Charles and Camilla: The Marriage (2005 and on)


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We seem to be straying from the topic into the dangerous waters of the Charles-Camilla-Diana triangle again.
 
One might have thought, Elspeth, that with a topic such as 'the marriage',that this may well have been inevitable? Not to worry, I'll go away.
 
The entire situation could have been avoided had Charles been permitted to marry Camilla much earlier. But he wasn't, and he lacked the spine in those days to press his desires. I contrast him to the last Tsar of Russia, who in spite of being considered weak, simply refused to give up his intended and life-long love, Alix of Hesse. One can say "well, good Lord, look how that ended!" but in fact, their love and devotion in spite of their incredibly ineptitude in ruling is unquestioned. One might also compare Norway's royal family. The current King, Harald V, waited through nine years of dating Sonja Haraldsen before becoming engaged to her, willing to wait out whatever time was necessary.

So Charles didn't marry her then, didn't wait out opposition, did not proffer a counter, and as a result and nearly three decades later, two families were torn apart.

Oh, I know, a certain faction will say that if Diana had just not made a "big deal" about his mistress, then the marriages would not have ended. Well, she had the right to expect him to live up to vows that he made in front of a Vicar of Christ and a phenomenal world-wide audience. He ended their marriage the first time he had sexual intercourse outside of their marriage. Diana's affairs thereafter were after the vows had been broken.

The thread asks if not Camilla, then was the choice of Diana as a wife, a moot point: whether any marriage to anyone not Camilla was doomed to end badly, even if not in divorce. I say yes. Charles, while not strong enough to stand up and take her as his bride in earlier days, was equally not strong enough to completely cut ties with Mrs. Parker Bowles, to the detriment of her life with her husband. Had he had a shred of respect for APB, he would not have clung to the wife of APB with such an iron grip, whenever the sexual aspect of the relationship resumed.

I don't think anyone else mattered to Charles except Charles. Camilla was necessary for Charles To Survive, and thus he smothered her marriage to APB in its toddlerhood, and any marriage to any other woman in its infancy.

Charles bears all responsibilty in the byzantine tragedy that has resulted, and Charles alone. The women in this situation - Diana and Camilla, primarily, but the Queen and Queen Mother as well - are like cyphers, archetypes, or cards in a playing deck, for all that he cared about them as individuals. Each of them, in his estimation, existed solely for the role that they played in his life, for him.

So my final analysis in this matter is that in fact, it didn't matter who Charles married once he was denied initial marriage to Camilla. The fact that he has married her now impresses me very little. The fact that he carried on a 30-year affair with her after she was married suggests to me that some DNA testing is required and not on Harry of Wales, either; if this is the love story across decades, then let's call it like it is.

No, no woman matters to Charles except as it pertains to her usefulness to Charles. That is not to say that he does not believe himself to feel love for Camilla, nor that I believe that he did not feel love for Diana.

So, in light of that assertion, then I believe any marriage between Charles and anyone not Charles (and who did not buy into the idea that existing for Charles was Everything and All) was doomed. Smothered, as I said earlier on, in its infancy.
 
Perhaps Charles should just take to roaming the streets while scourging himself with chains and demanding that people stone him publicly.
 
Perhaps Charles should just take to roaming the streets while scourging himself with chains and demanding that people stone him publicly.

For some people even that wouldn't be enough!
 
One might have thought, Elspeth, that with a topic such as 'the marriage',that this may well have been inevitable? Not to worry, I'll go away.

Well, it sort of depends what VuMom had in mind when asking the question. I think she's asking whether Charles and Camilla would have married earlier if there hadn't been a requirement for him to marry someone like Diana (if he married at all). I think it's really hard to say, because he was in the Navy and she, by all accounts, was in a serious relationship with Andrew Parker Bowles and didn't have ambitions to be a royal wife (although she did appear to have ambitions to be a royal mistress if it's true that her first words to Charles were an invitation to repeat history!). The trouble is that there was this requirement for Charles to marry a sweet young daughter of the top drawer of the aristocracy, and he knew it, and everybody else knew it, and that coloured what happened in reality.
 
