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  #181  
Old 07-14-2005, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Then Alexandria, what is good for the goose is good for the gander here. Charles didn't have much respect for his marriage either, did he??? No matter how much all of you Charles' supporters try to clean him up, he has mud on his face that will never be wiped clean. Camilla wears that mud too.
tiaraprin, I never said that Charles and Camilla were innocent in all this or absolved of any responsibility or not at fault. I am not trying to clean him or Camilla up. I have no personal reason to as I liked Diana but I also like Camilla -- yes it is possible to like both women.

I simply pointed out that I think an affair is an affair is an affair and that no matter how you slice it or try to clean it up, there are no excuses for Diana's affairs. That she had them after Charles took up with Camilla again does not make her affair excusable or okay. She cheated during her marriage to Charles, period. She's as guilty as him of adultery and there are no explanations or reasons that justify her affair over his affair.
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  #182  
Old 07-14-2005, 03:19 PM
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Hang on! Why are we merley discussing Camilla, Charles & Diana? Camilla was also cheating on her own husband. The father of her two children. Even if Charles had remained single he was still doing wrong in sleeping with another man's wife. Camilla also seemed to think nothing about having sex with Charles under these circimstances.

I can't help but shake my head at all this. Why didn't he and Camilla go off to live the simple life in the country? Her being called "Highness" and pulled along in carraiges is totally absurd. How on Earth can any of us respect this pair? Most people in the same situation would be ashamed but there seems to be no shaming them at all.
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  #183  
Old 07-14-2005, 03:33 PM
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OH, I don't know if it was cheating; I think she and TPB had an open relationship.
  #184  
Old 07-14-2005, 03:50 PM
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of course they are a bit ashamed for what happened in the past but I do not know on which rarerified planet some of the members of this website live on, they sound either very young or extremely lucky so far and quite judgemental.
I know that there are people on this world who are not only unfaithfull with people that they do not really love but they do not really love the person they are married to either.

As far as I know we all have something which we could have done better and if you can not respect someone with faults, like charles and camilla, you can not respect anyone, including yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james
Hang on! Why are we merley discussing Camilla, Charles & Diana? Camilla was also cheating on her own husband. The father of her two children. Even if Charles had remained single he was still doing wrong in sleeping with another man's wife. Camilla also seemed to think nothing about having sex with Charles under these circimstances.

I can't help but shake my head at all this. Why didn't he and Camilla go off to live the simple life in the country? Her being called "Highness" and pulled along in carraiges is totally absurd. How on Earth can any of us respect this pair? Most people in the same situation would be ashamed but there seems to be no shaming them at all.
  #185  
Old 07-14-2005, 11:06 PM
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An of course didn't Camilla's husband cheat on her?
What is this world coming to?
  #186  
Old 07-14-2005, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james
Hang on! Why are we merley discussing Camilla, Charles & Diana? Camilla was also cheating on her own husband. The father of her two children. Even if Charles had remained single he was still doing wrong in sleeping with another man's wife. Camilla also seemed to think nothing about having sex with Charles under these circimstances.

I can't help but shake my head at all this. Why didn't he and Camilla go off to live the simple life in the country? Her being called "Highness" and pulled along in carraiges is totally absurd. How on Earth can any of us respect this pair? Most people in the same situation would be ashamed but there seems to be no shaming them at all.
AMEN TO THAT!!!! While Diana did commit adultery, she was not going to be Queen of England even before her tragic demise. Charles will be King if it the unfortunate happens and Her Majesty does not outlive him. Camilla, at the very least, will be Princess Consort, or if Charles gets his way, Queen. It is all too disturbing.

Camilla and her husband did have an "open marriage". He even attended the blessing of Charles' and Camilla's civil union with his new wife. The aristocracy sure has some strange values!
  #187  
Old 07-14-2005, 11:57 PM
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Morality

Quote:
Originally Posted by susan alicia
of course they are a bit ashamed for what happened in the past but I do not know on which rarerified planet some of the members of this website live on, they sound either very young or extremely lucky so far and quite judgemental.
I know that there are people on this world who are not only unfaithfull with people that they do not really love but they do not really love the person they are married to either.

