Charles and Camilla: Visit to Japan, Brunei & Indonesia - October 27-November 4, 2008

[Duke of Marmalade]

Didn't prince Henrik of Denmark leave his queen alone on a recent trip to Asia and returned home prematurely because of his health? I recall that nobody called him workshy but people just showed compassion.

IMO there is a difference between falling ill during a visit (Henrik suffered from brochitis in South Korea and even had to go to hospital) and skipping a part of a visit in advance because of climate concerns.

For me this is just desastrous PA and even Camilla must have understood that people will judge her on the bar her future predecessor keeps on setting at the age of 87. Ill is ill but this message comes across as "oh, it doesn't sound convenient therefore I better cut it short" without even trying. There are aircons down in Indonesia and if she doesn't feel well enough to do a jungle trip - fine but no need to cancel this part of the trip completely.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

To me it seems you want Clarence House to post all of Camilla's medical reports so you and anyone else can judge them at your leisure. Why is it so difficult to accept that not all people are the same and that while some are healthier than others and work till their old adage others can't, not because they don't want to but simply because they can't? Do cripples have to prove to you the degree of their handicap when they ask you to stand up in a train when you occupy a place reserved for disabled persons? Or is it okay if they just say they don't feel well and could they please sit on the place reserved for them?

For me the explanation that Clarence House gave is enough: Camilla has a full diary and the climate is too hot for her. So she needs a period of time to relax before the next round of events. That's an honest declaration. What more could she do except release her medical records?

Really, your reaction is very narrow-minded and I wonder if you'd find it okay if any of your indispositions at work would be publically discussed in the staff cafeteria of your employer after someone had posted his explanation of the background of your indispositions at the black board at the entrance.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Do cripples have to prove to you the degree of their handicap when they ask you to stand up in a train when you occupy a place reserved for disabled persons? Or is it okay if they just say they don't feel well and could they please sit on the place reserved for them?

This is quite an insulting interpretation of my post to be honest and has nothing to do with the message I intended to bring across.

Really, your reaction is very narrow-minded and I wonder if you'd find it okay if any of your indispositions at work would be publically discussed in the staff cafeteria of your employer after someone had posted his explanation of the background of your indispositions at the black board at the entrance.

It's my opinion Jo and if you find it narrow-minded I can live with that. I think it's wrong though to compare Camilla's terms and conditions to those of any ordinary employee or member of the public. These trips are paid for by taxpayers' money and therefore it must be allowed to voice an opinion on Camilla's or CH's attitude, whether you like it or not.

 

[Menarue]

I believe this was very bad PR. It was an unfortunate excuse, surely they could have come up with something more palatable. She seems truly to have forgotten that her lifestyle, which is far from Spartan, is being paid for by the tax-payers and I am sure that no-one would make Camilla do anything too strenuous. If she is ill, then it is better to say so but to announce before hand that she doesn´t like the heat, is a bit much. I agree wholeheartedly with what Duke has said and that remark about cripples was uncalled for, these days they are called handicapped people BTW.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

She seems truly to have forgotten that her lifestyle, which is far from Spartan, is being paid for by the tax-payers

People, please start to realise that Camilla's lifestyle is not payed for by the taxpayer. It will be once she is queen consort but as long as she is the wife of The Prince of Wales her husband pays for her private life out of his private, tax-payer independant income and funds. If they travel on duty for Britain, then of course the taxpayer pays for these travels, but the thing is that as she does not travel to Indonesia, she is actually saving the taxpayer a lot of money while she makes her husband pay for the days she is not on public duty but privately recovering in London.

It is always so easy to shout: They are living off the taxpayer so have to work! And: How dare she be ill or not longer able to do all we think is fitting for a woman in the 60ties? She must be lazy, lazy, lazy.

Come on, would you dare tell that kind of things to your mother when she decides while spending a family holiday with you that this walk is too heavy for her so you better go alone with Dad while she takes a little nap? Would you really dare telling your mother that she is just plain lazy and has to come along in order to amuse whoever has invited her to come along?