I think both the styles of Lord Mountbatten and Prince Philips towards their wives have shaped Prince Charles's attitudes towards women. Women are delightful creatures and he can appreciate their wisdoms and strengths in different aspects. But for him his wife still has to walk in his shadow and play a role of a supporting wife, a fun companion, a sympathic ear, and a digified and dutiful consort. Diana does not suit Charles exactly that she was looking for her own identity and her own position more that Charle's wife, and I don't think Camilla want to be more Charles's lawful wife.

Charles is a man who brought up under the idea of traditional male dominated family style and so does Camilla. She can always let Charles play the domance role despite Camilla is the tougher one of the two. From what I read, both Diana's mother and her stepmother dominated her father and I assume that Diana was not used to the very male dominated family. I don't think Charles has a very strong character but he would want to be the leader of his householder as well as the husband-wife team. Camilla is always willing to play the second but I doubt Diana can ever do that. Camilla strikes me as a very domestic person and certainly she can let Charles play a more public role while she support him behind the scenes.
 
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Well, from my certain knowledge, the Spencers were already close to the throne. Indeed, like many aristocrats in the UK, they thought themselves somewhat superior to the throne and its family, as, indeed, in an historical sense they were.

ah, again this disregard for the female line and inheritance through a grandmother, not a grandfather.... :flowers:

But I write it again. Elizabeth Stuart, daughter of James VI./I., born a princess of Scotland and becoming a princess of England after her father inherited the English crown from Elizabeth I., was queen of Bohemia and the mother of the electress Sophia and grandmother of George I. George's father, prince elector of Hannover, was the Head of the oldest European Royal family, the Welfs - they can prove that they ruled since the 800s as independent rules somewhere (not only Hannover, but Bavaria, Saxony , Bohemia, as Guelfs in Italy etc.)

So where is the "historical sense" that the Spencers were ever superior to that august ancestry?
 
The entire situation could have been avoided had Charles been permitted to marry Camilla much earlier. But he wasn't, and he lacked the spine in those days to press his desires.

I don't think Charles wanted to marry Camilla at all when he was young. There are different kinds of love and friendship and I don't believe that Charles was interested in Camilla then as a woman, rather in her as a friend. Charles in these years wanted to have fun, he was finally free of his father's ideas of education, was beyond his cadet years in the military and had just taken over the management of his duchy. No need to set up his nursery yet, his mother was still young and he had two brothers and a sister.

He was enjoying his life and Camilla as well as some other ladies and their husbands obviously were the right companions at this stage of his life. There surely was a deep affection for Camilla, but love? I doubt it. I doubt that he had an idea whatever love means. I doubt he had an idea whatever being "in love" means. He had an idea, of course, what duty he owned his country and that one day marriage would be inevitable.

Which didn't probably soun too bad: the marriages he saw around him were rather comfortably allowing the partners a kind of personal freedom about work and life while sharing common interests and family.

Charles really was a man of the 50ties and 60ties. As were his firends. How could he understand the change in the way women thought from the 70ties onwards?

Diana wanted it all and Charles was not able to give her what she wanted. So it began... Charles was disappointed and his friends were there to comfort him, as they as well were unable to understand Diana. Add Diana's mood swings and you get the cocktail that led to the seperation and divorce.

I doubt Charles and Camilla wanted to marry at all. As long as Diana was alive, this would have been impossible, IMHO. But Charles wanted Camilla more and more by his side and as this turned out to be difficult according to protocoll, and Diana was dead, the idea of marriage came up. Then Charles started to fight for an equal marriage. I doubt he and Camilla have problems with the Duchess of Cornwall-title as long as Camilla is HRH.

I doubt Camilla wants the Royal attributes, but both she and Charles want to be able to attend the same events, use the same car, sleep in the same bed and simply be together and live together openly. Maybe Camilla's health played a role in this - maybe (but that's mere speculation) they realised how short life can be and how much they want to be together and not seperated due to protocoll.

As long as Camilla is Charles' wife and can live openly with him, it doesn't matter to her if she will be queen or princess consort. She will have the position as the First Lady, no matter what her title.

