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  #21  
Old 11-10-2005, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Mary I
I suppose this is why they chose the 'manifolds sins' prayer for all to read out at their blessing service. I found the Archbishop asking if everyone-meaning C & C's friends in the congregation-if they would help C & C to be faithful rich indeed. They sure were no help to Diana in her lifetime.
Oh dear, we are going round in circles again. As explained ad nauseum in the C&C Wedding Thread the "manifold sins" prayer was not something special for C&C. It is included in a standard Church of England prayer. Never let the facts get in the way of sanctimonious stone-throwing.
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2005, 08:03 AM
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Marrying 'outside'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejonnhy25
The Scottish Queen and King George were a much better example. He was the first royal to marry outside the royal families of europe and marry a noble scotwomen.
Princess Louise, daughter of Queen Victoria, married in 1871 John Campbell, 9th Duke of Argyll, Marquess of Lorne.

Off topic, but to show how the Queen had her finger on the pulse of public opinion: Victoria wrote to the Prince of Wales (who opposed the marriage on social grounds) "Times have changed; great foreign alliances are looked upon as causes of trouble and anxiety, and are no good... Nothing is more unpopular here or more uncomfortable for me and everyone, than the long residence of our married daughters from abroad in my house, with the quantities of foreigners they bring with them..."

Source: Queen Victoria's Descendants by Marlene Eilers, 1997
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  #23  
Old 11-10-2005, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Princess Louise, daughter of Queen Victoria, married in 1871 John Campbell, 9th Duke of Argyll, Marquess of Lorne.

Off topic, but to show how the Queen had her finger on the pulse of public opinion: Victoria wrote to the Prince of Wales (who opposed the marriage on social grounds) "Times have changed; great foreign alliances are looked upon as causes of trouble and anxiety, and are no good... Nothing is more unpopular here or more uncomfortable for me and everyone, than the long residence of our married daughters from abroad in my house, with the quantities of foreigners they bring with them..."

Source: Queen Victoria's Descendants by Marlene Eilers, 1997
That shows a certain xenophobia in Victoria, don't you think, Warren? Maybe she was just reflecting what was felt in the country at the time but it still seems awfully prejudiced. And awfully unfair to the Princess Alexandra who had her own trials to deal with.
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  #24  
Old 11-10-2005, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
That shows a certain xenophobia in Victoria, don't you think, Warren? Maybe she was just reflecting what was felt in the country at the time but it still seems awfully prejudiced. And awfully unfair to the Princess Alexandra who had her own trials to deal with.
Well, she was initially quite willing to marry them off to the Germans, but perhaps she didn't expect their entire households to descend on Osborne and Balmoral? And we shouldn't forget that her husband was German. 1871: the year Prussia crushed Napoleon III and the Reich was proclaimed at Versailles. Maybe a connection?
.
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  #25  
Old 11-10-2005, 10:20 AM
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I think you have a point there Warren. Maybe Victoria was eyeing the Prussians a little less favorably by that time and for good cause.

Who was Victoria talking about when she said "the long residence of our married daughters from abroad in my house, with the quantities of foreigners they bring with them"?

The only one I can think of was Marie of Russia who definitely was a pest but Alexandra hardly brought a lot of Danes with her to descend on Victoria's house.

In fact, since Victoria wrote the letter to Bertie who was married to one of the "married daughters from abroad" I wonder what he thought of his mother's sentiments? I think it would have given him pause to think.
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2005, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I think you have a point there Warren. Maybe Victoria was eyeing the Prussians a little less favorably by that time and for good cause.

...
Victoria at first was very pro-German in the time of the Franco-Prussian war, writing, for example: 'How dreadful the state of Paris is! Surely that Sodom and Gomorrah as Papa called it deserves to be crushed.' The Queen changed her mind after the German annexation of Alsace-Lorraine.
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  #27  
Old 11-10-2005, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Mary I
I wouldn't want my sons to emulate a father who cheated on me throughout my marriage with another woman. Or to emulate the woman who interfered in a marriage. .
Are you refering to all the cheating Diana did? As we all know now, she took more than one lover. Many of Diana's lovers had partners or were married, how much heartbreak did she cause to those women and their children, how much interferring? None of them lasted, so it could hardly have been for love. Charles and Camilla have been in love for 35 years and finally deserve to be happy.
Would you be so vindictive towards Diana, if she was now mrs al Fayed? Would you still be baying for Camilla's blood?
As Diana admitted in her infamous 1995 interview, they lived separate lives from 1988. They were both having affairs as early as 1986 (1981 if Hewitt is to be believed), so there was no marriage in the true sense of the word.
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  #28  
Old 11-10-2005, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Oh dear, we are going round in circles again. As explained ad nauseum in the C&C Wedding Thread the "manifold sins" prayer was not something special for C&C. It is included in a standard Church of England prayer. Never let the facts get in the way of sanctimonious stone-throwing.
Well said Warren:)
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  #29  
Old 11-10-2005, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I think you have a point there Warren. Maybe Victoria was eyeing the Prussians a little less favorably by that time and for good cause.