But obviously it is quite okay to tell that to a woman who never took money from you for whatever ( I don't think you're a British taxpayer) and who is so obviously supporting her husband in all things important to him that she must have a good reason not to go where he goes and help him there.

I call that lack of breeding, while IMHO a cripple is just that: a handicapped person due to the possession of crippled limbs. Sorry, but this is an English word and can be used when simply describing that this person is bodily handicapped, not mentally. IMHO, at least, judging from the usage of "cripple" in German. And believe me, I personally know a lot about people crippled by war or accidents - my uncle used to be vice-president of the Bund deutscher Kriegsversehrter which originally cared for injured soldiers but today actively supports as a charity the victims of accidents at sports who in most cases have no sufficient insurance to help cover their rehabilitation costs. Most men from my family in my father's generation were actually permanently injured as soldiers in WWII so it was quite naturally for me to volunteer at the VDK just as my son today volonteers on caring for people as member of the Maltese order's help programme.

 

[tommy1716]

Actually on this occasion the taxpayer is paying. Overseas tours are paid for by the Foreign Office, thats why CH has said that "The Government has requested...".
I think that Camilla is entitled to privacy and if she is ill then she has the right to keep that private but to be honest in looks so bad for her to not even try to finish the tour. Even if she'd gone and only done one engagment on the last leg that would be better than saying "I won't even bother trying."
Given that there is so much critisim of Camilla's percieved lack on public duties then this is very bad PR that could have been avoided. I really do wonder whether CH staff simply don't realise or whether the Prince and Duchess are just so insistent to get their own way beacause i do feel the many, many well paid staff advising them are not doing their job here.
I also wonder what message it sends out to the country she's not visiting that she's not making it?

For everyone who goes on about "her choice whether to attend or not" you are of course right, but if she can't or doesn't want to complete a tour, for what ever reason, then in my opinion she shoudn't go on any of it. I don't think she should be able to pick and choose that much.

 

[Menarue]

There are lots of words that some years back one could use without criticism. Nowadays in a politically correct world one has to chose one´s terms. It is only a word but it can offend. Of course someone who is using English as a foreign language cannot be blamed for not knowing some of these.

 

[Madame Royale]

Didn't prince Henrik of Denmark leave his queen alone on a recent trip to Asia and returned home prematurely because of his health? I recall that nobody called him workshy but people just showed compassion. Why is it that some publications are supported when claiming that she is lazy even though CH gives as explanation that the climate is too hard on her? Her surgery of last year is usually followed by hormone problems which can be controlled most of the time but can be heavy on a lady her age in a hot and humid climate. Plus problems with the cardiovascular system are observed in many cases after such a surgery which would also make travelling to such a climate more problematic as need be. Especially as the prince wants to address muslim topics and I doubt the men he is going to meet care much if presented with his lady wife or not.

I have no idea, he may have. And I know not why you refer to Henrik in this isntance as if I were expected to know what he does. Because I take an interest in his daughter in-law and her Crown Princely family doesn't necessarily mean I therefore follow her father in-law with the same enthusiasm...haha.

And the difference being, if that were the case, that at least Henrik actually made the trip before deciding upon an early departure. His reasons were medical (as you have suggested and as DofM has confirmed) and were made known as such, hence the 'compassion' you talk of, I'd imagine.

It's only been confirmed that Camilla can't be bothered with the southern heat and needs a rest before a Sunday service or two and her husbands birthday festivities...

It looks quite poorly, I'm affraid.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

For everyone who goes on about "her choice whether to attend or not" you are of course right, but if she can't or doesn't want to complete a tour, for what ever reason, then in my opinion she shoudn't go on any of it. I don't think she should be able to pick and choose that much.

