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  #181  
Old 07-19-2005, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
There is no conclusive evidence that Diana had a sexual affair with Manakee. No writer, whether pro or anti Diana has proved this.

They were very close, but he was more like a father than a lover to Diana.
Yes, it's not clear whether there was a sexual affair, only that Diana " fell deeply in love" (her words) with him, and there was no proof one way or the other.

Diana said that Charles thought that she and Mannakee were having an affair, so this might have influenced his view of the marriage as irretrievable broken down. It would be ironic if Charles went back to Camilla in the belief that Diana had been the first to leave the marriage, if, in fact, she hadn't!
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  #182  
Old 08-02-2005, 10:02 PM
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Moonlightrhapsody I am glad you have said what you have said as I have previously thought I have been going mad on this thread.

For the final time, it dosn't matter what came to pass AFTER Charles and Diana married. When the Groom is winking at one of his lady friends in the Church he is getting married in (as Charles was caught on camera doing to Camilla) it doasn't bode well for a marraige.
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  #183  
Old 08-02-2005, 11:49 PM
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I think what a lot of people don't realize is what effects Diana's emotional problems could have had on Charles. She had an eating disorder and these symptoms come much earlier than the age of 19 or 20 when Diana first married. She may have been suicidal if her fall down the stairs when pregnant with William was not a stunt. Even if Charles had committed adultery with Camilla on day one it is not a normal human reaction to throw yourself down the stairs while pregnant with your first child.

I've known some families where the women have eating disorders and they don't handle it well. The families of the women can't deal with it and the families that they marry into are even less prepared to deal with it. The same goes for families that have a tendency for suicide. There's a revulsion towards the person for doing such strange and upsetting things and then there's a tremendous guilt for feeling the revulsion. I've known marriages to break up because the man felt totally helpless in the face of what seems like an unfathomable situation that they have no control over. And these families are not even royal with the centuries old baggage that comes with being a royal.

If all the statements about Charles being weak-willed and indecisive are true, then he definitely couldn't handle a wife who was either bulimic or suicidal or both. And these traits just don't pop up because you find out your husband had an affair. They may get worse but they just don't appear.

What happened with Charles, Camilla and Diana we'll never know for sure. But if his previous relationships are any indicator, women moved from friend to girlfriend back to friend quite easily. Its as if there wasn't much of a difference for him between being in love and having a really good chum to hang around with. Maybe being in love for him WAS just having a good chum to hang around with. I think he and Camilla are more chummy than they look romantically in love.

Just speculation but its quite possible he saw no conflict with his friendship with Camilla and a marriage to Diana. But if so, it would have been a dangerous combination. For a man where women move from chum to girlfriend and back again so easily, having a wife with hard to understand emotional problems and a chum with whom he could confide in about his marriage troubles, made the friendship very vulnerable to turning into an affair.

The affair was still wrong and one wishes he or Diana would have stood up to the sham and called it quits a little sooner than they did. But neither of them I believe was strong enough.

Judging Charles for not being able to handle Diana's problems and turning to Camilla I think is just as unrealistic as judging Diana for throwing herself down the stairs. Its all just sad.
  #184  
Old 08-02-2005, 11:53 PM
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The reason why Diana became bulimic was b/c Charles said that she was a bit chubby. THanks to her insecurity she tried to lose way, but in an unsafe way.
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  #185  
Old 08-03-2005, 12:19 AM
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Hi Reina,

Sadly eating disorders doesn't work that way. They manifest themselves in the early years of puberty when girls bodies change although it may not be noticeable to others yet.

Charles may have said she was a bit chubby which would have been a bit insensitive and made it worse but this in itself would not have caused the bulimia.
  #186  
Old 08-03-2005, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
The reason why Diana became bulimic was b/c Charles said that she was a bit chubby. THanks to her insecurity she tried to lose way, but in an unsafe way.
There's some evidence that her eating disorders started some time before she ever met Charles. It depends whose story you believe. She isn't the only one in the family to have the problem either.
  #187  
Old 08-03-2005, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
There's some evidence that her eating disorders started some time before she ever met Charles. It depends whose story you believe. She isn't the only one in the family to have the problem either.
Please elaborate...
I've never heard of any evidence of the beginings of Diana's eating disorders before Charles' comments and the pressure of the harsh spotlight.
  #188  
Old 08-03-2005, 01:59 AM
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Hi Elspeth and lashinka :)

lashinka I don't have any personal knowledge that Diana had an eating disorder before meeting Charles. I simply have an understanding of the disorders after being in close contact with women who had it and their families.