Who was Victoria talking about when she said "the long residence of our married daughters from abroad in my house, with the quantities of foreigners they bring with them"?

The only one I can think of was Marie of Russia who definitely was a pest but Alexandra hardly brought a lot of Danes with her to descend on Victoria's house.

In fact, since Victoria wrote the letter to Bertie who was married to one of the "married daughters from abroad" I wonder what he thought of his mother's sentiments? I think it would have given him pause to think.

I never took this letter to refer to her daughters-in-law but to her own daughters, specifically Princess Alice who did spend a lot of time in England due to the relative poverty of her husband's family and Helena who had married the German prince of Schleswig-Holstein.

It certainly can't refer to Marie of Russia if the letter was written in 1871 as Alfred and Marie didn't marry until 1874.
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  #30  
Old 11-10-2005, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Thats true. Diana was having many affairs herself. So don't forget that. Blame doesn't lie solely with Charles or Camilla. It also lies with Diana, Hewitt, The Queen etc etc.
I never said Diana was a saint. She responded in the wrong way to a philandering husband and a mistress who did not respect the late Princess Of Wale's marriage even before it began. Diana should have sought a divorce right away or better yet an annulment (at least a civil annulment-I don't think those are possible in the C of E-like in the C of R).

My sister did the same thing as Diana in response to a cheating husband-which is one reason this is such a sore point for me. Adultery causes so much pain, and heartache for all involved. :( It is like my sister said about 'the other woman'. 'What did I ever do to her that she would do this to me? I didn't even know her'. The same could be said in regards to Diana and Camilla. Camilla threw the first punch in my estimation. Along with Charles. Diana did not know how to fight back. Her own parents had a horrible marriage record. :(
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  #31  
Old 11-10-2005, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
Are you refering to all the cheating Diana did? As we all know now, she took more than one lover. Many of Diana's lovers had partners or were married, how much heartbreak did she cause to those women and their children, how much interferring? None of them lasted, so it could hardly have been for love. Charles and Camilla have been in love for 35 years and finally deserve to be happy.
Would you be so vindictive towards Diana, if she was now mrs al Fayed? Would you still be baying for Camilla's blood?
As Diana admitted in her infamous 1995 interview, they lived separate lives from 1988. They were both having affairs as early as 1986 (1981 if Hewitt is to be believed), so there was no marriage in the true sense of the word.
Adultery is adultery. Taking one lover doesn't make you better than the person who has more than one. The commandments on thou shalt not commit adutery and thou shalt not covet another man's wife make no distinction between one extra-marital affair or many. And I only mention this because the Archbishop of Canterbury called Prince Charles a 'confirmed Anglican' when the wedding was announced, and I notice Charles and Camilla seemed to attend church while living together. Just from a Christian standpoint they sinned no more, and no less than Diana.

And I have never seen or heard any confirmation that Diana had affairs with married men. I have only read about them in books.
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  #32  
Old 11-11-2005, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Mary I
I never said Diana was a saint. She responded in the wrong way to a philandering husband and a mistress who did not respect the late Princess Of Wale's marriage even before it began. Diana should have sought a divorce right away or better yet an annulment (at least a civil annulment-I don't think those are possible in the C of E-like in the C of R).

My sister did the same thing as Diana in response to a cheating husband-which is one reason this is such a sore point for me. Adultery causes so much pain, and heartache for all involved. :( It is like my sister said about 'the other woman'. 'What did I ever do to her that she would do this to me? I didn't even know her'. The same could be said in regards to Diana and Camilla. Camilla threw the first punch in my estimation. Along with Charles. Diana did not know how to fight back. Her own parents had a horrible marriage record. :(
Hi Queen Mary I,

I had wondered where you had gone to. :) Glad to see you back. Now I can understand a little since this happened to your sister. I hope she was able to overcome the hurt and build her life again. If its any consolation (and maybe its not) but I think the hurt that your sister felt came from her husband and not the other woman. Sadly, if a man is willing to have an affair that is strong enough to break up his marriage, he will eventually find someone who will go along with him.

I've seen marriages fall all around me due to adultery and other things. Its not a good time to be living in if you want to be happily married and I keep my fingers crossed.

I think there are two types of affairs; affairs that appear when the marriage is going strong and wreak it and then there are affairs when the marriage is troubled and you reach out to someone else. The affairs in Charles and Diana's case were the latter type, in my opinion.

The marriage was already in trouble before William was born and I don't think it was because Charles had Camilla already in his pocket. I don't think he did. Diana had tremendous trouble in her first year of marriage; the publicity, getting pregnant at 20 and suffering post-partum depression bringing on the eating disorder that she had suffered as a teenager and being married to a family who didn't know what to do when she went into her crying fits. Charles did ask his friends what to do about Diana and IMHO when he asked Camilla he was asking for trouble because they had had a relationship in the past.

Was it a mistake? Yes, it was. And you are right, Charles and Diana should have gotten a divorce in the beginning; then they would have been able to put their lives together much sooner. However, I think the protocol in the Royal Family worked against them; disastrously for their own personal happiness.
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  #33  
Old 11-11-2005, 12:28 AM
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I still blame Prince Philip in some of this. I wish there were times the Queen would have put him in his place like Victoria did to Albert.

