would . But I don't think Camilla is a bad person. I believe that the Queen Consort title should be given to someone who is in touch with the people and also has a connection with the people. If Camilla devolps a more better relationship with the people of England and does more charity work then I wouldn't object to Camilla becoming the Queen Consort.

Queen Consort = wife the King Regnant.


The title has nothing to do with and no bearing on the person's abilities to connect with people or be in touch with people. The title is not contigent upon winning Miss Congeniality. Whether she's Miss Mary Sunshine or a cantankerous old woman, when Charles is King, she will be Queen Consort.
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  #388  
Old 09-07-2006, 02:48 AM
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If Camilla is known as 'the Queen' (and if this is the case then I will surely accept it), I just believe that the intended title of 'Princess Consort' was really an ill thought out or ill advised alternative that many new would never come to pass and that to me, does not say much for the advisory council of Buckingham Palace or more specifically, Clarence House.

Perhaps it was used as a way of measuring public response to the possibility of Camilla becoming Queen Consort (hence the word 'intended').
  #389  
Old 09-07-2006, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234
Yes I would . But I don't think Camilla is a bad person. I believe that the Queen Consort title should be given to someone who is in touch with the people and also has a connection with the people. If Camilla devolps a more better relationship with the people of England and does more charity work then I wouldn't object to Camilla becoming the Queen Consort.
I believe Camilla has developed a relationship with the people in her own way. Nobody can ask for more.

It is Camilla's right to be Queen Consort and if Parliament/Clarence House/whoever take time and energy to give her the title Princess Consort then that is a sad use of time.
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  #390  
Old 09-07-2006, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
If Camilla is known as 'the Queen' (and if this is the case then I will surely accept it), I just believe that the intended title of 'Princess Consort' was really an ill thought out or ill advised alternative that many new would never come to pass and that to me, does not say much for the advisory council of Buckingham Palace or more specifically, Clarence House.

Perhaps it was used as a way of measuring public response to the possibility of Camilla becoming Queen Consort (hence the word 'intended').
I think during the news of engagement, the clarence house wanted to soften some attitude towards Charles and Camilla's marriage. Then they announced that Camilla will not be called Princess of Wales or Queen. However later the news turned out that Camilla is legally Princess of Wales or Queen in the future which sounds like hiding some facts or misleading some facts. Camilla will be Queen Consort when Charles becomes King Even Camilla really not wanting to be called Queen, she will learn to accept the fact that marrying a heir to the throne will become Queen. Basically Camilla will never do anything to block Charles's rights to inherit the throne and she will compromise finally because that is the way the tradition set.
  #391  
Old 09-07-2006, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by love_cc
I think during the news of engagement, the clarence house wanted to soften some attitude towards Charles and Camilla's marriage. Then they announced that Camilla will not be called Princess of Wales or Queen. However later the news turned out that Camilla is legally Princess of Wales or Queen in the future which sounds like hiding some facts or misleading some facts. Camilla will be Queen Consort when Charles becomes King Even Camilla really not wanting to be called Queen, she will learn to accept the fact that marrying a heir to the throne will become Queen. Basically Camilla will never do anything to block Charles's rights to inherit the throne and she will compromise finally because that is the way the tradition set.

Wait, did Camilla publicly object to being called Princess of Wales/Queen Consort? Because that's what it sounds like you just said.
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  #392  
Old 09-07-2006, 06:56 AM
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It really doesn't matter what anyone on here says, when the time comes, the decision will be made by the government of the time and the British public.

Quote:
Someone mentioned outrage? Dear, I hope not. If there is, surely it will be the traditionalist factions who are as intolerable to change as the IHA of Japan.
I object to being compared to the IHA, it will not just be the traditionalist factions, but people who accept that Charles has the same rights as anyone else to be married to the woman he loves and believe she has every right to be known and accepted as Queen Consort when he becomes King.
  #393  
Old 09-07-2006, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
I object to being compared to the IHA
Perhaps it was not 'the' best comparison.

