Did Charles have a relationship with Tiggy?

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

And, although, many have stated their opinions, there is absolutely no concrete evidence that they didn't. .

But don't you think that it's sad that there is a feeling to need concrete evidence that they didn't have an affair? After all, it's not as if Charles is notorious for his amount affairs. So where does the idea come from that only because some pics show him hugging a young lady while his soon-to-be ex-wife makes an accusation it's this young lady's job to defend her reputation (whih she tried to).

I just imagine her reading these forums and reading that because there is no concrete evidence that she was not a fling for the PoW she is considered by 33% of the voters to have been just that? If I was that person, I would want to walk away with a red face - and somehow I think this is exactly what Diana wanted!

It's the same as that old quote by Camilla and her great-grandmother - did she really say that? But even if she did not, after someone üublished this quote, she was forever cast in the position of a potential mistress without any regard for marriage, so after all those years she needed to marry the prince in order to loose that label.

While Diana managed to have all these affairs and still is regarded as lilywhite Lilly.

For me, this is sad.

[judith14011]

A quote from the Tina Brown book re:Tiggy at the end. It seems that there was some jealousy on Camilla's part over Tiggy. Another reference Ms. Brown made was that "Camilla's people" put pressure on the POW to maintain his relationship with her after the divorce. Camilla's late father, Major Bruce Shand was very public about Charles' obligation to publicly "clarify" his relationship with Camilla, who, rightly or wrongly (in my opinion rightly), took a lot of heat for the demise of the Wales' marriage.



But now in the year after her divorce, relations with Prince Charles were on a nicely even keel, starting with that tea in July. The arrival in 1996 of Mark Bolland as Charles’s assistant private secretary inaugurated an era of glasnost between the offices of the Princess and the Prince. Bolland was a shrewd go–to guy with a marketing background and a useful four years of experience as director of the Press Complaints Commission. He lived in the real world, not the Palace bubble. He owed his job to Camilla; he had come to Charles at the recommendation of her divorce lawyer, Hilary Browne Wilkinson. In spite of that—or more likely because of it—part of his writ was to end the War between the Waleses. It got in the way, he believed, of the necessary rebuilding of Prince Charles’s image. Bolland’s first act was to persuade Charles to fire his private secretary, Commander Richard Aylard, the facilitator of the Dimbleby fiasco, and rid the Prince’s office of holdovers from the bitter years of marital competition. Nor was Bolland a fan of the undislodgeable Tiggy Legge-Bourke, sharing Camilla’s belief that Tiggy spent a lot of her time “winding Charles up.” Another positive augury, surely

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

...there is absolutely no concrete evidence that they didn't. Charles knew how to do things discreetly, if he wanted to. He wasn't a fool. There, of course, is no concrete evidence that they did, either. As I said before, all supposition. No one can prove anything either way.

I am in full agreement with Countess. It is impossible to conclusively determine whether the relationship in question took place or not.

Originally Posted by cde

Personally I am on the fence for the following reasons- Camilla was known to be jealous of Tiggy. I think Camilla knows Charles pretty well and I don't think she would have been jealous without some good reason. Besides, I seriously doubt Charles having a fling with Tiggy would have jeopardized his relationship with Camilla. Camilla was used to Charles not being faithful before she and Charles married. Although IMO she doesn't any longer.

Originally Posted by judith14011

A quote from the Tina Brown book re:Tiggy at the end. It seems that there was some jealousy on Camilla's part over Tiggy. Another reference Ms. Brown made was that "Camilla's people" put pressure on the POW to maintain his relationship with her after the divorce. Camilla's late father, Major Bruce Shand was very public about Charles' obligation to publicly "clarify" his relationship with Camilla, who, rightly or wrongly (in my opinion rightly), took a lot of heat for the demise of the Wales' marriage.