As far as I know we all have something which we could have done better and if you can not respect someone with faults, like charles and camilla, you can not respect anyone, including yourself.
Uh Susan, I was taught the basic rules of MORALITY. While I am certainly not overtly religious or pious, I was taught by my parents what was right and wrong. I would not settle for a sham of a marriage and Diana was right to put her foot down!! I have not married someone to only commit adultery when things have gone bad. I have more of a sense of right and wrong than that. If things went bad, there would be a divorce if the marriage was not able to be saved. Just some basic common sense.

It is true they were all wrong in an impossible position, but they let themselves be dragged into it--even poor Diana. I wished she had listened to her instincts instead of the the aristocratic value of marrying up. She would have had a much better chance at happiness. AND if Charles had had a backbone, he wouldn't have wilted and married just because Daddy said so.
  #188  
Old 07-15-2005, 01:38 AM
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I thought if the affair of Charles & Camilla when Diana was in the mid of 30 of ages, I thought Diana would excuse it, since Diana would be mature enough, no justify her affair over his affair (as Alexandria said). But the adultery was shadowing almost entire Charles & Diana marriage, what would we expect from 20 y old lady. Since indeed Charles tend to do it.
  #189  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Uh Susan, I was taught the basic rules of MORALITY. While I am certainly not overtly religious or pious, I was taught by my parents what was right and wrong. I would not settle for a sham of a marriage and Diana was right to put her foot down!!
You may not settle for a sham of a marriage, but it's the way things were done in the British upper classes for a very long time. It was recognised that marriages took place for reasons other than the feelings of the two people involved, so if either or both of them wanted to indulge their feelings after having done their duty and married and produced heirs, a blind eye was turned as long as they were discreet.

Unfortunately for Charles and Diana, they were living at a time when things were changing: nowadays the heir to the throne isn't constrained like Charles was into marrying someone considered "suitable." Even though his marriage wasn't an arranged marriage in the traditional sense, he wasn't going to be allowed to marry just anyone he took a fancy to. If Prince William were doing his courting back then, I don't think Kate Middleton would be a likely prospect, not being the daughter of some duke or earl or whatever. Charles was mindful that he had to marry someone suitable, and Diana was much more free to dream of a love match. It really was a most hideous misunderstanding from the very start.


Quote:
It is true they were all wrong in an impossible position, but they let themselves be dragged into it--even poor Diana. I wished she had listened to her instincts instead of the the aristocratic value of marrying up. She would have had a much better chance at happiness. AND if Charles had had a backbone, he wouldn't have wilted and married just because Daddy said so.
Who knows what her instincts were? She was probably too young to know her mind clearly; the tragedy is that her family weren't there for her when she needed them, they seemed too keen to push her at the royal family (even though her grandmother claimed years later that she'd warned Diana against marrying Charles).
  #190  
Old 07-15-2005, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
You may not settle for a sham of a marriage, but it's the way things were done in the British upper classes for a very long time. It was recognised that marriages took place for reasons other than the feelings of the two people involved, so if either or both of them wanted to indulge their feelings after having done their duty and married and produced heirs, a blind eye was turned as long as they were discreet.

Unfortunately for Charles and Diana, they were living at a time when things were changing: nowadays the heir to the throne isn't constrained like Charles was into marrying someone considered "suitable." Even though his marriage wasn't an arranged marriage in the traditional sense, he wasn't going to be allowed to marry just anyone he took a fancy to. If Prince William were doing his courting back then, I don't think Kate Middleton would be a likely prospect, not being the daughter of some duke or earl or whatever. Charles was mindful that he had to marry someone suitable, and Diana was much more free to dream of a love match. It really was a most hideous misunderstanding from the very start.




Who knows what her instincts were? She was probably too young to know her mind clearly; the tragedy is that her family weren't there for her when she needed them, they seemed too keen to push her at the royal family (even though her grandmother claimed years later that she'd warned Diana against marrying Charles).