I for one am glad they managed to get their wish and can live as husband and wife in public and private. As for Diana: may she rest in peace.
 
The fact that he carried on a 30-year affair with her after she was married suggests to me that some DNA testing is required and not on Harry of Wales, either; if this is the love story across decades, then let's call it like it is.

Well, if Charles ever creates Tom Parker Bowles a duke with the family name of "Fitzroy", we'll know....:flowers:
 
Ah, well, both of Camilla's children look a great deal like her but also like their legal father. And as for William and Harry, they too look too much like both Windsor and Spencer to have Shand blood.... :) And of course Diana certainly gave birth to them.
 
There are much rumours about Tom and Laura. I´ve no doubt about their father, too. But what is trying to hide: Tom´s third name is Charles...:lol:
 
There are much rumours about Tom and Laura. I´ve no doubt about their father, too. But what is trying to hide: Tom´s third name is Charles...:lol:

I can see the joke :lol: but all the same, Tom really looks a lot like both his parents and nothing at all like Charles. I think in any case that the issue was addressed in the media a long time ago and it was concluded that the time of Tom's conception, Charles was on a tour of duty in the navy! :D
 
There are much rumours about Tom and Laura. I´ve no doubt about their father, too. But what is trying to hide: Tom´s third name is Charles...:lol:

Charles is his godfather and was a friend of both Tom's parents so why not name their son after a good friend whom they regarded well enough to put into the position of godfather to their beloved son.
 
Wouldn't that be a hoot...:D

Yes, it would be funny. I have thought about Tom middle name and that he was godson of Charles and wonder about his birthright. Charles gave a lot of money to Tom and Laura after he married Camilla. I also wonder about that.:flowers:
 
Charles set-up trust funds for Tom and Laura before he married Camilla. This was likely done to ensure they would not have a claim on the royal estate for support of any kind in the future once Camilla and he married.
 
Prince Charles’ grown-up stepchildren are not capable of earning their living?! :eek: Have the children of Duchess of Cornwall got any legal grounds to claim financial support from the British Royal Family?
 
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i believe that charles suffered (for lack of a better term) of a form of the madonna/whore syndrome. he needed a wife a that was virginal, aristocratic, would do fulfill her role as POW and never say boo but he wanted a mistress that would fulfill his needs and desires. this whole scenario was encouraged by mountbatten.
 
Prince Charles’ grown-up stepchildren are not capable of earning their living?! :eek: Have the children of Duchess of Cornwall got any legal grounds to claim financial support from the British Royal Family?

The 1 million pound trust funds that Charles gave Tom and Laura are rumor only, not fact. IIRC CH denied it. Tom in an interview has also denied the trust funds. IMO Tom is a pretty forthright type of guy.He seems to take advantage of his book interviews to set the record straight on things that have appeared and aren't true. Maybe Charles did give them trust funds but I don't think Tom would have made such a point of denying them.

Tom is a food writer for the Daily Mail/ Tatler and now is on a show called Market Kitchen. (Has anyone seen the show?) He has also written two books on food. In addition, He has an interest in Quintessentially( it's lifestyle management company)

Laura runs a an art gallery named Eleven. She married well. Her husband Harry Lopes will inherit Gnaton Hall in Devon.

Why would Tom and Laura make claims for financial support from the RF?
Overall they have been well behaved. They aren't desperate for money and Camilla is wealthy in her right now due to Charles, I am sure Camilla or Andrew would help them if the situation arose.
 
Prince Charles’ grown-up stepchildren are not capable of earning their living?! :eek: Have the children of Duchess of Cornwall got any legal grounds to claim financial support from the British Royal Family?