But now in the year after her divorce, relations with Prince Charles were on a nicely even keel, starting with that tea in July. The arrival in 1996 of Mark Bolland as Charles’s assistant private secretary inaugurated an era of glasnost between the offices of the Princess and the Prince. Bolland was a shrewd go–to guy with a marketing background and a useful four years of experience as director of the Press Complaints Commission. He lived in the real world, not the Palace bubble. He owed his job to Camilla; he had come to Charles at the recommendation of her divorce lawyer, Hilary Browne Wilkinson. In spite of that—or more likely because of it—part of his writ was to end the War between the Waleses. It got in the way, he believed, of the necessary rebuilding of Prince Charles’s image. Bolland’s first act was to persuade Charles to fire his private secretary, Commander Richard Aylard, the facilitator of the Dimbleby fiasco, and rid the Prince’s office of holdovers from the bitter years of marital competition. Nor was Bolland a fan of the undislodgeable Tiggy Legge-Bourke, sharing Camilla’s belief that Tiggy spent a lot of her time “winding Charles up.” Another positive augury, surely

[my bolding]
The above is rather an interesting development "Duchess of Cornwall feared competition". I have found it shocking that Prince Charles disrespects women so much, even the love of his life. I am surprised that Mr. Bolland decided to get rid of Ms Legge-Bourke. Afterall, she was not a big fan of Princess Diana. It would be fair to assume that Duchess of Cornwall expressed a desire to get rid of everything and everybody "from the bitter years of marital competition"(judith14011, 2007) as she intended to rebuild the family nest for Prince Charles.

[love_cc]

Originally Posted by judith14011

But now in the year after her divorce, relations with Prince Charles were on a nicely even keel, starting with that tea in July. The arrival in 1996 of Mark Bolland as Charles’s assistant private secretary inaugurated an era of glasnost between the offices of the Princess and the Prince. Bolland was a shrewd go–to guy with a marketing background and a useful four years of experience as director of the Press Complaints Commission. He lived in the real world, not the Palace bubble. He owed his job to Camilla; he had come to Charles at the recommendation of her divorce lawyer, Hilary Browne Wilkinson. In spite of that—or more likely because of it—part of his writ was to end the War between the Waleses. It got in the way, he believed, of the necessary rebuilding of Prince Charles’s image. Bolland’s first act was to persuade Charles to fire his private secretary, Commander Richard Aylard, the facilitator of the Dimbleby fiasco, and rid the Prince’s office of holdovers from the bitter years of marital competition. Nor was Bolland a fan of the undislodgeable Tiggy Legge-Bourke, sharing Camilla’s belief that Tiggy spent a lot of her time “winding Charles up.” Another positive augury, surely

Sorry about the name of a book, in which the author quote from Mark Bolland about Prince Charles's faithfulness to Camilla, "Basically he is a one-woman man, but he married the wrong woman". Actually I doubt Prince Charles himself had special feeling for Tiggy but I would not surprised to learn that Tiggy used to have feelings for him.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by judith14011

A quote from the Tina Brown book re:Tiggy at the end. It seems that there was some jealousy on Camilla's part over Tiggy. Another reference Ms. Brown made was that "Camilla's people" put pressure on the POW to maintain his relationship with her after the divorce. Camilla's late father, Major Bruce Shand was very public about Charles' obligation to publicly "clarify" his relationship with Camilla, who, rightly or wrongly (in my opinion rightly), took a lot of heat for the demise of the Wales' marriage.

But now in the year after her divorce, relations with Prince Charles were on a nicely even keel, starting with that tea in July. The arrival in 1996 of Mark Bolland as Charles’s assistant private secretary inaugurated an era of glasnost between the offices of the Princess and the Prince. Bolland was a shrewd go–to guy with a marketing background and a useful four years of experience as director of the Press Complaints Commission. He lived in the real world, not the Palace bubble. He owed his job to Camilla; he had come to Charles at the recommendation of her divorce lawyer, Hilary Browne Wilkinson. In spite of that—or more likely because of it—part of his writ was to end the War between the Waleses. It got in the way, he believed, of the necessary rebuilding of Prince Charles’s image. Bolland’s first act was to persuade Charles to fire his private secretary, Commander Richard Aylard, the facilitator of the Dimbleby fiasco, and rid the Prince’s office of holdovers from the bitter years of marital competition. Nor was Bolland a fan of the undislodgeable Tiggy Legge-Bourke, sharing Camilla’s belief that Tiggy spent a lot of her time “winding Charles up.” Another positive augury, surely

Being the cynic that I am, I can't find anything in that piece apart from the authors opinion, even her statement about Major Shand is questionable and the 'Camilla's people putting pressure on Charles' is unlikely to say the least.