I am quite aware of this Elspeth through my extensive reading and researching of the British Royals. However, when Charles and Diana married in 1981, we were at the end of the 20th Century and a millenium and one would think this type of carrying on would have greatly diminished.

Only being an "American Commoner", different values are taught here--not that all heed them. I heed them.

Yes, Diana was too young to know her mind and her family was not there for her. I truly believe she was a sacrificial lamb. By the time she realized what she had done, it was too late and she didn't have the strength to fight a moral value and a centuries old institution immediately. She did find the courage though and showed the world that this type of behavior should not be condoned by any spouse female or male for that matter. Yes, Diana "dirties" her reputation with other men and I wish she hadn't, but dealing with what she had on her plate, God only knows what anyone would do. She should not be condemned then by this "moral value" of finding comfort elsewhere if one is not going to condemn Charles. Diana tried to fight for right. Charles surely didn't, he just wanted his way.
  #191  
Old 07-15-2005, 08:22 AM
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As Prince Charles could go strangely during its marriage with Princess Diana why princess Diana could not strangely go? She got of him no love then is that nevertheless normal that she will fiend it somewhere else or can Charles everything and Diana nothing, simply because he ever king would become!
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  #192  
Old 07-15-2005, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
I am quite aware of this Elspeth through my extensive reading and researching of the British Royals. However, when Charles and Diana married in 1981, we were at the end of the 20th Century and a millenium and one would think this type of carrying on would have greatly diminished.
I think it finally has, but Charles was caught on the dying edge of it, and hence at least some of the problems.

It remains to be seen how royalty will develop as the senior royals in the various monarchies choose spouses from the ranks of the rest of us. There ought to be a lot less excuse for unhappy marriages, though.
  #193  
Old 07-15-2005, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I think it finally has, but Charles was caught on the dying edge of it, and hence at least some of the problems.

It remains to be seen how royalty will develop as the senior royals in the various monarchies choose spouses from the ranks of the rest of us. There ought to be a lot less excuse for unhappy marriages, though.
Wouldn't it be great Elspeth?? I know there will always be problems, but hopefully there will be more loving, happy marriages.
  #194  
Old 07-16-2005, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Uh Susan, I was taught the basic rules of MORALITY. While I am certainly not overtly religious or pious, I was taught by my parents what was right and wrong. I would not settle for a sham of a marriage and Diana was right to put her foot down!! I have not married someone to only commit adultery when things have gone bad. I have more of a sense of right and wrong than that. If things went bad, there would be a divorce if the marriage was not able to be saved. Just some basic common sense.

It is true they were all wrong in an impossible position, but they let themselves be dragged into it--even poor Diana. I wished she had listened to her instincts instead of the the aristocratic value of marrying up. She would have had a much better chance at happiness. AND if Charles had had a backbone, he wouldn't have wilted and married just because Daddy said so.
Right! And in Diana's childhood home didn't her father put his foot down eventually to his and his wife's sham of a marraige???
In my opinion Diana was only doing what she had be taught from home!!!
  #195  
Old 07-18-2005, 10:42 AM
una una is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
BUT the majority of the evidence shows Diana did not start her affair with James Hewitt UNTIL Charles went back to Camilla. At least she wasn't the first adulterous one.
Aren't you forgetting Barry Mannakee, who pre-dated James Hewitt? I'm not sure anyone knows who jumped first, they both seem to have begun affairs around the same time. And wasn't this for the best in the circumstances? They could keep the form of the marriage going (for the children, their duty?) without continually tearing each other apart.
  #196  
Old 07-18-2005, 11:46 AM
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The idea that she'd had an affair with Barry Manakee, as opposed to just a rather dependent sort of friendship, is by no means a set-in-rock fact, just like the claims of when Charles went back to Camilla. The interpretations always seem to depend on the opinions of people about Charles and Diana, and whether they want to make them look good or not.