Its a major misconception that one event or a single period of stress brings on an eating disorder and this misconception has caused a lot of pain and anguish for both those who suffer from the disorder and also to their families.

Anorexia and bulimia are both an attempt to gain control and the signs first appear in puberty when girls' bodies change and a sense of not being in control of your body develops. All girls go through feeling a lack of control during puberty but most get through the phase without an eating disorder. Its possible for girls to display symptoms of both bulimia and anorexia but one behavior usually dominates.

When Diana was pregnant with William it was thought she was anorexic but with her bulimia was the primary disorder. Eating disorders usually appear in the 'good' girl of the family. They put a lot of pressure on themselves to be good and dutiful. From the accounts of Diana's childhood, she was the good girl of the family and her kindness and dutifulness were admired by the Royal Family.

For Diana to show signs of anorexia and then develop bulimia so soon after her marriage, makes it highly unlikely (although I guess not impossible) for it to have developed only after she met Charles and been put under the pressures of worldwide fame. I guess it can happen but that's generally not how these disorders work.

The point I wanted to make was that the effect on her family - both her own family and the Royal Family cannot be underestimated. Its very frightening to see this up close and people don't know how to cope. From the outside it looks like they're acting incredibly insensitive but its very hard to imagine what its like being in the situation.
  #189  
Old 08-03-2005, 02:19 AM
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Right, so negative weight comments and the pressure of new found fame could have been the final thing to push her over the edge. Issues before she met Charles within her own family and friends that she may not have been able to control may have contributed to the final outcome.

The BRF & the Spencer famalies should have both educated themselves in this matter. Sure it's a hard thing to deal with, a hard thing to watch a loved one go through but if a family member had cancer or another sickness surley they would have done the best that they could have. In my opinion I don't think that they did very much for Diana's disorder. I don't think that they took it seriously. She really needed help, strangers off the streets would have given her more help.

This may be a little outspoken but I feel you always help the ones you love & Charles really did not love Diana. The Spencer side may not have been fully aware of Diana's bulimia. Had Camilla been ill Charles would have stepped up to the plate & made sure of her recovery.
  #190  
Old 08-03-2005, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lashinka2002
Right, so negative weight comments and the pressure of new found fame could have been the final thing to push her over the edge. Issues before she met Charles within her own family and friends that she may not have been able to control may have contributed to the final outcome.

The BRF & the Spencer famalies should have both educated themselves in this matter. Sure it's a hard thing to deal with, a hard thing to watch a loved one go through but if a family member had cancer or another sickness surley they would have done the best that they could have. In my opinion I don't think that they did very much for Diana's disorder. I don't think that they took it seriously. She really needed help, strangers off the streets would have given her more help.

This may be a little outspoken but I feel you always help the ones you love & Charles really did not love Diana. The Spencer side may not have been fully aware of Diana's bulimia. Had Camilla been ill Charles would have stepped up to the plate & made sure of her recovery.

I do believe Diana had some trouble with eating disorders before meeting Charles. Her sister Sarah was an anorexic and Charles actually helped her in her recovery. Too bad he couldn't help his own wife!!

I believe upon becoming engaged to him and being left alone to wander Buckingham Palace is when it went full force. She was a shy, inexperienced girl who was being ignored by all, including Charles. Bulimia was her way of gaining control in her life--eating disorders are usually caused by this issue. The world of the anorexic/bulimic is spinning out of control and she cannot stop it. So what does she do?? She gains control over the one thing she can--her weight. That is where a sufferer feels like they have power over what happens in their life.