If it is true with these trust funds than it is from the privat money of a stepfather who loves his stepchildren and not ´money from the Royal Family´.
Tom is a successfull author, Laura has a gallery in London, i don´t think that they have to live off someone.
 
ah, again this disregard for the female line and inheritance through a grandmother, not a grandfather.... :flowers:

But I write it again. Elizabeth Stuart, daughter of James VI./I., born a princess of Scotland and becoming a princess of England after her father inherited the English crown from Elizabeth I., was queen of Bohemia and the mother of the electress Sophia and grandmother of George I. George's father, prince elector of Hannover, was the Head of the oldest European Royal family, the Welfs - they can prove that they ruled since the 800s as independent rules somewhere (not only Hannover, but Bavaria, Saxony , Bohemia, as Guelfs in Italy etc.)

So where is the "historical sense" that the Spencers were ever superior to that august ancestry?

Oh, I absolutely agree. Nonetheless, the Salic Law has little to do with Great Britain which has enjoyed the benefits of honouring and valuing more than one Queen.

As for the Electress Sophia and her progeny: well, so far as I'm aware, the difficulty, to which a great many objected, was that her heirs were selected only because they were Protestant. Alternatively, of course, there were many Protestants who objected to George I on the basis that he was only 50th (or somewhere around that) in line to the throne, and, it must be said, was immensely unpopular. George I was also regarded as being exceptionally coarse and vulgar, uncouth and very smelly! Invited to be King of England, he didn't even bother to learn one word of the language, not even 'yes' and 'no' - consider this, against those people who criticise and rail against Mary of Denmark for her far from pefect Danish accent!

Sophia and her offspring had another, insurmountable problem: they were not regarded as being sufficiently English. Never have been, to this day! Elsewhere in Europe they manage their affairs, no doubt, as best they may, and according to their own needs and priorities. In England, I dare say, many thought likewise, but George I fell far short of expectations. What his Kingship did accomplish, however, was to ensure that Parliament and the cabinet system became all important in the governance of the land, which may well have been the desired and surreptitious outcome, all along.

The Spencer family, like many other comfortably imbued noble families, had a prestigious British lineage. It is not too surprising that they, amongst others, developed a belief that they were, in their own country, worth more to the nation than an imposed and exceptionally unpopular monarch. The Georges, 1 - 4, fell far short of monarchial prestige, and not one of them excited the nation or engendered any of the support and loyalty which we can all easily and readily ascribe to, say, Elizabeth II, today. They were, without exception, ugly, greedy, gross and vain, and rather stupid, as well.

It's also why I think that the Queen of Australia is a neat number and a great Lady. She's successfully discounted all of this awful, historical baggage pertaining to her ghastly and unworthy ancestors and made her realms very much her own.
 
The Georges, 1 - 4, fell far short of monarchial prestige, and not one of them excited the nation or engendered any of the support and loyalty which we can all easily and readily ascribe to, say, Elizabeth II, today. They were, without exception, ugly, greedy, gross and vain, and rather stupid, as well.

Interesting -- where'd you get this information. The only thing I remember is that most of them seemed to have terrible relationships with their parents.
 
Oh, I absolutely agree. Nonetheless, the Salic Law has little to do with Great Britain which has enjoyed the benefits of honouring and valuing more than one Queen.

As for the Electress Sophia and her progeny: well, so far as I'm aware, the difficulty, to which a great many objected, was that her heirs were selected only because they were Protestant. Alternatively, of course, there were many Protestants who objected to George I on the basis that he was only 50th (or somewhere around that) in line to the throne, and, it must be said, was immensely unpopular.

Well, parliament at that time didn't want catholic heirs, that's for sure. After they deposed James II., the throne went to his daughters and his nephew. marriage. But there this branch of the Stuarts ended - and the alternative (of course excluding both James' (Old and Young Pretender) and Bonnie Prince Charlie) to George was catholic Anne Maria, princess d'Orleans and grand-fille of France, married duchess of Savoy and queen of Sicily, wife of Victor Amadeus of Savoy, king of Sicily and future king of Sardinia. Even if Anne Marie's mother Henrietta of England had not forfeited her rights to the UK-thrones due to her marriage contract, I doubt the newly crowned king of Sicily would have loved to see his wife and firstborn son gone to London for good (ääähmmm, ruling there...)

