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  #81  
Old 09-12-2007, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
Yes, indeed it goes back to Henry 8th and his divorce to Catherine of Aragon which the Pope wouldn't recognize. Don't forget Catherine's parents were Ferdinand and Isabella, heavy hitters in the Catholic realm for the Pope. So that didn't sit well at all! Henry made himself head of the church and confiscated all the churchs lands for his own. He taxed them and took the wealth to fill his coffers because he was running into some expense entertaining lavishly at court. When Mary Tudor came to power, she turned the apple cart upside down and went back to Catholicism executing all those who didn't agree to re-convert. It wasn't for naught she was called "Bloody Mary". (And it's an awfully nice drink if made with horseradish and worchestershire) Elizabeth 1 went back to CoE. The people must have been mixed up and upset.
Well, long story short, marrying a Catholic DOES NOT make you Catholic. You have to be baptized and take communion, confession, etc. Mr. Russo's a Catholic and I'm a Jack Mormon. Go figure!
There is no way that the Royal Family wants to open that can of worms. If they reverse the law, what is to say that the current sitting Pope won't request all his lands and churches back that Henry took?? It could happen! Blacks are asking for reparations in America because their ancestors were brought here against their will.
Oh, what nonsense. The Pope isn't going to do that and the answer would be no. John Kennedy made it very clear that you could be a Catholic and not be dictated to by the Pope. This is the 21st century, not the 16th. The Pope has very little power. Influence in his own chuch, but only to some degree. Many American Catholics openly practice birth control and still go to church. The world has changed since Henry VIII.
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  #82  
Old 09-12-2007, 09:21 PM
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As long as we have an established church, the monarch has to be a member. If we don't, then I suppose the monarch could still be required by law to be CofE or Protestant or something, but I think that the fewer the number of people whose religious freedom is curtailed by requirements of state, the better.
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  #83  
Old 09-13-2007, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Oh, what nonsense. The Pope isn't going to do that and the answer would be no. John Kennedy made it very clear that you could be a Catholic and not be dictated to by the Pope. This is the 21st century, not the 16th. The Pope has very little power. Influence in his own chuch, but only to some degree. Many American Catholics openly practice birth control and still go to church. The world has changed since Henry VIII.
Yes, Countess, it IS the 21st century but guess what?? Mitt Romney is running for President and there are a LOT of scared people out there wondering what the Mormon church is going to do and/or how much influence they will have over Mitt. Again, go figure.
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  #84  
Old 09-13-2007, 12:58 PM
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Many are unsure because he is a Mormon, that doesn't mean the Pope will makes demands on a King of England. Many don't like Rommney because he seems to change he story and lie, so what he was for before, he is against now. But all of that is not the issue. The issue was, would a Pope make claims on an English Monarch if he married a Catholic. That was nonsense.
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  #85  
Old 09-13-2007, 01:10 PM
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My point is that you don't know. And if I were the CoE I would let things just lay there until you have a strong monarch in there who can bring some reforms.
Some things start small, then gather momentum and make sweeping changes.
You are in America. You have seen YouTube and the cry for reparations. Again, my point is: it could happen. You don't know.
(Well, unless you're Kreskin, and in that case, can I'd be divining the winning lottery numbers. . . . )
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  #86  
Old 09-13-2007, 01:26 PM
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The main issue with the Pope is power and influence. For example, the Pope decries abortion and countries with a Catholic monarch are expected to hold Catholic doctrine as the foundation for law. It's also the idea of the Pope holding power and influence over the English monarch. In Britain, the Church of England provides the basis for law (or did) and the monarch is answerable only to God (or parliament if you're not religious). It's a power and influence issue.
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  #87  
Old 09-13-2007, 02:51 PM
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I agree Beatrix, but before we get admonished we need to steer it back to no, the Duchess of Cornwall is NOT Catholic. A Catholic marriage does not make one Catholic.


(Okay, I'm doing it for brownie points. . . )
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  #88  
Old 09-14-2007, 01:25 PM
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exactly right...marrying a catholic doesn't make you a catholic. camilla would have had to convert and since she didn't do that she is not a roman catholic.
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  #89  
Old 09-14-2007, 02:35 PM
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The rift between England and the Roman Church goes way back before Henry VIII. Remember the story of Henry II and Thomas a Becket -- that was basically the conflict between nationalism and the concept of a universal Christian church (and who got to wring the last coins out of the merchants and peasants). Sorry to digress.

Although Camilla might have been married to a Catholic, she doesn't strike me as the sort to have secret religious thoughts -- and probably adheres to the religion of her parents.
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  #90  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:33 PM
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Slander

Itís not slander to say someone is of a particular religion, bad mouthing that religion is.