Lashinka, I thought it was Diana's mother who'd walked out on the family to go and live with Peter Shand Kydd and that Earl Spencer was surprised that Frances was even unhappy?
  #197  
Old 07-19-2005, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by una
Aren't you forgetting Barry Mannakee, who pre-dated James Hewitt? I'm not sure anyone knows who jumped first, they both seem to have begun affairs around the same time. And wasn't this for the best in the circumstances? They could keep the form of the marriage going (for the children, their duty?) without continually tearing each other apart.
There is no conclusive evidence that Diana had a sexual affair with Manakee. No writer, whether pro or anti Diana has proved this.

They were very close, but he was more like a father than a lover to Diana. He was the one the Princess turned to for emotional support when the marriage was sinking fast. It was just like those early days in Buckingham Palace before her marriage when she turned to the footman and kitchen staff to talk to and have some kind of rapport with in the lonely days of being ignored.
  #198  
Old 07-19-2005, 11:13 AM
una una is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
There is no conclusive evidence that Diana had a sexual affair with Manakee. No writer, whether pro or anti Diana has proved this.

They were very close, but he was more like a father than a lover to Diana.
Yes, it's not clear whether there was a sexual affair, only that Diana " fell deeply in love" (her words) with him, and there was no proof one way or the other.

Diana said that Charles thought that she and Mannakee were having an affair, so this might have influenced his view of the marriage as irretrievable broken down. It would be ironic if Charles went back to Camilla in the belief that Diana had been the first to leave the marriage, if, in fact, she hadn't!
  #199  
Old 08-02-2005, 09:02 PM
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Moonlightrhapsody I am glad you have said what you have said as I have previously thought I have been going mad on this thread.

For the final time, it dosn't matter what came to pass AFTER Charles and Diana married. When the Groom is winking at one of his lady friends in the Church he is getting married in (as Charles was caught on camera doing to Camilla) it doasn't bode well for a marraige.
  #200  
Old 08-02-2005, 10:49 PM
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I think what a lot of people don't realize is what effects Diana's emotional problems could have had on Charles. She had an eating disorder and these symptoms come much earlier than the age of 19 or 20 when Diana first married. She may have been suicidal if her fall down the stairs when pregnant with William was not a stunt. Even if Charles had committed adultery with Camilla on day one it is not a normal human reaction to throw yourself down the stairs while pregnant with your first child.

I've known some families where the women have eating disorders and they don't handle it well. The families of the women can't deal with it and the families that they marry into are even less prepared to deal with it. The same goes for families that have a tendency for suicide. There's a revulsion towards the person for doing such strange and upsetting things and then there's a tremendous guilt for feeling the revulsion. I've known marriages to break up because the man felt totally helpless in the face of what seems like an unfathomable situation that they have no control over. And these families are not even royal with the centuries old baggage that comes with being a royal.

If all the statements about Charles being weak-willed and indecisive are true, then he definitely couldn't handle a wife who was either bulimic or suicidal or both. And these traits just don't pop up because you find out your husband had an affair. They may get worse but they just don't appear.

What happened with Charles, Camilla and Diana we'll never know for sure. But if his previous relationships are any indicator, women moved from friend to girlfriend back to friend quite easily. Its as if there wasn't much of a difference for him between being in love and having a really good chum to hang around with. Maybe being in love for him WAS just having a good chum to hang around with. I think he and Camilla are more chummy than they look romantically in love.

Just speculation but its quite possible he saw no conflict with his friendship with Camilla and a marriage to Diana. But if so, it would have been a dangerous combination. For a man where women move from chum to girlfriend and back again so easily, having a wife with hard to understand emotional problems and a chum with whom he could confide in about his marriage troubles, made the friendship very vulnerable to turning into an affair.

The affair was still wrong and one wishes he or Diana would have stood up to the sham and called it quits a little sooner than they did. But neither of them I believe was strong enough.

Judging Charles for not being able to handle Diana's problems and turning to Camilla I think is just as unrealistic as judging Diana for throwing herself down the stairs. Its all just sad.
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