King Charles and Queen Camilla

[Frothy]

That is simply not the case. Buckingham Palace made the announcement that it was intended that she will be HRH the Princess Consort upon the accession of Charles.

An announcement made, accepted in the British press, in Wikipedia, on the official website of the royal family - everywhere except here!

I hope Charles changes his intention and gives his wife the title and more importantly the style that is her due. But I'm not too hopeful, since even on TRF she is referred to as 'the Duchess of Cornwall'.

Where is the precedent for that? No Princess of Wales has done it in our history.

Once you mess with precedent, you get into trouble IMO.

 

[Frothy]

And while we are at it, even the small wiggle room of "intended that" has been eliminated on the Royal Family's official government website, which the Royal Household approves:

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page3974.asp

After the wedding, Mrs Parker Bowles became known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. When The Prince of Wales accedes to the throne, she will be known as HRH The Princess Consort.

This official source (note the .gov) affirms that she'll be legally queen but "known as" PC, just as in a severe breach of hundreds of years of precedent, she is "known as" the Duchess of Cornwall instead of her husband's style.

I am only happy when i see them in Scotland and the captions say "The Duke and Duchess of Rothesay".

 

[Skydragon]

That is simply not the case. Buckingham Palace made the announcement that it was intended that she will be HRH the Princess Consort upon the accession of Charles.

When asked BP put forward the suggestion that she would be known as Princess Consort, however the PoW website is worded thus:-

It is intended that The Duchess of Cornwall should use the title HRH The Princess Consort when The Prince of Wales accedes to The Throne

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/doc/duchess_cornwall_01.html

As Charles will be King, he might have more to say about what she is called, he fought to marry her (despite a lot thinking he would not). As many have already said the only reason that BP made any statement at all, was because of the threat of demonstrations at the time of the wedding. I am glad to say most of the British public (IMO) have moved on.

 

[Skydragon]

An announcement made, accepted in the British press, in Wikipedia

It was a statement rather than an announcement and of course the two sources mentioned are 100% reliable!

 

[branchg]

The bottom line is Camilla will be Queen Consort the moment Charles becomes King. The Government made clear legislation is necessary for Camilla to be known as HRH The Princess Consort. It remains highly doubtful any such legislation would ever make it to the floor of the Commons.

She will be HM Queen Camilla when Charles becomes the Sovereign.

 

[kimebear]

Camilla supporters,

I am in no way attempting to belittle your opinion of Camilla, or her achievements, or her importance to Charles. No one disputes the fact that she will legally become HM Queen Camilla, the Queen Consort when Charles takes the throne unless Parliament is petitioned to deny her the title. Well, who besides Charles, as King, would be in a position to do such a thing? I admit that I do not know enough about English law to state anything else with absolute certainty. I think that Parliament could take the initiative themselves, but really, would they bother at this point?

If it is only the King that could make such a request, and Charles does so, knowing how he feels about his "darling" (and I do not mean this in a negative way), shouldn't his subjects respect his wishes which would almost certainly reflect Camilla's? He most likely is shopping the "Princess Consort" title around while there is still some dissent (hence the wording intended) and will make a final decision upon his ascension. Camilla will almost certainly be referred to as Queen Camilla, in law, in private and in public, and rightfully so. However, if it is the wish of C & C for her to be named Princess Consort instead, shouldn't their wishes be respected by their subjects? Just my humble opinion.

 

[Skydragon]

He most likely is shopping the "Princess Consort" title around while there is still some dissent (hence the wording intended) and will make a final decision upon his ascension. Camilla will almost certainly be referred to as Queen Camilla, in law, in private and in public, and rightfully so. However, if it is the wish of C & C for her to be named Princess Consort instead, shouldn't their wishes be respected by their subjects? Just my humble opinion.

Thank you for your kind and considered post.

Of course it will be up to Charles and Camilla when the time comes, but I really believe that they only suggested the PC title until the public had a chance to get to know Camilla. If Charles and Camilla wish her to be called princess consort and if parliament and the HoL's back them, then that is what she will be known as in public.

I think the point most of us are trying to make is that it will require legislation and I doubt that in the fervour that will IMO be evident at Charles' becoming King, very few will have the courage {ed. - Elspeth} to bring it up and endeaver to push it through.