If she was married in the Catholic Church, even if she herself isnít Catholic, doesnít that marriage have to be annulled prior to any subsequent marriage?
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  #91  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:37 PM
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Only if she wanted to remarry again in the Catholic church, I think. Not sure on that.

Camilla has always been a member of the Church of England though.
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  #92  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:37 PM
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The fact that there was virtually no way that Prince Michael of Kent would ever be King, I’m sure, was a huge factor in his marriage. Plus only the 6 closest to the crown are looked at with so much scrutiny

I believe
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  #93  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:38 PM
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No the marriage doesn't have to be annulled - unless she wanted to marry again in a Roman Catholic ceremony.

As she was legally divorced and had a civil marriage there is no problem. She could even have married in the CoE had the Archbishop of Canterbury or some other minister believed she had no role in the breakdown of Charles and Diana's wedding (but that isn't a topic for discussion here) as she was legally divorced.

I have had many friends who married in the RC, were divorced and then wanted to remarry in a church and the RC wouldn't let them so they married in CoE or other Christian - and frequently converted as a result as well.
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  #94  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dlmagoo View Post
The fact that there was virtually no way that the Duke of Kent would ever be King, Iím sure, was a huge factor in his marriage. Plus only the 6 closest to the crown are looked at with so much scrutiny

I believe
The former law - which covered everyone - was very clear. It related to the religion of the spouse at the time of the marriage and Katherine was Anglican when she married and only converted later on. The Queen and the government sought legal advice on the status of the Duke of Kent at the time - due to security arrangements and his role as a regular representative of the Queen - something he couldn't do if he wasn't in the line of succession.

The change to the first six only took place in 2015 along with the change to birth order rather than male preference and the fact that the spouse's religion is not irrelevant - only the monarch must be a communicant member of the CoE now, for obvious reasons.
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  #95  
Old 12-22-2017, 10:44 PM
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Because Henry VIII formed the CofE in order to be able to divorce, since in the Catholic faith they would have needed the blessing of the Pope to divorce and have it annulled in the church
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  #96  
Old 12-22-2017, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Actually the Church of England is Catholic in the sense that 'Catholic' is a fundamental term in the Church of England Apostolic creed which summarises the beliefs of the church.

The words of the creed are 'I believe in a Catholic and Apostolic church'. I say this every Sunday at my local Church of England church and asked my minister the meaning in the lead up to my confirmation as a member of the Church of England. His response was very clear - the Church of England church is Catholic but not Roman Catholic - we don't acknowledge the Pope as Head of the Church but do acknowledge much of the same ideas.

Transubstantiation is the reason why the two churches can't come together but there are regular talks at very high levels (maybe not directly involving the Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury but certainly some of their staff - according to my minister and a very good friend of mine who is a bishop in the Church of England and has been to a couple of these meetings) about reuniting the two churches if an agreement can be made on transubstantiation. It is the only sticking point because both churches do have a 'Catholic and Apostolic' belief and structure.
Iím Presbyterian and we recently(say the last 15-20 years or so) have begun saying ďI believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.Ē

They use ďCatholicĒ as an umbrella term for what most of us believe
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  #97  
Old 12-22-2017, 11:09 PM
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If Camilla's former husband remarried in the Catholic Church (he is or at least was Catholic) then there has been a decree of nullity granted already.

If Parker-Bowles has remarried outside the Church then you can gather that no decree was granted at the time of his re-marriage, ergo in the eyes of the CC he (and Camilla) are living in a state of adultery UNLESS a decree was issued after a remarriage happened.


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  #98  
Old 12-22-2017, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The former law - which covered everyone - was very clear. It related to the religion of the spouse at the time of the marriage and Katherine was Anglican when she married and only converted later on. The Queen and the government sought legal advice on the status of the Duke of Kent at the time - due to security arrangements and his role as a regular representative of the Queen - something he couldn't do if he wasn't in the line of succession.

The change to the first six only took place in 2015 along with the change to birth order rather than male preference and the fact that the spouse's religion is not irrelevant - only the monarch must be a communicant member of the CoE now, for obvious reasons.

Ahhhh I see.
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  #99  
Old 12-22-2017, 11:13 PM
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Transubstantiation is the reason why the two churches can't come together but there are regular talks at very high levels

And there are other issues besides Transubstaniation that the CC and COE haven't come together. Quite a few of them.

I can't imagine someone at high levels would think this is the only issue.



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  #100  
Old 12-22-2017, 11:16 PM
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Very informative discussion y’all. ��
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