So, there was not that much alternative to Sophia of Hanover (she died only shortly before queen Anne, thus her son inherited), who was next after Anne Marie d'Orleans if we don't take catholic Elisabeth Charlotte d'Orléans, born Princess Palatine, into account, Anne Marie's stepmother and born as grandchild of Elizabeth Stuart by her firstborn son, the prince elector of the Palatinate - Sophia of Hannover was her aunt, born a princess of the Palatinate as well. Elisabeth Charlotte could have been queen of the UK from 1714 to 1722 - and her son and heir would have been the prince regent of France of that time, having to hold both the posts of regent of France and king of the UK for a year, till Louis XV. became of age... what a choice.

So if look at it this way, Sophia Princess Palatine, married Princess Electress of Hannover was a much better choice for the British parliament than her niece and grand-niece.
 
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I don't think Charles wanted to marry Camilla at all when he was young................................
Diana wanted it all and Charles was not able to give her what she wanted. So it began...

This makes sense -- young people in-love stick to each other like crazy glue. There is no way to pry them apart. If Charles had really loved Camilla back then, he would have married her no matter what anyone said. Charles certainly shows that he is perfectly capable of doing what he wants with little regard to propriety or the expectations of anyone else.

Furthermore, I think Charles did fall madly in love with Diana, as everyone did, and she rejected him first and early on -- probably even before the marriage. I've often suspected this because:

1) Look at Diana's subsequent boyfriends. It's easy to see what her type was, and it was not Charles's type.

2) Diana's mother wasn't keen on her getting married. She asked her if she loved Charles or if she loved becoming the Princess of Wales, and Diana replied something like what's the difference?

3) During Charles and Diana's wedding, both Queen Elizabeth and Diana's mother looked grim and unhappy, which supports the above scenario.

4) Later on, Charles's family and friends became exceptionally spiteful and nasty towards Diana, which is something that normally doesn't happen to a loving wife who has been spurned by her husband.

5) The lack of any evidence of remorse or guilt by Charles and Camilla and what their affair had done to Diana has always been somewhat puzzling. Could it be they both know their affair took hold when picking up the shattered pieces after Diana had already moved on?

6) The seemingly easy acceptance of Charles and Camilla by William and Harry is also somewhat puzzling.


So what is more preferable: a cheating Prince of Wales or a cuckolded Prince of Wales? No doubt, Charles's pride wanted to at least appear to emulate the history of other Princes of Wales, so a bit of spinning started..............

As the PR genius she was suppose to be, would Diana ever have admitted she never really loved Charles? Never. But she would protest her love -- a little too much.
 
I think this is an interesting topic that can never really go anywhere because we are all playing the "what if" game.
Charles was a bit of playboy back in the day and I think that when he met Camilla he liked her a lot, they got on well, and there was an instant chemistry. BUT, he just wasn't ready to give "it all up" for one woman. So, she got irked and married APB. She wanted a family and didn't want to wait around and APB probably really loved her and she loved him, too. This was several years before Charles got married. But, everyone was driving Charles mad telling him to get married, produce an heir, etc... but she had to meet the criteria. In pops Diana. Now, I have to say, that Diana was beautiful--especially in her younger days. She had a softness to her that make her look almost fairy tale like. I love those pictures of her up until after Harry's birth--maybe its because her hair was longer and fluffier--anyway......
I think it would have been hard for Charles to not love Diana and want to help her. I think what zhontella has a strong point with her post, a very strong point. Diana's fairytale became a job--really. Being in the BRF is a job, and the bubble burst. And, we all know she was prone to hysterics, eating disorsders, etc....now, this should have been handled better than it was ...but Charles did not grow up with a lot of sympathy, so she wasn't going to get that from him!
I think, for me, they were just too different and she was just too young to understand what she was really marrying into--the weights and responsibilities. To a young girl, marrying the PoW is romantic and exciting--not a lot of public responsibilites. She was disappointed. It's sad--because seh really had charisma, and he did, too. They were a good team in the beginning.
It was a different time them, I don't think Charles would ever have been allowed to marry Camilla then. Maybe he would have had a different, older wife who just turned a blind eye (such as Queen Alexandra did) and they would have had a comfortable marriage and Camilla would have always been a mistress. BUT, I like it that they married each other in the end. That "true love conquers all" is a fairytale in its own right.
 