I do not doubt if Camilla was suffering from this, Charles would have been frantic getting her help. For Diana, he read one book and called in Sir Laurens Van Der Post. Yeah, that was really going to help the situation.
  #191  
Old 08-03-2005, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
For Diana, he read one book and called in Sir Laurens Van Der Post. Yeah, that was really going to help the situation.
We have no knowledge of what medical assistance was requested; we have no idea of what was discussed with the physicians and specialists who attend members of the Royal Family. As far as I know none of these doctors and specialists have published their memoirs giving details of their Royal patients, nor sold tidbits to the tabloids.

We will probably never know what assistance and treatment was offered and given to Diana in relation to her physical and emotional difficulties. As much as we would like to know all the details, not everyone tells.
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  #192  
Old 08-03-2005, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lashinka2002
In my opinion I don't think that they did very much for Diana's disorder. I don't think that they took it seriously. She really needed help, strangers off the streets would have given her more help.
I would agree with you that they probably didn't take it seriously.

This is very common in families with this disorder. The family's first reaction is that the good girl is being willful and misbehaving so they become angry. They try to pressure the woman to behave normally and that makes the situation worse. In many cases, when it doesn't work they mentally give up and pull back. Incidentally it is usually strangers of the street or someone not well known to the family that can make a difference.

As Warren says, we'll never know for sure but there are some predictable reactions based on study of families with the disorder. From what we can tell of the Royal Family's reactions it supports the theory that they acted much as other families did.

Very occasionally a woman may marry a man who has the strength to be able to take on the challenge and provide real help and comfort to his wife but that's the very rare exception not the rule. Its easy to say the Spencers and the Royals should have done better but from the little evidence we have, it seems they did what most other families faced with the situation do.

I do remember that Diana saw a therapist on the advice of the Royal Family. The Queen Mother had seen a therapist and suggested it. But not all therapists have experience with eating disorders so it may not have helped that much.
  #193  
Old 08-03-2005, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lashinka2002
Please elaborate...
I've never heard of any evidence of the beginings of Diana's eating disorders before Charles' comments and the pressure of the harsh spotlight.
I don't remember which book it was, but at least one book about her said that she started showing signs of binge eating and possibly purging while still at school. The pressures of such a high-profile engagement while she was still young would have no doubt triggered any latent tendency to bulimia, but it sounds as though it was there from her adolescence.

My understanding of a disease like bulimia and anorexia is that it would take a lot more than an off-hand comment like Charles's alleged one to create bulimia in a previously healthy person. That sounds like a bit of judicious rewriting of history to me. It's quite possible that he was dense enough to say it, but it wouldn't have been the only thing going on.
  #194  
Old 08-03-2005, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
We have no knowledge of what medical assistance was requested; we have no idea of what was discussed with the physicians and specialists who attend members of the Royal Family. As far as I know none of these doctors and specialists have published their memoirs giving details of their Royal patients, nor sold tidbits to the tabloids.

We will probably never know what assistance and treatment was offered and given to Diana in relation to her physical and emotional difficulties. As much as we would like to know all the details, not everyone tells.
.

Sir Laurens Van Der Post is not a doctor, he was Charles' philosophical guru. As to Charles reading a book on eating disorders, that has been written in several books talking about the marriage.
  #195  
Old 08-03-2005, 09:25 PM
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Lashinka, Diana was famous amongst her friends for never seeming to gain weight from the copious amounts of foods that she ate, and they noticed how after coming back from a trip how much weight she had suddenly lost (in the late seventies).

And not only are psychiatrists perplexed by Di's claims that her bulimia started all of the sudden with her marriage (as eating disorders don't just pop up at that age with no prior history of eating problems) but she said herself that her bulimia started in the mid seventies in 1997 at Roehampton Priory.

"It started because Sarah was anorexic and I idolized her so much that I wanted to be like her. I can only put it down to me wanting to emulate everything she did."

As far as Di and Charles's love, I think there was a mutual affection between the two for quite a while, dozens of pictures attest to this. But I think she was naive and in love with a Prince, someone she had idolized since she was very young, not the real man. I don't think she was deeply in love with him till the day she died, you don't wage such a holy war of slandering, propaganda and media manipulation against someone you love deeply. Not that Charles's camp didn't work hard against her too, but I don't claim that he was deeply in love with her either.