Apart from anything else, 'winding someone up', does not sound the sort of thing anyone other than an office manager would complain about. Winding someone up can consist of making statements in order to push someone to anger or retalitory steps OR as in many households, encouraging them to giggle, laugh and lark about. Certainly not to my mind, the sort of thing that would be said about a suspected mistress. I was also under the impression that Tiggy left under her own steam.

The photographs that have been offered up as 'evidence' are dated 1999, so it is interesting to read this - BBC News | Wales | Tiggy enjoys a right royal wedding

Charles has been known for years to give brooches, (especially the Prince of Wales feathers) to female friends (friend does not equal lover to me), so I don't think that the gift of a brooch to Tiggy, if it wasn't just in Diana's mind, would be significant.

[CasiraghiTrio]

I don't have any articles or books to back me up. Still, instinct tells me that the relationship of Charles and Tiggy was never so much as an "affair" per say, but more like a special friendship. The early-to-mid 90s were a terrible time for Camilla, her marriage reaching the end of divorce in 1995 (or thereabouts) and suffering as she did, tremendous public humiliation. I believe it is possible her relationship with Charles suffered a temporary strain as a result, and Charles perhaps sought a degree of comfort from Tiggy. If Tiggy was not exactly his lover, she was, I believe, of great comfort to him in what were arguably the most difficult years of his life.

[COUNTESS]

Pro and con are all subfused with conjecture, rumour and prejudice. It is a discussion that can not draw on any substantive proof either way, nor do I believe it ever will, nor does it change anything today.

[Skydragon]

The one thing everybody has missed, is that 'Tiggy' was romantically involved, at tha time, with the man she eventually married.
The couple have been linked romantically since summer 1998, but they have known each other for years and enjoyed a brief romance as teenagers

The wedding was October 16th, 1999.

Tina Brown's book offers no citation (from what I can see) for her opinion that Camilla called Tiggy 'the hired help' or that Camilla was jealous of her. Nor was she able to offer a source for the repeated rumour that Major Shand had words with Charles. It seems to be acceptable to just say 'a source' and suddenly it must be fact.

[ysbel]

I can't see Charles actually having an affair with Tiggy because she said she had a schoolgirl crush on him just like Diana when they first met and I can't imagine Charles wanting to get emotionally involved in another relationship that could end like Diana.

However, given the rancor of the War of the Waleses, I wouldn't put it past Charles to suggest that he had feelings for Tiggy just to make Diana angry. Warring couples do that sometimes. If Diana was jealous of Tiggy after the Panorama interview when the relationship between Diana and Charles was over in everything but on paper, its conceivable that Charles was annoyed with Diana and wanted to teach her a lesson. If Camilla was starting to act possessive too as all women do at some point or another with the men they love, Charles could have been annoyed by that too and flirting with Tiggy would kill two birds with one stone by making both women angry.

My only problem with this scenario was that the Queen came out in defence of Tiggy and I believe Her Majesty would not use her own credibility so lightly given what she most undoubtedly knew as the good side and bad side of both Charles and Diana by then. I think the Queen genuinely saw Tiggy as innocent in the matter and if she had suspected that Charles was playing games with Diana through his actions with Tiggy, I doubt if HM would have jumped so quickly to Tiggy's defence because if proven wrong, it could come back to look unfavorably on Charles.

[judith14011]

Major Bruce Shand - Comment - Times Online

see Major Shand's obit for comment above re: clarification of Camilla and the POW relationship.

In both Tina Brown's book and other royal sources, Camilla always referred to Tiggy as "the hired help" and was in fact, jealous of any attention the POW showed to Tiggy. In this way, both she and Diana shared a common feeling about Tiggy.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by judith14011

Major Bruce Shand - Comment - Times Online

see Major Shand's obit for comment above re: clarification of Camilla and the POW relationship.

In both Tina Brown's book and other royal sources, Camilla always referred to Tiggy as "the hired help" and was in fact, jealous of any attention the POW showed to Tiggy. In this way, both she and Diana shared a common feeling about Tiggy.

This is what this article says - "there was a story circulated that he eventually suggested to the heir to the throne that the situation required some clarification, as his daughter’s position was being compromised" - so as you can see, it is just a rumour that has been reinvented as a 'story circulated'. Circulated to who and by whom, Major Shand was ever discreet so I do find it hard to believe that if he had spoken to Charles he would have told anyone and as we know Charles would also never have spoken of it.