This makes sense -- young people in-love stick to each other like crazy glue. There is no way to pry them apart. If Charles had really loved Camilla back then, he would have married her no matter what anyone said. Charles certainly shows that he is perfectly capable of doing what he wants with little regard to propriety or the expectations of anyone else.

Furthermore, I think Charles did fall madly in love with Diana, as everyone did, and she rejected him first and early on -- probably even before the marriage. I've often suspected this because:

1) Look at Diana's subsequent boyfriends. It's easy to see what her type was, and it was not Charles's type.

2) Diana's mother wasn't keen on her getting married. She asked her if she loved Charles or if she loved becoming the Princess of Wales, and Diana replied something like what's the difference?

3) During Charles and Diana's wedding, both Queen Elizabeth and Diana's mother looked grim and unhappy, which supports the above scenario.

4) Later on, Charles's family and friends became exceptionally spiteful and nasty towards Diana, which is something that normally doesn't happen to a loving wife who has been spurned by her husband.

5) The lack of any evidence of remorse or guilt by Charles and Camilla and what their affair had done to Diana has always been somewhat puzzling. Could it be they both know their affair took hold when picking up the shattered pieces after Diana had already moved on?

6) The seemingly easy acceptance of Charles and Camilla by William and Harry is also somewhat puzzling.


So what is more preferable: a cheating Prince of Wales or a cuckolded Prince of Wales? No doubt, Charles's pride wanted to at least appear to emulate the history of other Princes of Wales, so a bit of spinning started..............

As the PR genius she was suppose to be, would Diana ever have admitted she never really loved Charles? Never. But she would protest her love -- a little too much.

this is a very interesting scenario. never really thought of it this but it does make some sense. i don't know if diana actually loved charles in the romantic sense as much as she loved the idea of being a princess. i think she knew her greatest strength lay in her ability to comfort and this life would provide ample opportunity to be able to put those strengths to use. i especially like your point about her PR geniousness and the admission of never loving him would have been a bad PR move on her part. in an earlier thread here in the forum somewhere i'd mentioned that i didn't think she was such PR genious in so much as most of her good press was a lot good luck and timing but i'm seeing more proof of her PR skills.

i think the Queen's "grim" look at the wedding was the fact that she knew it probably wasn't a good match but then again HM is a master at keeping her emotions in check and not showing them in public.

as for diana's taste in men her personality shows that she constantly needed to hear that she was doing good and she i think she thought these men would fill that need. as for charles, he wanted the same thing in that he needed a mother figure and diana certainly didn't have the emotional where withall to provide that because she was so needy herself.
 
Well, it sort of depends what VuMom had in mind when asking the question. I think she's asking whether Charles and Camilla would have married earlier if there hadn't been a requirement for him to marry someone like Diana (if he married at all). I think it's really hard to say, because he was in the Navy and she, by all accounts, was in a serious relationship with Andrew Parker Bowles and didn't have ambitions to be a royal wife (although she did appear to have ambitions to be a royal mistress if it's true that her first words to Charles were an invitation to repeat history!). The trouble is that there was this requirement for Charles to marry a sweet young daughter of the top drawer of the aristocracy, and he knew it, and everybody else knew it, and that coloured what happened in reality.

That is what I meant. :flowers:

I;d like to think, perhaps it's silly, that if so many people had not been forcing Charles to be something he was not romance wise, he and Camilla would have been together earlier. Whether it be marriage or a type of public campionship.
 
As an American, I probably shouldn't be saying this, but George III, was neither stupid nor gross and vain. He became mentally ill. He loved his wife and children. His illness caused him and the nation great problems.
 
As an American, I probably shouldn't be saying this, but George III, was neither stupid nor gross and vain. He became mentally ill. He loved his wife and children. His illness caused him and the nation great problems.

I guess he was ok as a family man, but the way he kept his daughters virtual prisoners always bothers me a bit. :eek:
 
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