Answering yes to a proposal and getting married is optional, especially to someone who repeatedly said that she knew for sure in the months leading up to the actual marriage that she was the lamb to the slaughter.
  #196  
Old 08-04-2005, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicky
Lashinka, Diana was famous amongst her friends for never seeming to gain weight from the copious amounts of foods that she ate, and they noticed how after coming back from a trip how much weight she had suddenly lost (in the late seventies).

And not only are psychiatrists perplexed by Di's claims that her bulimia started all of the sudden with her marriage (as eating disorders don't just pop up at that age with no prior history of eating problems) but she said herself that her bulimia started in the mid seventies in 1997 at Roehampton Priory.

"It started because Sarah was anorexic and I idolized her so much that I wanted to be like her. I can only put it down to me wanting to emulate everything she did."

As far as Di and Charles's love, I think there was a mutual affection between the two for quite a while, dozens of pictures attest to this. But I think she was naive and in love with a Prince, someone she had idolized since she was very young, not the real man. I don't think she was deeply in love with him till the day she died, you don't wage such a holy war of slandering, propaganda and media manipulation against someone you love deeply. Not that Charles's camp didn't work hard against her too, but I don't claim that he was deeply in love with her either.

Answering yes to a proposal and getting married is optional, especially to someone who repeatedly said that she knew for sure in the months leading up to the actual marriage that she was the lamb to the slaughter.
And when Diana told her sisters she wanted to call it off the refrain was "Too late Duch, your face is on the tea towels now." Diana was confused and bewildered. In her naive way, she thought if she married him, he would change. A very large and naive mistake on Diana's part and all it brought her was misery. But at her age and how inexperienced she was, it is no wonder how it happened.
  #197  
Old 08-04-2005, 04:35 AM
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Doctors on call

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Sir Laurens Van Der Post is not a doctor, he was Charles' philosophical guru. As to Charles reading a book on eating disorders, that has been written in several books talking about the marriage.
That may well be true but my point is that we don't know, and probably never will know, what medical advice and treatment was sought for, or by, Diana.

One imagines that the best Harley Street specialists would be available to members of the Royal Family (and aristocratic families), and it would be unreasonable to assume that no-one from either side (Windsor or Spencer), let alone the Princess of Wales herself, would not have consulted with them at some stage. She would of course have had her personal physician; unless this doctor was negligent Diana would have been referred to appropriate specialists.
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  #198  
Old 08-04-2005, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
And when Diana told her sisters she wanted to call it off the refrain was "Too late Duch, your face is on the tea towels now." Diana was confused and bewildered. In her naive way, she thought if she married him, he would change. A very large and naive mistake on Diana's part and all it brought her was misery. But at her age and how inexperienced she was, it is no wonder how it happened.
I'm sorry, but "Too late Duch, your face is already on the tea towels," is hardly a gun to the head. And if Diana was so naive and bewildered(yet was perceptive enough to "know" she was the lamb to the slaughter and doomed) and had such unrealistic expectations about being a princess and being married to Charles, that is nobody's fault but her own. Like I said, it was optional to accept his proposal, and nobody forced her to walk down that isle.
  #199  
Old 08-04-2005, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiaraprin
Sir Laurens Van Der Post is not a doctor, he was Charles' philosophical guru. As to Charles reading a book on eating disorders, that has been written in several books talking about the marriage.
After van der Post, I think they called in a psychiatrist to Balmoral, who visited Charles and Diana, then spoke to Diana alone over a few days (trying to make an assessment I guess). Later she went to a specialist in London who prescribed pills for depression and anxiety and recommended a female friend come to Balmoral. I think Diana refused the medicine because of the baby. After the birth, she had more treatment for post natal depression.

As far as I remember bulimia wasn't generally known about in 1981. Her footman hadn't heard of it. That must have added to the confusion.
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Old 08-04-2005, 12:22 PM
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Apparently Charles brought various psychiatrists to Diana in the early years, and they did want to give her prescriptions to aid in her mood swings and self-mutilating behavior, but she was paranoid and convinced that the RF just wanted to shut her up with pills so she took nothing.
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