As I did not find Browns' book to be accurate on very many points and as we have never seen anything from Camilla on her feelings for Tiggy, is this not just another attempt by authors and journalists, to make Camilla into the wicked witch of the west?

[COUNTESS]

This whole discussion is just rumour and supposition. Just because, someone feels "this or that" still has no basis in fact. All just personal guesses. Since, no one here has ever discussed this with Charles, Diana, Camilla, Major Shand, Tiggy or anyone else really involved , it is a just a maybe yes, maybe no. Unconfirmed information is supposition.

[judith14011]

Major Bruce Shand - Telegraph

More on Major Shand's position on his daughter's relationship with the POW.

[georgiea]

Originally Posted by judith14011

Major Bruce Shand - Telegraph

More on Major Shand's position on his daughter's relationship with the POW.

From the above article: "But there were periodic rumours that Major Shand was becoming exasperated with the hostile publicity his daughter was receiving as the royal marriage drew to a close and after Diana Princess of Wales died. Some soldierly blunt words were said to have been offered to the Prince on several occasions before he married Camilla Parker Bowles in 2005, an event at which Shand was discreetly present."

What I pulled out of the article on Major Bruce Shand, shows me a father that cared and worried about what would happen to his divorced daughter. Major Shand in my opinion did not care the Prince Charles was going to be the next king of England, he just bluntly told Charles to take care of his daughter after all she has done for him. I really believe Charles had to be push into marrying Camilla. Not because he did not love her, but because of the monarchy situation.

This is my thought:Tiggy and Prince Charles might have had a relationship starting to develop and that is why Major Bruce Shand had to step in to help his divorced daughter, Camilla make a honest man of Charles.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by judith14011

Major Bruce Shand - Telegraph

More on Major Shand's position on his daughter's relationship with the POW.

Sorry Judith but again, it specifically says - Shand proved adept at sidestepping attempts to question him about his daughter's relationship with the Prince of Wales, and advised friends to keep their mouths shut. But there were periodic rumours that Major Shand was becoming exasperated with the hostile publicity his daughter was receiving as the royal marriage drew to a close and after Diana Princess of Wales died. Some soldierly blunt words were said to have been offered to the Prince on several occasions before he married Camilla.

It would be the same as some of the rumours that have been presented on here, being repeated as fact, (not that I think that is what you are trying to do. ). I suppose that is why I always ask for and try to link the source article, so that everyone can read it for themselves. Journalists do have a habit of printing their 'facts' as being from an unnamed source or 'rumours'. Without offering proof, I could come on here and say my name is Lady ?? and that I have met all the people concerned, but I am certain without offering proof, nobody would believe me and rightly so.

That is why I think it unlikely the rumours of Camilla calling Tiggy names are true, with Camilla, discretion is built in and she would not, IMO have called Tiggy the 'hired hand' within anybody's hearing.

[ysbel]

georgiea, forgive me for being dense, but what, may I ask does Major Shand's attitude about Charles and his daughter Camilla have to do with Charles' relationship with Tiggy?

[ysbel]

And I'm still waiting to hear what Major Shand's attitude towards Charles and his daughter have to do with Charles' relationship with Tiggy.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by ysbel

And I'm still waiting to hear what Major Shand's attitude towards Charles and his daughter have to do with Charles' relationship with Tiggy.

From my point...judith14011 quoted a piece from a book that mentioned Tiggy, which included a section on the allegation that Major Shand had to make Charles clarify his position. judith14011 kindly posted another article to show that the book was correct in it's statements. I highlighted that none of it was fact, just rumour.

[georgiea]

Originally Posted by ysbel

And I'm still waiting to hear what Major Shand's attitude towards Charles and his daughter have to do with Charles' relationship with Tiggy.

ysbel: See my earlier post, I added a line about what I think the relationship was. I hope we can express our thoughts on the matter.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by georgiea

ysbel: See my earlier post, I added a line about what I think the relationship was. I hope we can express our thoughts on the matter.

georgiea, humour me, I'm dense I didn't get it. Explain it one more time. Repeating things won't kill you, I promise you.