Quote:
It really doesn't matter what anyone on here says, when the time comes, the decision will be made by the government of the time and the British public.
Good thing I hold a British passport then
  #394  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:28 AM
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Branch,

Quote:
Legally, she cannot style herself HRH The Princess Consort because she is not a princess and The King has to make her one. How do you make a Queen Consort a princess?
You have yet to adduce any evidence for this statement. I say it is not so. Was legislation required to create Albert Prince Consort? Or to make Philip a Prince of the UK? The only previous consort to a Queen Regnant had been known as King Consort - both in England and in Scotland. All I see needed here is some letters patent conferring on Camilla the title of PC and saying she will use that instead of her legal status as queen (which would remain, but be irrelevant since she would be known as a princess all her life).

The rest of your post, with all due respect - I'm sure you were trying to be helpful - told me stuff I already know. I am well aware of the order of precedence in the UK and what is due to wives and divorced wives and the reason a royal duchess is a Princess etc.

None of it addressed my point re: Princess Alice. Alice was a princess but only through marriage. To give her the use of her first name gave her a style reserved for born princesses, as you know, and it implied, as you know, that she was an OWN right princess of the UK. There was no precedent for that. Now, not only was legislation not brought forward for this odd title, letters patent were not even issued. The will of the Queen was enough.

I say that the only legislation required here is to deny Camilla the legal status of queen not that she should use the style of HRH the Princess Consort.

Buckingham Palace has already said this will happen. I do not know why there is doubt about it on this forum when Buckingham Palace has confirmed it!
  #395  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:35 AM
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Jo of Palatine, I fully agree. I want to see Camilla as Queen. I think there is a dangerous complacency on TRF assuming the palace didn't really mean it when they said she'll be known as Princess Consort. Unless something happens to change it, she will. Legally queen, known as PC.

I am mostly a fan of Charles and a tremendous fan of Camilla.
  #396  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:37 AM
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The Palace never said it would happen. They said it was "intended" that Camilla would be known as Princess Consort.

The Department of Constitutional Affairs confirmed shortly before the wedding that Camilla would be the legal wife of Prince Charles and share all of his titles and rank. When he becomes King, they confirmed legislation would be required for Camilla to be known as Princess Consort.

It is a political matter for a future Government and Parliament to consider when the time comes. If public opposition remains strong against Camilla being Queen (which I highly doubt will be the case), then legislation will be passed allowing The King to create her HRH The Princess Consort instead.
  #397  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
You have yet to adduce any evidence for this statement. I say it is not so. Was legislation required to create Albert Prince Consort? Or to make Philip a Prince of the UK? The only previous consort to a Queen Regnant had been known as King Consort - both in England and in Scotland. All I see needed here is some letters patent conferring on Camilla the title of PC and saying she will use that instead of her legal status as queen (which would remain, but be irrelevant since she would be known as a princess all her life).
Frothy,

The husband of a reigning Queen does not share her rank and can be granted any title or rank the Sovereign decides, short of being King.

In the case of Philip, he was created a Royal Highness by George VI and granted the titles of Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich the night before his wedding to Princess Elizabeth. He relinquished his title as a Prince of Greece & Denmark when he was naturalized to British citizenship as Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN.

In 1957, The Queen created Philip a Prince of the UK with precedence ahead of all princes of the blood royal, including Prince Charles. At that point, he became HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

Unlike a male consort, the wife of the King shares his rank and is Queen. To hold a lesser rank requires an Act of Parliament because there has never been a morganatic marriage for the King. The precedents must be established and defined constitutionally because the Crown may not act independently of Parliament on matters of law.

The King cannot issue letters patent creating his wife a princess of the UK without parliamentary consent, as was made clear by the Department of Constitutional Affairs before the wedding.
  #398  
Old 09-07-2006, 10:08 AM
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I thought this would be an interesting source to add to the discussion if I may

Taken from TimesOnline and dated: March 21, 2005

Quote:
Camilla Parker Bowles will automatically become Queen when the Prince of Wales succeeds to the throne unless there is a change in the law, the Government confirmed tonight.