You obviously have never been on any kind of "offcial tour" - it's definately no pleasure to have to fly to a foreign land, be carried around there and attend event after event, breakfast, lunches, dinners with dignitaries, always late on the time schedule with staff trying to make things work on scrapping your small leisure times pre-planned but never coming. Yes, castles and palaces and the suites of luxury hotels are nice if you stay there on holiday but on a business trip they are just places to clean yourself up, change clothes or at least renew your make-up if female and your dress handkerchief if you are a man. And off it's again, smiling and listening and appearing or even being interested (the memory of the last one helps on deciding if you accept another of "those invitations" ).

And every night you have heavy feet from standing too long or walking around admiring things you've seen before and your digestion doesn't work due to the stress of flying, travelling and the need to finish your plates at each meal in order to appear well-pleased with everything. In my case I read the programme of the proposed tour and think: yes, I want to do that. Then I read some more about the place where I would go and went there, only returning wishing that I could have seen more things and more on my own pace. And I have always travelled on trips which aimed at my professional interests and widened my professional horizont. So I feel quite lucky compared to HRH The Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall whose schedule is not determined by her personal interests but by the interests of the country she represents.

As an addition: in my field of work we say: three days travel, three days rest.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

And the difference being, if that were the case, that at least Henrik actually made the trip before deciding upon an early departure. His reasons were medical (as you have suggested and as DofM has confirmed) and were made known as such, hence the 'compassion' you talk of, I'd imagine.

It's only been confirmed that Camilla can't be bothered with the southern heat and needs a rest before a Sunday service or two and her husbands birthday festivities...

Of course it would look much better if she accepted the trip to Indonesia knowing she can't make it for medical reasons and then drop out because of an emergency while letting the British taxpayer foot the bill and her hosts be disappointed while her image remained ultra-white and people feel comapssion for her? Or she could have asked Charles to not accept such a long trip and both settled for a shorter one?

Why can't she just say, as CH did: sorry, this is too much for Camilla, so she travels home while her husband is travelling to Indonesia?

As for all those advisors, private and government ones: surely they were told that the duchess can't make it and they decided that it's better this way than any other? Why can't you simply accept that without blaming Camilla for not being perfect?

 

[Boris]

# 1: Clarence House has dealt abysmally with this trip so far, IMHO.
An official statement (all following quotes from The Times article) including a description of Indonesia as having an "arduous climate" is less than diplomatic towards the host. The wording that "The Duchess needs a bit of time to catch her breath" before her husband’s birthday is unfortunate since the celebrations are on the 13th and 14th of November, so there would be plenty of time to catch a few breaths. And stating "These things cost what they cost" comes across as downright arrogant.
Whoever made these statements – and whoever allowed them to be made and therefore takes responsibility – handles the issue very unprofessionally and actually invites speculation and criticism.
# 2: The British tax payer is indeed paying fort this trip abroad, not the Duchy of Cornwall.
# 3: Regarding the use of words, in both countries I have lived in, Germany and the USA, Krüppel / cripple is definitely seen as a derogatory way to describe a handicapped person.

 

[msleiman]

This is the job that she took on when she married the POW! Sorry but she will have to go the HOT places, and she will have to travel to places that she may not like! Maybe she should have thought about this before taken on the job! The way that some of you are talking about her, you would think that she is 90 years old! The heat does not seem to bother her when she is on vacations! BTW, how much longer will the surgery be a reason for not doing her duties!

 

[Madame Royale]

Of course it would look much better if she accepted the trip to Indonesia knowing she can't make it for medical reasons and then drop out because of an emergency while letting the British taxpayer foot the bill and her hosts be disappointed while her image remained ultra-white and people feel comapssion for her? Or she could have asked Charles to not accept such a long trip and both settled for a shorter one?

Why can't she just say, as CH did: sorry, this is too much for Camilla, so she travels home while her husband is travelling to Indonesia?

As for all those advisors, private and government ones: surely they were told that the duchess can't make it and they decided that it's better this way than any other?

But you're basing your responses on an assumption you have made. You do not know if it's due to medical resons or not. You surmising as such and that cannot give credence to the argument. A possibility? Certainly. A fact? No.