 

[Frothy]

Branch Q,

No, legislation will not be required to gazette the queen with the additional title of HRH the Princess Consort and for her to use that title. Letters patent alone will be required.

The Government did not make it clear that legislation would be required for her to be known as the Princess Consort.

The Government made it clear legislation would be required to deny her the status of Queen. Not that she should be known by a lesser title she will bear.

If you assert again that legislation will be required for her to use a lesser title, can you cite some source? A government document... a newspaper report.... anything at all? You were incorrect on the matter of the Kings Consort of England and Scotland and I submit you are also wrong on this one. The Times report cited earlier in the thread supports my contention - legislation only needed to deny her the techincal rank of queen, nothing needed for her to be known as Princess Consort. I am citing evidence, can you cite some, other than an assertion?

Here's my evidence:

A Department for Constitutional Affairs spokeswoman confirmed that legislation would be needed for Camilla not to become Queen automatically on Charles's succession.

"I think traditionally that's probably the case because in all similar circumstances in the past in past royal marriages that is what has happened," said the spokeswoman.

"But I think she is not going to be referred to as Queen, she will be referred to as the Princess Consort." Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: "I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen."

So that is a government spokeswoman confirming my position that the only legislation needed is to deny her the rank of queen not to style her Princess. What evidence can you adduce to counter that?


Skydragon,

It was an announcement. And I frankly think the British broadsheet press is as good an authority as this website.

You and BranchQ are ignoring the official, government site of the Royal Family listed above. Again, it is quite clear:

After the wedding, Mrs Parker Bowles became known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. When The Prince of Wales accedes to the throne, she will be known as HRH The Princess Consort.

The Prince of Wales' site confirms this: it is intended, etc.

Nowhere - absolutely nowhere - does anybody say it is intended, or it will happen, that she will be known as Her Majesty the Queen.

 

[kimebear]

I agree with you Skydragon. Certainly the appropriate decision will be made when the time comes.

 

[Skydragon]

The Government made it clear legislation would be required to deny her the status of Queen. Not that she should be known by a lesser title she will bear.

To be known by a lesser title, it will have to be made legal, to become legal, laws would have to be passed, it really is as simple as that.

And I frankly think the British broadsheet press is as good an authority as this website.

Oh dear, even the British do not think that any of the papers are a reliable source, a lot of the posters on this website (nnm) have fully researched the point they are making, to inform, not to earn money with a headline grabber, unlike the press.

Nowhere - absolutely nowhere - does anybody say it is intended, or it will happen, that she will be known as Her Majesty the Queen.

That is because it is taken as read that she will become Queen Consort. Nowhere - absolutely nowhere - does it state that she definately won't.

We can go on and on about our different interpretations of statements made by BP, but when the time comes it will be up to the King and parliament.

 

[Frothy]

Skydragon,

To be known by a lesser title, it will have to be made legal, to become legal, laws would have to be passed, it really is as simple as that.

It really isn't. She is currently known by a lesser title. A Princess is known by the style of mere 'Lady'. No laws have been passed.

A government spokeswoman from the Dept. of Constitutional Affairs confirms that legislation would only be needed to deny the rank of queen. If the government confirms she can be queen but known as Princess Consort, I genuinely can't see why that is still not being accepted?

The Palace says it and the government department involved says it. Who else is there to consult?

That is because it is taken as read that she will become Queen Consort. Nowhere - absolutely nowhere - does it state that she definately won't.

Of course she will become queen consort automatically. We all agree on that. This debate is about whether legislation is needed for her to use the lesser style of PC.

The government spokeswoman in the relevant department says not.

"she will be referred to as the Princess Consort"

That's the government's position.

Look, we're all on the same side as far as wanting her to be styled and titled as queen. But Buck House and the Govt agree no legislation is needed for her to use a lesser title she is granted.

 

[kimebear]

Frothy,

A Princess is known by the style of mere 'Lady'. No laws have been passed.