If he would have let his children make their own decisions...and I am talking about the period in the late 1970's, maybe Charles would have been happily married to someone else..not Camilla or Diana...just married..quiet and happy..
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  #34  
Old 11-11-2005, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
I still blame Prince Philip in some of this. I wish there were times the Queen would have put him in his place like Victoria did to Albert.
Well Lady Marmalade, Prince Albert died before his children got married; at least all but one. Prince Philip did his fair share of pushing but then so did a lot of other people. Charles was raised from a child not to make waves; it took him awhile to throw off the conditioning. Some waves are worth making. And I don't mean running off with another woman.
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  #35  
Old 11-11-2005, 12:56 AM
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Gyles Brandreth was interviewed in Majesty Magazine about his latest book, which is about Charles and Camilla, and he lays the blame for Charles's unrealistic expectations at the door of the Queen Mother, who he said spoiled Charles rotten and gave him the idea that he could live like an Edwardian prince rather than a modern one. The Queen Mother didn't seem averse to the idea of mistresses (at least for other princes) since she was apparently friendly with Lady Furness during her relationship with the Prince of Wales; she seemed to think that adultery was OK as long as people were discreet about it. Between that message and the stuff Charles was getting from Mountbatten - the two people whose opinions he valued more than anyone's during his formative years - it's no wonder that he's stuck uncomfortably between the present and the past.
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  #36  
Old 11-11-2005, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
The Queen Mother didn't seem averse to the idea of mistresses (at least for other princes) ...; she seemed to think that adultery was OK as long as people were discreet about it. Between that message and the stuff Charles was getting from Mountbatten - the two people whose opinions he valued more than anyone's during his formative years - it's no wonder that he's stuck uncomfortably between the present and the past.
Perhaps this will be Camilla's greatest legacy: in a few years time people may be commenting how she has brought Charles more into "the real world". Having her by his side will give him less need for introspection, and a lot more confidence. Just see how happy and relaxed he appeared during the US Tour with Camilla there to share the experience. She will certainly have an effect and it will be interesting to chart the changes Camilla influences in the demeanour, outlook and confidence of the Prince of Wales.
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  #37  
Old 11-11-2005, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Mary I
And I have never seen or heard any confirmation that Diana had affairs with married men. I have only read about them in books.
Barry Manakee, Philip Dunne, Oliver Hoare, Will Carling were I believe married, James Gilbey's fiance killed herself shortly after the affair broke the news and Nigel Havers said Diana made a play for him knowing that his wife was dying. Are they all to be disbelieved because they are not Diana?
Are you saying that it's ok to set out to steal someone's partner if they are not married?
It is sad when any long term relationship breaks up, what is sadder still, is that everyone takes sides, possibly without knowing all the facts and taking everyone concerned into consideration. You can't make one person love another as should be evident from the Charles/Diana debacle.
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  #38  
Old 11-11-2005, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Mary I
. And I only mention this because the Archbishop of Canterbury called Prince Charles a 'confirmed Anglican' when the wedding was announced, .
You can be confirmed into the anglican church from 11 years old I believe, it is simply a ceremony. Many people are confirmed and change their minds when they grow up.:) Some churchgoers have never been confirmed or christened.
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  #39  
Old 11-11-2005, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Mary I
And I have never seen or heard any confirmation that Diana had affairs with married men. I have only read about them in books.
Diana's affair with Oliver Hoare is on public record as it came to light as a result of a police investigation. Oliver Hoare's wife contacted the police as they were receiving anonymous phone calls, the police traced the calls and embarrassingly for Diana they were traced back to her. Oliver Hoare had ended his affair with Diana and she harassed him with telephone calls. When his wife answered the phone she would hang up.
Julia Carling (Will Carling's 1st wife) has also said somewhere that his affair with Diana was the cause of their marriage breakup.

James Gibney ( he of the 'squiggygate phone tapes) was involved in a live in relationship when he had his affair with Diana. His girlfriend had quite a fragile personality and couldn't cope with his infactuation with Diana, they broke up and a while later she committed suicide.
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  #40  
Old 11-11-2005, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Mary I
... a mistress who did not respect the late Princess Of Wale's marriage even before it began.(
I'm not sure this is true. Camilla told Diana that she had an agreement with Charles not to contact him after the wedding. There is no evidence I know of that she did.

Quote:
Diana should have sought a divorce right away or better yet an annulment .
Diana should have turned down Charles' proposal of marriage since she knew about Camilla before the proposal. She went into the marriage with her eyes open. But she may have believed Charles when he told her he would be faithful in the marriage, or she may have thought she could "see off" Camilla. In any event, she was too caught up in her Princess fantasy to give it up, IMO.

I'm sorry about your sister, but the cases are not alike-- Diana had serious mental health problems, and IMO, Camilla had little to do with the failure of the marriage. By the time Charles went back to Camilla, the marriage was over in all but name.
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