If her hysterectomy was confirmed prior to the actual procedure (or there abouts), then why should it be be such an issue to admit to any related hindrance which would deter the Duchess from continuing the tour if that were the case? Is it anyones business really? No. But would it be met with understanding in comparison to the alternative. I'd have thought so, yes.

It looks pretty poor, I'm affraid, to suggest her absence is the result of being in need of a break before a long weekend...

Why can't you simply accept that without blaming Camilla for not being perfect

Talk about exaggeration. There's no need for that. And given I've not uttered a damning attack against the Duchess or her official duties, ever, I think the above statement quite futile and without cause.

 

[Al_bina]

The Sultan of Brunei and the Prince of Wales are friends of long-standing and any gift of jewellery (if there is one) will be a personal gesture on behalf of the Sultan.
Queen Elizabeth generally offers signed and framed photographs as official (as opposed to personal) gifts.

I just hope that Prince Charles gives adequate presents in return for jewellery.
As for Duchess of Cornwall cutting the trip short, I share opinions of those members, who stated that she should not have gone on this trip at all. I wonder whether or not she can fully retire from performing official duties. I dare to say that she tends to lack a star power of her predecessor. Prince Charles can carry official engagements by himself as Crown Prince Naruhito currently does.

 

[milla Ca]

Sorry, but i can´t understand all this fuss and excitement here.

Camilla will take part at 2/3 of this trip and the leave, maybe to spend the week doing some preparations for her husbands 60th birthday.
Is it so awful ?

Clarence House has given ( a honest, i think ) explanation why she will not join Charles for these last four days.
Is it so terrible?

Haven´t we seen other Princes ( and Heirs) doing official trips without their wives?

Why do so many here criticize Camilla this hard way only when not every of her steps is perfect?

Let her show some human sides, give her some credit for her job, she deseves it !

 

[Madame Royale]

maybe to spend the week doing some preparations for her husbands 60th birthday. Is it so awful ?

That's why you prepare before you leave on a foreign tour, I'd have thought...

And no, it's not so awful if she were to do that. Though that would not be viewed as a committed approach either and many would, inevitably, see it that way.

 

[Menarue]

Her job is to represent Britain with her husband. Perhaps Clarence House was too honest about her reason for not making the whole tour. There is some criticism of the two lavish parties she is supposed to be giving for her husband´s birthday, as in case anyone hasn´t noticed, there is a grave economic crisis going on.
We have seen many Princes doing official trips without their wives but not many have their wives announce they won´t be completing the trip because it is too hot and arduous and that they want to rest before some parties.
It may be just bad PR, and it might seem to be a perfectly reasonable excuse as far as Prince Charles and Camilla are concerned but for the tax payer footing the bill it might not be such a good idea to be so honest.
I like Camilla, I didn´t think I would before their marriage but she and Prince Charles seem to get on so well that I have warmed to her considerably.
But, if she wasn´t up to carrying out the duties of the wife of the Prince of Wales perhaps she should have stayed his confidant, that way she could have enjoyed his company and not have to carry out arduous royal duties.

 

[pamk]

Duchess of Cornwall will cut short ‘arduous’ royal tour - Times Online

It's not very sensitive to give hot weather or a full diary as an excuse - if there is another health related background they should be honest about it -, especially not when there are inlaws who keep on showing an iron attitude despite being well in their 80ies.

Camilla should get her act together, this won't help her reputation at all. Yes, the climate is not nice and a 62 year might feel the strain but it is part of her job. What kind of message is she sending out in times like these where people are losing their jobs? C & C are being pampered during this trip as much as possible anyway - on other people's expenses - and then go and say, no sorry it's too hot, I'll cut it short?

If C & C want to survive as monarchs they will have to work on their attitude and media relations big time - currently they don't have the right strategy to convince people of their capabilities, I'd say.

Thank you, Duke of Marmalade. I feel like I have opened a real can of worms here and am getting blasted.
You have a very calm perspective of the whole brouhaha.