If you are referring to Lady Louise, the difference is that her father is an Earl. The daughter of an Earl is accorded the courtesy title of "Lady". No new laws have been passed because, out of courtesy, Louise already has this style. Camilla, not being a royal princess in her own right can only, out of courtesy, take the female version of her husband's royal titles. As Charles will not hold a princely title after he is king, (I think Prince of Wales will be held in abeyance for William?) Camilla can only use a princess title with the consent of Parliament. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Also, as for Lady Louise, she is styled as the daughter of an Earl, but she is still legally HRH Princess Louise of Wessex and may use that title when she's 18, unless Letters Patent say she cannot. Her being styled as the daughter of an Earl was at the request of her parents. Her father is not known as HRH The Prince of Wessex, he's known as the Earl of Wessex. That is different than the situation with Charles and Camilla.


Charles is a Prince and he is styled as a Prince. He is also a Duke and Camilla is styled as the wife of a Duke, but can it be considered a lesser title if she is also a Princess since Charles is a Prince? This is just semantics, really. She could have chosen to be known as the Princess of Wales upon her marriage, but she opted to use another one of his titles instead out of respect. Good on her for that, but after reading pages and pages of replies.....I can't see Camilla WILLINGLY being styled as anything less than Queen Consort when the time comes. If Parliament wants to say that it's not an equal marriage and she should be styled as the morgantic wife of the King [a la the Princess de Rethy], that's a severe misstep on their part, I feel.

 

[sirhon11234]

I think you are wrong, as time passes she will become more and more popular and not just because she is the wife of the Prince of Wales

I doubt that Camilla will get more and more popular. But I'am sure the British public will accept camilla a little bit more.

 

[Royal Fan]

I Agree they will grow to accept her (I Have).

 

[branchg]

Frothy,

The critical point you are missing is that Camilla is both a princess of the UK (by virtue of her marriage) and Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay, etc. She can choose to be known by any of her husband's titles, but this does not change her rank and precedence as a princess of the UK.

Once Charles is King, Camilla shares his rank and become HM The Queen. Unlike the present situation, there is no other style or title she may hold as the wife of the King without raising the question of a morganatic marriage. Therefore, Parliament must act with legislation to clarify her status and grant approval for the wife of the King to hold a lesser rank and title. The King cannot act alone on this matter.

Louise is a princess of the UK by right of being a male-line granddaughter of The Queen. Since her parents also hold titles in the peerage as The Earl and Countess of Wessex, she can be styled as Lady Louise without affecting her legal status as HRH. But she retains the right to style herself HRH Princess Louise in the future because that's what she is.

 

[ysbel]

Its possible for Camilla to announce upon her accession to Queen that she prefers to be called Princess Consort but as Elspeth says, unless Parliament changes legislation, Camilla will have to be referred to as Queen in the legal documents and that will make the whole Princess Consort deal look very silly.

Actually if Charles and Camilla do nothing at all, Camilla will be Queen Consort both in name and in fact because to make her a Queen Consort requires nothing more than the accession of her husband to the throne. To make her Princess Consort will require something more than that - change in legislation to make it an official title change - or an announcement from Charles and Camilla stating that she wishes to be called Princess Consort.

A simple announcement from Clarence House doesn't have the authority of Parliament legislation or the Letters Patent and the British royal website has been known to be wrong about titles before as hard as that is to believe. BTW no letters patent were issued for either Camilla or Lady Louise.

 

[love_cc]

Thanks for your clarification, Ysbel. If Charles and Camilla do nothing, Camilla will become Queen automatically once Charles succeeds his mother. Charles and Camilla must either let the parliament to change the law or publicly announce that her title will be Princess Consort.

Camilla will intend to use Princess Consort when Charles inherits the throne from his mother. We should read between lines about the later part. Robert Lacey interprated the statement stressing Charles' will to become King rather than Camilla to take the Princess Consort. He is probably right. Clarence House can use such a way to state the fact that Charles will never give up his birthright. "Intention" is such a careful wording which leaves the space for future neogiations about Camilla's status. However we know Camilla will be known as Queen Camilla neverless what has been said before their marriage.

 

[branchg]

Letters patent are not necessary in Camilla's case because she is styled by one of the many titles she enjoys as the wife of Prince Charles. As I stated earlier, she became a princess of the UK upon marriage and her precedence flows from her rank as a Royal Highness, not any peerages she may share.

Lady Louise remains HRH Princess Louise and this could only be removed by new letters patent modifying the 1917 Letters Patent as to who in the royal family is entitled to the style and title of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK. Since The Queen seems reluctant to strip her York granddaughters of their title and rank as Princesses of the UK, it seems likely the issue will remain on the shelf until Charles becomes King.