The Department for Constitutional Affairs admitted legislation would be needed no matter what Camilla wished to call herself when Charles becomes King, to prevent this happening.

It is believed to be the first time that the Government has acknowledged this stance on the record.

Clarence House has previously insisted that the Government agreed with its view, taken from legal advice, that it was only a convention for the wife of the King to be known as Queen.

The Prince's aides did admit, when the royal engagement was announced, that legislation might be needed to tidy the issue up later on.

Mrs Parker Bowles will be known as the Duchess of Cornwall after her marriage at Windsor on April 8 and intends to take the title Princess Consort when the Prince accedes the throne.

A Department for Constitutional Affairs spokeswoman confirmed that legislation would be needed for Camilla not to become Queen automatically on Charles's succession.

"I think traditionally that's probably the case because in all similar circumstances in the past in past royal marriages that is what has happened," said the spokeswoman.

"But I think she is not going to be referred to as Queen, she will be referred to as the Princess Consort." Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: "I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen."

Tony Blair's official spokesman said: "The position at the moment is limited to what the title would be on her marriage. In terms of any future events, let's wait until future events arise."

On the question of whether Mrs Parker Bowles would automatically become Queen in the absence of legislation, the spokesman added: "I'm not disputing what you have said."

A Clarence House spokesman said tonight: "With any legal situation there are always different views.

"If the Government said legislation would be needed it wouldn't be a problem. It can easily be done in the Civil List Act. "This is something which is a long way in the future, we hope."

Earlier t
he Government confirmed that the marriage will not be "morganatic", which means that the couple's decision not to call her Queen Camilla will have no legal standing.

Hmm I wonder what 'their' concept of 'easily' is. Perhaps, 'you deal with it and let us know the outcome.'

It is my understanding that the civil list is revised at every accession is it not? So, this does provide the opportunity to elucidate the legal pose and push forward with such legislation. Whether or not it happens of course, is another matter.

I just generally find it, a most interesting circumstance.
  #399  
Old 09-07-2006, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
Perhaps it was not 'the' best comparison. Good thing I hold a British passport then
No it was not. Traditionalists would find it hard to cope with such concepts as divorce and remarriage, I like many others think it is wonderful that people can realize their mistake and move on.
It will not be the traditionalist factions who are intolerable to change who would be outraged at any attempt to demote Camilla to PC, but ordinary people who have realised what an absolute treasure, Charles and the UK has in Camilla.

Many traditions should be upheld, but there are also many which should be disgarded (such as a male child taking precedence over his older sister/s).

There are many British passport holders, I'm afraid that doesn't make you a member of the British public and quite possibly by the time it is up for debate, Australia will no longer even be part of the commonwealth.
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Old 09-07-2006, 10:59 AM
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I like many others think it is wonderful that people can realize their mistake and move on.
Quote:
but there are also many which should be disgarded (such as a male child taking precedence over his older sister/s).
I agree.

Quote:
I'm afraid that doesn't make you a member of the British public and quite possibly by the time it is up for debate, Australia will no longer even be part of the commonwealth.
With all due respect, you are not aware of where I have resided, how long for, or how frequently I may visit Britain.

Quote:
There are many British passport holders, I'm afraid that doesn't make you a member of the British public and quite possibly by the time it is up for debate, Australia will no longer even be part of the commonwealth.
And as a member of the British public, I object to your comment for I have as much of a legal say as you.

As for Australia...

When Australia becomes a republic the governing body will be that of a federal republic and shall retain its position within the Commonwealth of Nations as a sovereign governing independency, so to say Australia shall no longer be part of the Commonwealth is entirely inaccurate.

Furthermore, an Australian republic has no concequence on my British citizenship and there is very little likeliness that by the time Charles is King, that Australia would have become a republic.
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