 

[Skydragon]

For me this is just desastrous PA and even Camilla must have understood that people will judge her on the bar her future predecessor keeps on setting at the age of 87. Ill is ill but this message comes across as "oh, it doesn't sound convenient therefore I better cut it short" without even trying. There are aircons down in Indonesia and if she doesn't feel well enough to do a jungle trip - fine but no need to cancel this part of the trip completely.

That is only the way it comes across tp those who wish to find fault, IMO. Most of the British public want CH to tell them the truth, not spin after spin and when they do some go... it's bad PR. Camilla hasn't said it doesnt sound convenient, she has admitted a human failing - trouble with the heat, just like many women of her age, especially ex smokers! Indonesia is mainly a muslim country and it may be that it would have limited Charles' activities if Camilla was also in attendance.
----------------------
Camilla is giving ONE party for her husband, HM has insisted on the other, being paid for by HM, not taxpayers but, both have to be organised and checked upon. It is no good coming back a couple of days before and finding mistakes that could be hard to rectify.

Yes, the taxpayer is paying for the trip, but Charles is paying for her return flight, therefore she is saving the taxpayer money by stating she is leaving early, rather then decide once she is out there!

It is strange that those who shout for honesty from the PR people, are now complaining when they are told the truth.

 

[Al_bina]

As usually the Clarence House showed incompetence in dealing with the public opinion. Nothing surprising here... I do not understand how Duchess of Cornwall's presence would have limited activities of Prince Charles in Indonesia.

 

[Skydragon]

As usually the Clarence House showed incompetence in dealing with the public opinion. Nothing surprising here... I do not understand how Duchess of Cornwall's presence would have limited activities of Prince Charles in Indonesia.

Incompetent to be honest, that does surprise me!

 

[COUNTESS]

Maybe, that is why she wants to be "Princess Consort", as she does half a job. As for the parties, it is their right to have them. Camilla doesn't have to rush home to make food or clean up the house. Someone is overseeing this, probably, many. 61 is hardly old. People who are older can do as much or more. Snmoking doesn't enfeeble you after you quit. Yes, it takes its toll, but that was her foolishness. I never heard of anyone who couldn't stand the heat because they used to smoke. And, as Harry Truman said, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

 

[Al_bina]

I have stated the same on multiple occasions and stand by my opinion. Clarence House has not got a tight grip over any situation. You have called it democracy, by the way. Thus, Clarence House and other parties involved should not be surprised at having a democratically unfavourable opinion. It is sad, when ordinary people fail to understand the human side of royals ...
Still ... how might the presence of Duchess of Cornwall limit activities of Prince Charles in Indonesia?

 

[tommy1716]

It’s not that we are being told the truth that we are complaining about, it’s the fact that the truth seems to be a flimsy excuse. I still believe that if Camilla doesn't want to attend one part of a trip then she shouldn't attend the entire event. This is because it could be seen by some, here and overseas, as being an insult to the host country.
Many people will also see this as a prime example of Camilla's either inability (through health reasons) or lack of desire to perform public engagements.
It is true to say that Camilla has enjoyed several holidays to hot climates since her operation and on so it strikes as a bit hypocritical to now say the climate is too hot. In my own opinion Camilla should do one of three things:
1) Stop performing any engagements all together (like the Duchess of Kent)
2) Perform engagements in the acceptable climate of the UK only
3) carry out a full diary of engagments, at home and overseas, completing all tours in full.
Like many others have said, I have come to very much like Camilla since her marriage and I think so much more could be made of her in promoting Britain and various charities, and I accept she works hard when she does perform engagements. I too feel sorry for her in having parents in laws who work exceptionally hard for their age which adds pressure to her.
The reason this incident is so annoying is because it seems Camilla isn't putting in a full effort as she should. Most people have accepted that Camilla performs a relatively small number of UK engagements and (in the past) accompanies her husband on his overseas tours. If she can't do this a new role should perhaps be found for her.
And last time I checked this was a forum to discuss in a reasonable and valid manner, Royal Families and their work, not a forum to simply fawn over them. We are expressing opinions and thoughts which we have every right to do.