I would predict, however, that the future royal family will be limited to the children of the sovereign and the children and eldest grandchild of the heir to the throne. Everyone else would simply be styled by their peerages or The Lord/Lady Windsor.

 

[branchg]

Robert Lacey interprated the statement stressing Charles' will to become King rather than Camilla to take the Princess Consort. He is probably right. Clarence House can use such a way to state the fact that Charles will never give up his birthright. "Intention" is such a careful wording which leaves the space for future neogiations about Camilla's status. However we know Camilla will be known as Queen Camilla neverless what has been said before their marriage.

Under the Act of Settlement, Charles is automatically King when The Queen passes away and he cannot give it up. Like Edward VIII in 1936, Parliament would have to pass an Act allowing him to abdicate as The Sovereign.

The "intention" recognizes Parliament's perogative to determine the status and rank of Camilla after Charles is King. If they agree to do so, Parliament and the 16 Crown Commonwealth nations could pass legislation allowing her to reliniquish her title as Queen Consort, paving the way for Charles to issue letters patent creating her HRH The Princess Consort instead.

This is the only way Camilla could be styled Princess Consort once she is legally HM The Queen.

 

[Skydragon]

I would like you all to imagine the scene ....

Huge banquet, 100's of guests, we have had the majority of the 12 courses and are waiting for desert, cheese and biscuits, the port..... The toastmaster stands and bangs the table to get our attention and says ..

Lords, Ladies and Gentlemen, pray raise your glasses in a toast to King Charles and Queen Camilla, also known as Camilla the Princess Consort, also known as Mrs Charles Mountbatten-Windsor, also known as the former Mrs Parker Bowles, also known as Bozo ....

 

[Avalon]

I would like you all to imagine the scene ....

Huge banquet, 100's of guests, we have had the majority of the 12 courses and are waiting for desert, cheese and biscuits, the port..... The toastmaster stands and bangs the table to get our attention and says ..

Lords, Ladies and Gentlemen, pray raise your glasses in a toast to King Charles and Queen Camilla, also known as Camilla the Princess Consort, also known as Mrs Charles Mountbatten-Windsor, also known as the former Mrse Parker Bowles, also known as Bozo ....

Now, it's all your fault, Skydragon! I fall off the chair! Mrs Bozo is too funny.
For the sake of all toastmakers, Camilla should be known as Queen!

 

[ysbel]

also known as Bozo ....

now I wonder what would go in front of Bozo?

Her Majesty Bozo
Her Royal Hghness Bozo
Her Most Excellent Bozo

 

[Sister Morphine]

HRH Bozo, The Princess Consort

 

[Madame Royale]

HRH Bozo, The Princess Consort

Imagine having to sign that on official documentation, no matter what the style and title.

Its good to have a laugh, as I am sure you will all agree

 

[Sister Morphine]

Imagine having to sign that on official documentation, no matter what the style and title.

Its good to have a laugh, as I am sure you will all agree

Yes, I completely agree.


TBH, the people who staunchy feel that Camilla should be styled as The Princess Consort probably don't give two you-know-whats about the name in front of that.

 

[Madame Royale]

While I would, personally, prefer Camilla to be known officially as HRH the Princess Consort, it shall not be the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination if she is not and as I have stated, I will surely accept it in good faith and will think of her no differently to any of her continental counterparts and nor should I.

 

[Incas]

Can someone explain the "Bozo" reference?

 

[Sister Morphine]

Can someone explain the "Bozo" reference?

Quite simple. Read this post.


http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/502408-post404.html

 

[love_cc]

While I would, personally, prefer for Camilla to be known officially as HRH the Princess Consort, it shall not be the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination if she is not and as I have stated, I will surely accept it in good faith and will think of her no differently to any of her continental counterparts and nor should I.

Princess Consort is not the end of the world but I wonder what people can do with the titile of future King William's wife? Will they call her Princess Consort again? In my views, the titles of Kings' wives should be consitent.Even Camilla does not bear any Charles's child, she is his legal wife and that's why she should not only hold the legal title of Queen Consort but also have the right to use it when Charles is on the throne. Princess Consort does not change my view on Camilla because I have good faith in her. However using Princess Consort may cause more problems in the future and future historical criticism. I wish Clarence House has never said such a thing.