 

[GrandDuchess]

Just wanted to chime in and say that I agree with a lot of what's been said already, it is really embarrassing to be reading these comments and the Prince's staff is really calling upon us to ridicule them... Not only does her mother in law the Queen and her husband the Duke of Edinburgh work more in a year (and they are both 80+, Philip is nearly 90), but when I was thinking that they were grooming Camilla to become Queen one day and rooting for more support by their activities- and then they do this! How completely and utterly stupid!

How fun can it be for the diplomats to maintain the two countries diplomatic relations after reading a statement like this? And number of engagements, I would say that the Queen and Prince Philip probably work at least twice as hard as Camilla, they even do state visits abroad at their advanced ages!

then go on to Indonesia without her because of the difficult conditions and the number of engagements already in her diary. (The Times)

And then this:

“the couple would have a busy Remembrance Sunday weekend upon their return, and then the celebrations of the Prince’s 60th birthday", the spokesman added. “The Duchess needs a bit of time to catch her breath,” he said. (The Times)

Who's birthday is it? Not Camilla's for heavens sake! If the birthday boy and future king can cope doing this trip before his own birthday bash then so can Camilla! Besides, the birthday festivities aren't until 13-14 November, which means that there's more than a week between coming home and partying.... It's not like Milla needs to go home and scrub the house for a week or anything

 

[Skydragon]

------As for the parties, it is their right to have them. Camilla doesn't have to rush home to make food or clean up the house. Someone is overseeing this, probably, many. 61 is hardly old. People who are older can do as much or more. Snmoking doesn't enfeeble you after you quit. ------.

No she hasn't got to prepare the food or lay the tables, but overseeing the organisation of a private party is an accepted and essential role for the host.

Smoking can and does affect you for years, sometimes permanently. The damage to the lungs and heart can be severe. The myth that if you give up, all will be well, has been proven wrong by research, that is why even if you gave up 5 years ago, UK hospitals still treat you as a smoker when administering anaesthetics. Lungs damaged by smoking remain damages!

 

[Skydragon]

And last time I checked this was a forum to discuss in a reasonable and valid manner,

Isn't it a great pity then, that some seize the opportunity to let their dislike of Charles and Camilla flavour their post?

It is true to say that Camilla has enjoyed several holidays to hot climates since her operation and on so it strikes as a bit hypocritical to now say the climate is too hot.

May I ask if you have been to the Caribean and Indonesia? The climates are both hot, but a different type of heat and humility IMO, from personal experience. The same way that the snow in Iceland is totally different from the snow we get in the UK.

 

[tommy1716]

Yes it is a shame. Like I said i like Camilla, i just think she is badly advised and prehaps on this has made an error of judgement. Its not like i'm saying she should be shot or anything. It seems to me that there are three type of people on this board, those who adore Camilla and think she can do no wrong, those who loath her and all she stands for, and then those, like me and the vast majority who are in the middle, who look at each topic and event with a reasoned and level view yet end up get slated by each of the other two sides.

 

[COUNTESS]

So, then, then only post should be wow, what a great couple. There really doesn't need to be any discussion, just an overwhelming amount of posts saying how wonderful, how great, how grand. Should you want to point out anything to the other side, best well kept to yourself. tommy1716 has the right, as others to see things differently.

 

[Little_star]

Indonesia is mainly a muslim country and it may be that it would have limited Charles' activities if Camilla was also in attendance.

That is absolutely absurd. They've visited many muslim countreis as a couple and Camilla has never been "limited" in terms of what she does.

The idea that she would be there is pretty insulting to the Indonesians imo.....

The myth that if you give up, all will be well, has been proven wrong by research, that is why even if you gave up 5 years ago, UK hospitals still treat you as a smoker when administering anaesthetics. Lungs damaged by smoking remain damages!

Actually that's not entirely correct. It's partly for insurance purposes but primarily because of the fact that smokers are never really viewed as fully "recovered".